What constitutes cheating?

[karndav]

Hi! I am new to all this and I was wondering if anyone could give me some advice with some questions I have been struggling with the past few months. Is cybering without your spouse's or partner's knowledge cheating? How about an online letter writing relationship or phone sex? What about if your spouse had met someone online and developed a friendship with them (nonsexual) and kept it secret from you for many years. (four to be exact) These are what I have just recently discovered my husband has been doing. He became addicted to the cybering. He has not been online chatting since I found out two months ago although he still comes to this site to read the stories that are posted. (That never bothered me) I caught him cybering a few years ago and I thought it stopped. I felt like I had been cheated on. We are working on the trust issues because I love my husband very much and am committed to my marriage. Since this has happened I have tried to become very open sexually, trying many more things, becoming much more unihibited trying to fulfil whatever it was that was missing although he says it was not me. Just kinda hard to buy that line. We just came back from a week alone without kids where I tried to fulfill every fantasy he could think of and I did some things I never thought I would!! Anyway any thoughts on this subject would be greatly appreciated as this is not exactly something I can discuss with mom or even my friends!

 

[Moleculor]

Is cybering cheating? Yes, if the other spouse in question wouldn't approve. Are sexual letters cheating? Same as above. Phone sex? Same as above. However, I'm confused on the last question. How can you have a non-sexual friendship with someone with whom you have phone sex? This has me confused.

 

[Ricwilly]

Anything you wouldn't tell your SO about is probably not good.

 

[phoenix1224]

I would say that any intimate activity (physical or emotional) that you're SO doesn't know about and wouldn't approve of would constitute cheating.

But, people really need to let their feelings on this subject known early on in a relationship because different people have different ideas about what IS and what is NOT cheating.

 

[ewopper]

my take on the matter

Technically it's cheating, and as long as someone's been hurt then it definitely falls into the cheating parameters, I have to commend you though for loving him like you do the women i've known would cheat too to show him that they could give up a lot more than he could receive, which only confuses things more. Stay strong lady and follow your heart

 

[karndav]

Is cybering cheating? Yes, if the other spouse in question wouldn't approve. Are sexual letters cheating? Same as above. Phone sex? Same as above. However, I'm confused on the last question. How can you have a non-sexual friendship with someone with whom you have phone sex? This has me confused.

I guess I didn't make this last part clear. This last person I am referring to he didn't have phone sex with, just developed a very strong friendship with, would call her and talk to on a daily or almost daily basis about things going on in our or in her life, helped her through her divorce and through various boyfriends, met her once at an airport while he was traveling through her state. It was other women he had phone sex with. I am not sure why this relationship did not go that way, but he says it never did they just became very good friends.

 

[karndav]

Technically it's cheating, and as long as someone's been hurt then it definitely falls into the cheating parameters, I have to commend you though for loving him like you do the women i've known would cheat too to show him that they could give up a lot more than he could receive, which only confuses things more. Stay strong lady and follow your heart

I do love him and I am very comitted to our wedding vows and I am trying very hard to trust him again, it is just sometimes so hard not to want to check up on him especially as he travels quite a bit with the Air force. But I know for us to stay together I am going to have to work through this and trust again, I am just not sure how. He swears it will never happen again and I want to believe that but the old saying comings in my head fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. But I do know that I love him and want to work things out.

 

[Melodiosa]

I personally do believe cyber sex is cheating. In fact, it is a far more intentional than the actual physical act. In my mind, cheating is not a physical thing but a mental act. Sex is a biological function. But when you add human emotion and thought to the mix, a sexual act can be considered cheating. Cyber sex is the mental act of sex, and is therefore an intentional violation of an unwritten bonding of emotion between two people. In many ways, it is more intimate to cyber or have phone sex because it has gone beyond the biological function to the mental act. Because words are essentially my life, I also find texual sex almost more intimate than physical sex because it touches closer to what defines a relationship, which is a mental bonding with another person. Unlike pornographic pictures and movies, or erotica, cyber sex is also an interactive thing. Two people are intentionally sending sexual messages to one another, deliberately inducing sexual arousal, which is also a major part of physical sex. While there is no physical touching, it still produces the same effect and at this point, it has also gone beyond the biological act and becomes intellectual, which is more within our control.

Anyway, in a short and less confusing answer, I do believe cyber, phone sex, etc, is cheating. At least, it's cheating to me.

Maybe you could try a marriage counselor? Porn and cyber sex have been proven to be addicting.

 

[karndav]

I told my husband it was the emotional part that hurt the most, that made it cheating and he had a hard time seeing that. THe fact that he aroused and got aroused from another. He said he saw it as an interactive penthouse forum.

I have considered counseling and did infact go see my priest after this first happened and I was in so much pain. He told so many men get addicted to this and it has ruined many marriages and then he said something that has stayed with me. Forgiving is not forgetting.

I don't think my husband has cybered since I found out about all this but then again he did hide it from me for along time before. And again, as far as I know the phone sex has stopped, he tells me to check up on him, to do what ever it takes to make me trust him again and he genuinely seems sorry to have hurt me so badly so I am trying to take him at face value.

I am working on building my self esteem back up. The feeling that I wasn't good enough for him. That is probably one of the hardest parts to deal with. Thanks for all the comments and advice.

 

[swjunckie]

Little difference between men and women and....

something else...

Men can put cybering, phone sex, and all that into that little box of "penthouse forum" and erotica. Women get much more involved. Men can too, really. This can be emotional too but more likely what I talk about below.

I also thing she hit it right on the head when she said he was addicted. It can be an addiction just as drugs are. It is all mental. He needs to go see naked naughty stuff.

I've been there where you guys are. Make sure you don't completely withdraw from him. Engage him. take him away from the internet and that stuff. Sometimes that will break its hold. A satiated man will usually not have the umph to do porn etc.

If it doesn't, he really does have a problem and counselling/therapy will be the only way.

Good luck.

 

[Lyrical Fool]

Technically it's cheating, and as long as someone's been hurt then it definitely falls into the cheating parameters.

I do not think that anyone actually has to be hurt in order for it to be considered cheating, at least in my book.

Fantasizing about a sexy chick you saw in a restaurant isn't cheating. Calling her while your wife is away and having phone sex with her is. Any sexual medium is cheating if permission has not been explicitly given.

I've been there where you guys are. Make sure you don't completely withdraw from him. Engage him. take him away from the internet and that stuff. Sometimes that will break its hold. A satiated man will usually not have the umph to do porn etc.

Untrue. If he's truly addicted, it really doesn't matter how much she puts out or "engages" him. He will return again and again until he wants to stop.

You just have to figure out if a) He's truly addicted, and b) If you're willing to put up with it until he wants to change.

But I know for us to stay together I am going to have to work through this and trust again, I am just not sure how.

While that's true, trust is earned, not blindly placed. Trusting someone who has broken that trust and has yet to re-earn it is setting yourself up for heartbreak.

He may very well want to stop. For all I know, he could have when he said he did. But his asking you to check up on him, etc, implies (at least to me) that he wants a babysitter, not a wife.

The way I see it, addiction is not the disease, but the symptom. The disease is escapism. Whatever the form : porn, cyber, phone sex, drugs, whatever, is simply the vehicle one takes to get to the ultimate destination: escapism.

Leave treating the symptoms to the shitty US healthcare system. If you want to save your marriage, deal with the disease.

 

[karndav]

"Untrue. If he's truly addicted, it really doesn't matter how much she puts out or "engages" him. He will return again and again until he wants to stop.

You just have to figure out if a) He's truly addicted, and b) If you're willing to put up with it until he wants to change."

I can definitely attest to the fact that I kept him pretty busy. I woke him up early every morning or every other morning if I thought he was tired. Our sex life had improved immensly in the last year since we had gone on a trip together alone. It had rejuvinated our relationship



"He may very well want to stop. For all I know, he could have when he said he did. But his asking you to check up on him, etc, implies (at least to me) that he wants a babysitter, not a wife."

I don't think he wants a babysitter so much as he was telling me i can check up on him till my heart is content and I will find no evidence that he is back tohis old tricks. He means things like checking the cell phone bill, checking the history of the computer things I never even thought of looking at before.

"The way I see it, addiction is not the disease, but the symptom. The disease is escapism. Whatever the form : porn, cyber, phone sex, drugs, whatever, is simply the vehicle one takes to get to the ultimate destination: escapism.

Leave treating the symptoms to the shitty US healthcare system. If you want to save your marriage, deal with the disease.[/QUOTE]"

That is really amazing that you used the word escape because one of the things he said was he used it to escape from the everyday pressures. I passed it off as another rationalization but maybe I will have to give that more serious thought. I still truly believe he is addicted to the cybering and like an alcoholic it would only take one time and he would be hooked again. Maybe in a way i am already dealing with the disease in a way without realizing it by doing things like making sure we get more time away from the kids by taking walks after dinner and letting him tell me his frustrations of the day without having my mind going in ten different ways. We also have an adult son who is bi-polar and I used to spend alot of energy on him and I try now not to and I let him vent more about his frustrations concerning our son without trying so hard to defend jason's (our son) actions. I don't know but maybe all this will help.
"

 

[SweetErika]

I agree that, without a spouse's knowledge and consent, cybering, phonesex, letters, and even engaging emotionally in a hidden friendship is cheating. I think the friendship would hurt me most because I would see it as him not trusting me to support him in being happy (not loving him, basically).

It sounds like your priest was simply saying a lot of people have addictions to this kind of stuff. However, that doesn't necessarily mean HE is. If you're interested, there is a lot of info online (google 'sex addiction' 'internet addiction' 'porn addiction', etc.), including checklists of symptoms and places to get help if there's truly an addiction issue. http://www.saa-recovery.org/ http://open-mind.org/Sex-Love.htm and http://www.sarr.org/ are just a few. Either way, it sounds like counseling may be in order to help you deal with it, rebuild trust, and reconnect. For the reconnecting part and relationships in general, I'm also a big fan of books by Dr. John Gottman.

There was a great thread started by a wife whose husband was into cyber-cheating a few months ago. It had some good advice and suggestions, and can be found right here.

It sounds like you're on the right track in trying to rebuild trust, and I wish you the best of luck in that.

 

[karndav]

I agree that, without a spouse's knowledge and consent, cybering, phonesex, letters, and even engaging emotionally in a hidden friendship is cheating. I think the friendship would hurt me most because I would see it as him not trusting me to support him in being happy (not loving him, basically).

You are right the friendship hurt the most because I saw that as the most emotioanlly involved and it had gone on for four years and I had no idea. He said he needed someone he could talk to about things and vent to and while I was hurt it wasn't me I could definitly understand the need for a good friend. I have actually talked to this woman and can see how he became such good friends with her. She described him to me as her best friend and said she loved him like a brother. I told him he can stay friends with her since she had become so close to him (am I nuts or what??) just not to hide it from me (and this is the crazier part) and I have also become friends with her now. I don't know how that happened. I first called her to find about her relationship with my husband and we talked a few times and before I knew it we were friends. Sometimes though it is like scratching an open wound with me. It still hurts that he had this relationship without me for four years and I felt like Ihad to get to the bottom of it and find out what made her so special that he could talk toher and not me. Sometimes I drill him about what they talked about they even met once when he was traveling. And sometimes I have this calm acceptance about the whole thing. I think I am crazy!

 

[sexyjenn]

I believe cheating is really subjective. Mostly it's the betrayl of trust, if your partner will/could feel betrayed by it then it's cheating. Even a strong emotional attatchement with someone could be just as bad as actually having sex. Be open and tell your partners things discuss them before doing anything.

 

[Epona's Chylde]

I don't really consider cybering or phone sex to be cheating. A lot of men express their hidden fantasies this way to keep them from being tempted to cheat in real life.

Obviously trust is important and he should probabably trust his wife enough to discuss these things with her. However, in my own case, it wouldn't bother me to find out that he was cybering or having phone sex. But then again, I'm on of those people who thinks that "fucking is fucking". I don't care who he fucks as long as I'm the one he loves. If he wants to fuck every girl in town, who the hell cares. Sex is sex. As long as he doesn't care what I do, then I don't care what he does. Sex with one person gets boring anyway, at least for me.

I do think that people should be honest enough with each other to discuss these things ahead of time. Lying to your partner isn't a good thing. It destroys trust. However, some women are very close minded and the man is afraid of how she would react if he was honest and said what he really feels.

I don't see cybering/phone sex as that much different than watching porn. It's just "getting off". Just out of curiousity, are you very adventurous in bed? Men sometimes engage in these behaviors because they feel their wife won't understand their sexual preferences. I always said the easiest way to keep a man faithful was to be kinkier and raunchier than anyone else who might try to tempt him away.

If a man has a strong desire for a certain kind of sex (anal, oral, bondage, whatever) and the wife isn't open minded about that, he's quite likely to look to another source to get his allieviate his need for that kind of sex.


Having a hidden friendship would bother me...would make me wonder why he didn't tell me about her. Maybe his feelings run deeper than he cares to admit. It's not normal for a man to not tell his spouse about his friends (provided there is nothing to hide.)

Take my opinions with a grain of salt, as I don't believe in monogamy and I think that most women attach far too much emotion to sex. So he gets off on somebody else...not like I don't fantasize about other people. Not like I don't get turned on by other people. We're human, sex is natural. No big deal to me.

 

[TigersMylke]

what about the emotional attachment? what if you're married, in love and still find yourself attached to another? a lover? is it wrong because of morals or is it ever acceptable? what if the attachment is so strong that its physically painful to cut off? both of them. it's selfish I know, but so is jealousy...monogamy.

and the responses come rolling in...'seek counceling'..

 

[SweetErika]

what about the emotional attachment? what if you're married, in love and still find yourself attached to another? a lover? is it wrong because of morals or is it ever acceptable? what if the attachment is so strong that its physically painful to cut off? both of them. it's selfish I know, but so is jealousy...monogamy.

and the responses come rolling in...'seek counceling'..

I recommended counseling because it might give the wife a sounding board, some tools to deal with her feelings and communicate, could help the husband with his issues, etc., NOT because monogamy is the only right way.

In fact, I agree that attachment and sex with others is perfectly acceptable, but only as long as everyone's honest and agrees to it. Going outside the relationship causes a lot of conflict with the ideas society has instilled in us, so it must be talked about constantly, there's a lot of soul-searching, and deceit can never come into it.

 

[SweetErika]

Just out of curiousity, are you very adventurous in bed? Men sometimes engage in these behaviors because they feel their wife won't understand their sexual preferences. I always said the easiest way to keep a man faithful was to be kinkier and raunchier than anyone else who might try to tempt him away.

If a man has a strong desire for a certain kind of sex (anal, oral, bondage, whatever) and the wife isn't open minded about that, he's quite likely to look to another source to get his allieviate his need for that kind of sex.

To me, that seems equivalent to, "Oh well...boys will be boys, and it's not their fault they cheat because they have no self-control."

Not getting something you want in the bedroom (or relationship in general) might lead you to WANT to look for it elsewhere, but it doesn't mean you should or have to do so. Blaming the spouse for your behavior when you should have talked with them about it and worked out some solution (including leaving the relationship, if necessary) is ridiculous, selfish, immature, and disrespectful.

 

[LadyFunkenstein]

Thought I'd put in my two cents, with a tightening up of the language.

I don't think cyber or cam sex contitutes infidelity. I see it all as porn taken to the next level. Flashback to 1985, and we'd be having this discussion at a Tupperware party when women would say, "My husband has a large and filthy stash of dirty magazines! How can he do this to me?" I feel it is the same thing but more interactive.

I have purposefully avoided using the term "cheating" as I think it is too broad, too vague, uness you have clearly define the parameters in advance. With rapid technological advances, it is impossible to define it properly.

Now, let's say you catch your spouse with his pants around his ankles in front of the computer on messenger. You voice displeasure, and so he promises he won't do it again... and you catch him a week later, I would call that cheating in the way you might use it in the phrase "cheating on a test." Still isn't infidelity. It is behavior you don't like, and well it makes him a liar too, but no way is that actual Adultery.

 

[Epona's Chylde]

That's sort of the point I was trying to make. To me, it's just another sort of porn. I don't see why it would really bother someone. He's just relieving some sexual tension (I do it all the time.)

 

[Pyro Paul]

Cheating: Doing something that you Are not Alloud to Do under pretext of Rules defined.

cheating in a game would be acivating something that your Not supposed to have. or the ability to do something your not suposed to do.

cheating on a spouce would be having sexual relations against their will or with out their knowledge.

Cheating is a very liquid definition, as in this day in age some people dont like it if you cheat behind there backs but enjoy the thought of you with another person. oddly enough, i have a friend that just beat the living chit out of her boyfriend because he cheated behind her back, and she told me littraly, 'if he told me he was gunna screw around befor he did it behind my back, i would of let him. but since he did it behind my back...'

it all depends on the diffrent people you encounter.

i hope this helps a little.

 

[Eilan]

Forgive me if I'm repeating other posts, but I'm of the opinion that what constitutes cheating depends on the couple, so while we're all putting forth various opinions, those are, in fact OUR opinions. Ultimately, it's not my relationship, so it's not my call.

My view is that if one half of the couple engages in behavior with another person (online, phone, IRL, etc.) that he/she knows would hurt the other half, then it's cheating.

Because my husband and I were both cheated on in our previous marriages, we made sure to discuss the issue very early in our relationship. My husband and I wouldn't have a problem with, for example, cybering with other people, but cybering in general is not something we're interested in, so we don't do it.

 

[karndav]

Monogamy is something I definitely believe in! I couldn't just have sex without the emotional attachment with whoever but I can understand that others don't feel the same. But when I took my vows it said foresaking all others and I always have.

My husband tried to tell me he viewed all of this as an interactive forum but if that is so why not tell me? He has maintained from the begining it has had nothing to do with a lacking on my part but still I wonder. This has made my self esteem plummet. Could I have done more, dressed sexier, given more oral sex, fullfilled more fantasies? Since then I have tried so hard to be more open and while we were away together a few weeks ago I tried to make it a week of fulfilling every fantasy he had ever mentioned, doing everything he suggested. I have read everything I can get my hands on about being a better lover, how to give a better blow job, I have dressed more to please him and I turned myself into a sex maniac to the point where he said I was wearing him out. yet I still have doubts about myself.

As for his "friendship" I have definitely questioned how deep the feelings run. is he in denial about them? If it was just an innocent friendship why hide it from me for so long. (I found out totally by accident) I believe I could of accepted a friendship, hell everyone needs friends and I have made friends over the internet. So is it truly as innocent as they claim? i guess I'll never know for sure.

 

[SweetErika]

Monogamy is something I definitely believe in! I couldn't just have sex without the emotional attachment with whoever but I can understand that others don't feel the same. But when I took my vows it said foresaking all others and I always have.

Oddly enough, I can't have any kind of sex without that emotional attachment, but I believe there is something to recognizing different people can fulfill different needs, and that can actually improve happiness and add to a long-term relationship.

The relevance of the above to your situation may be that perhaps your husband is the same way and get something different from these other forms of interaction. He clearly enjoys talking to the female friend and is enriched by her presence in his life, and it sounds like you appreciate why, and have allowed her into your life to fulfill some of your needs as well. He may get an extra thrill and an outlet to express himself through cyber and phonesex, and despite the guilt, those probably added something he needed, enhanced his happiness, and maybe even your happiness as a couple. I'm NOT defending his actions at all...if he felt he needed those things, he definitely should have discussed it with you, especially since you sound like a generous, loving woman who might have been open to some new things. But my belief system about monogamy and marriage has been turned inside out in the past year, and I've come to realize there are many paths to happiness and success...doing differently and recognizing one person can't give you everything will not doom your relationship.

My husband tried to tell me he viewed all of this as an interactive forum but if that is so why not tell me? He has maintained from the begining it has had nothing to do with a lacking on my part but still I wonder. This has made my self esteem plummet. Could I have done more, dressed sexier, given more oral sex, fullfilled more fantasies? Since then I have tried so hard to be more open and while we were away together a few weeks ago I tried to make it a week of fulfilling every fantasy he had ever mentioned, doing everything he suggested. I have read everything I can get my hands on about being a better lover, how to give a better blow job, I have dressed more to please him and I turned myself into a sex maniac to the point where he said I was wearing him out. yet I still have doubts about myself.

This breaks my heart. I hope you believe him when he says it wasn't you at all, and you have nothing to apologize or make up for. You did absolutely nothing to contribute to his behavior... he made poor choices and failed to communicate, probably because he was afraid of hurting your feelings and making you think you were inadequate, which wasn't the case at all. In my experience, it's so difficult to tell a partner you love and find more than adequate that you enjoy something that's generally viewed as deviant, dirty, wrong, unfaithful, etc., and I've almost NOT forced myself to talk about these things on several occasions. That's no excuse, but it might be an explanation.

It sounds like you're doing your best to make something positive out of such a painful experience...that takes a lot of strength and love, and is so admirable. I hope you see that too, and are able to let go of misplaced guilt. We have a thread with great tips, resources, and exercises for self esteem... check it out here if you'd like.