What are the limits before you've 'done' something?

[invisigirl]

Hi.

What I mean by my question is, when you're online with someone and you begin flirting or talking about sex, where do you draw the line before it becomes more than just talking or flirting? Cybering and masturbating seems pretty black and white to me as having crossed that line although I think some people might disagree. But there's a lot of area in between. Where does sharing pictures fall into it? And I don't mean face pictures. What about if you get off on the talk even though you don't talk about getting off with the person? Is sharing fantasies just flirting? I'm interested in what people's personal limits are and if there's any consistency between them.

Thanks!

 

[KyleW]

Lets test the limits?

Actually for me I try to avoid certain talks or flitations, depending on the person, because i don't want to create a false link that I don't feel. Flirting for me isn't crossing a line. Unless it reaches a personal level.

 

[invisigirl]

Lets test the limits?

Actually for me I try to avoid certain talks or flitations, depending on the person, because i don't want to create a false link that I don't feel. Flirting for me isn't crossing a line. Unless it reaches a personal level.

What certain talks or flirtations? When does flirting become personal? This is what I'm trying to figure out.

 

[Bobmi357]

I think that once you start flirting with someone, online or off, its become personal.

Unless you intend to confine your conversations to the weather, world news, and the current price of gold, once you start getting to know the person on the other keyboard, it starts to become personal.

Exchanging photos is way beyond personal. If you are talking to a personal via text messaging, or voice over internet protocol, its still somewhat abstract. You really have no clue what the other person looks like, and like it or not, looks does affect our preception of people and how we treat them.

Now if you had a conversation concerning your love of cocker spaniels, its pretty inpersonal. Change that conversation to include how annoyed you are that the cocker chewed up your favorite vibe and you've given someone a segway into turning that conversation into something a lot more personal.

You've got to set limits based on your own personal comfort level. Are you comfortable sharing your photo, or worse, nude photo, with someone you've never met? Set your limits. They aren't cast in concrete laws, they are guidelines. You may be perfectly comfortable sending some guy you've talked with a few times a swim suit shot of you, on the other hand the guy you've been talking with for months you might be at the point where you're willing to send a much more racier image.

Personally I do NOT cyber. I will flirt occasionally with some of the regular women here. But cybering is a little too much when you're in a committed relationship like I'm in. The only way I would ever cyber would be with my wife hanging over my shoulder, and maybe doing what the other person is typing/saying.

Its all a matter of what you feel comfortable with I think. If you find yourself in a conversation that is making you uncomfortable, either steer it back to a safer topic or break the connection entirely.

 

[invisigirl]

Thanks Bobmi. I'm finding my comfort zone but I am interested in how others define 'doing' something with someone vs. talking. "Personal" might not have been the best word to choose.

Your comment about something being abstract makes sense. When something makes the person more real it kind of goes beyond the level of getting off to porn or stories when that's what you're doing.

Anybody else?

What about sharing fantasies? It's not cybering but isn't it almost the same thing?

 

[mac_crazy]

For me, cybering can range from meaning virtually nothing to being very personal and intimate.

On the one end of the spectrum, I could troll around on AOL's chatrooms and find a willing partner, male or female, in minutes, never exchange names or any other personal information, and get from "what are you wearing?" to "I'm cumming!" in minutes (I try to take a little more time in real life... LOL). We never cross paths again, and that's the end of that. The epitome of no strings attached. In fact, I really have no idea of the true gender of the person I was talking to!

On the other hand, I've met several people online (a few here on Lit, of course), that I've become cyber-friends with, and even met in person. We've had great conversations, exchanged pics, told stories about our past and present lives, and many times it's led to erotic, deliberate, detailed cybersex. This is much more fulfilling overall, because I know so much more about the person.

As for the subject of cybering with strangers while in a relationship... I'm on the fence about that. If you're in a strong relationship, with good communication lines, and you're both getting what you want and need out of it sexually, emotionally, and so on, then I don't see a problem with cybering, if you're both agreeable to it. HOWEVER -- there's so many instances where cybering takes place in secrecy, because of some sort of lacking in the relationship or another... that almost always is going to create a problem, because it's not just "sex" the cyber-er is after, it's attention, or a sexier (sounding) mate, or someone who will listen more than their spouse... someone who is getting attention that should be paid to the relationship the person's in....

anyway, just my two cents...

and I'm single, so I'm always open to carefree cybering!

 

[SweetErika]

This is something I've thought about a lot. My line is doing something with the purpose of turning a man on or replying to something that I'm fairly certain is going to be used for arousal/masturbation. I have no problem talking about personal topics or experiences, as long as it's about sharing and learning. Once I get to know someone fairly well, I like to exchange photos because faces are important to me (and much more personal than body parts). For non-face pics, I'd never send a man anything more revealing than my AV. All in all, it depends on the relationship, and I usually get a feeling when "the line" is being approached by me or the other person, and I let them know. I'm always very upfront about my boundaries, and expect whoever I'm talking with to respect them.

 

[Bobmi357]

This is something I've thought about a lot. My line is doing something with the purpose of turning a man on or replying to something that I'm fairly certain is going to be used for arousal/masturbation. I have no problem talking about personal topics or experiences, as long as it's about sharing and learning. Once I get to know someone fairly well, I like to exchange photos because faces are important to me (and much more personal than body parts). For non-face pics, I'd never send a man anything more revealing than my AV. All in all, it depends on the relationship, and I usually get a feeling when "the line" is being approached by me or the other person, and I let them know. I'm always very upfront about my boundaries, and expect whoever I'm talking with to respect them.

I have to admit that I sort of cringed when you used the word "relationship" Erika. I shy away from the word solely because it implies a level of emotional investment that would be detrimental to my existing relationship. And I think you probably would feel similar. Perhaps it would be best to simply call them "net friends".

I think that for us folks in a committed relationship, conversations online with others always must be approached cautiously. My wife deserves my entire emotional devotion and should not have to share it with some woman 2000 light years away on Tau Ceti V.

I can see us perhaps experiementing with cyber as a joint activity, but not solo. The lure of the net and its siren call of being a sympathetic medium are intense. Part of the problem with the net, is it DOES pose a potential danger to a relationship that is on rocky ground. It is far easier to talk to some faceless stranger anonymously than it is to talk to someone face to face. Think about it, I seriously doubt I would have been as forthcoming in a face to face conversation with Erika if I just met her on the street. And I doubt she would have been as forthcoming as well. The net reduces that awkward "getting to know you period" that you normally experience when meeting someone for the first time.

 

[SweetErika]

I have to admit that I sort of cringed when you used the word "relationship" Erika. I shy away from the word solely because it implies a level of emotional investment that would be detrimental to my existing relationship. And I think you probably would feel similar. Perhaps it would be best to simply call them "net friends".

I think that for us folks in a committed relationship, conversations online with others always must be approached cautiously. My wife deserves my entire emotional devotion and should not have to share it with some woman 2000 light years away on Tau Ceti V.

I can see us perhaps experiementing with cyber as a joint activity, but not solo. The lure of the net and its siren call of being a sympathetic medium are intense. Part of the problem with the net, is it DOES pose a potential danger to a relationship that is on rocky ground. It is far easier to talk to some faceless stranger anonymously than it is to talk to someone face to face. Think about it, I seriously doubt I would have been as forthcoming in a face to face conversation with Erika if I just met her on the street. And I doubt she would have been as forthcoming as well. The net reduces that awkward "getting to know you period" that you normally experience when meeting someone for the first time.

I do consider 'net friends' a relationship, but clearly it's at a different level than the one I have with my oldest friend, my husband, or my doctor for that matter. I see relationships in degrees and feel different people have different roles in my life. None of my relationships have negatively impacted my marriage, and I don't expect they ever will because the marriage is my top priority. If one did, I'd rectify the problem. I don't see that investing emotionally in those relationships takes away from my marriage either. It doesn't change the amount of time we spend together or the amount of love we share.

But that's just me, and I know that doesn't work for a lot of people. It's easy trap to fall into, and so many use online relationships as a replacement for and allow them to interfere with real ones. You're absolutely right about being cautious and respecting your spouse at all times. My rule regarding that is to not say or do anything that he might not approve of, might be hurt by, or that I wouldn't be proud to tell, show, or have him find.

I also agree you can and should view the Internet as potentially dangerous to relationships, yet I can't help but see the flip side of that and rejoice in how much I and our marriage has benefitted from the exchange of thoughts, feelings and experiences.

 

[invisigirl]

I agree there are lots of different kinds of relationships.

So what about the person you're flirting with. If you're abstract or anonymous or simply sharing stories and information at what point do you hold back because of how the other person might take these things. Telling someone you're in a commited relationship is one thing but people still seem to keep coming back for more, or pressing for more, even when you've made this plain. At what point do you worry that the other person is taking it too seriously?

 

[SweetErika]

I agree there are lots of different kinds of relationships.

So what about the person you're flirting with. If you're abstract or anonymous or simply sharing stories and information at what point do you hold back because of how the other person might take these things. Telling someone you're in a commited relationship is one thing but people still seem to keep coming back for more, or pressing for more, even when you've made this plain. At what point do you worry that the other person is taking it too seriously?

I'm not positive I know what you mean, but I think before you worry about people pressing for more, you have to look at what you're doing. Are you fanning the flames or sending signals that you want or are willing to give more than you are? For example, I'll say, "We've tried that once and our experience was..." but I don't go into explicit detail that could easily be misinterpreted as trying to turn the other person on. As far as flirting goes, I keep it nonspecific and use it sparingly.

Bottom line...You have to watch who you're flirting with, how you're doing it, and what the context is. IMHO, if someone keeps pushing despite the fact that you've voiced your boundaries and asked them to stay within them, and it's making you uncomfortable, they're probably not worth talking to any further.

 

[Cathleen]

I agree there are lots of different kinds of relationships.

So what about the person you're flirting with. If you're abstract or anonymous or simply sharing stories and information at what point do you hold back because of how the other person might take these things. Telling someone you're in a commited relationship is one thing but people still seem to keep coming back for more, or pressing for more, even when you've made this plain. At what point do you worry that the other person is taking it too seriously?

I happen to really enjoy talking (yea, don't all fall off your chairs on that one!) and getting to know others. I'm a naturally curious person and love to learn about new things, I don't find it all that difficult to talk to anyone about anything.

However, I have had a few experiences where the intentions have clearly been different between myself and the other. One in particular stands out in my mind; it began friendly enough but within a few conversations my gut was telling me to back off - something wasn't easy, although I couldn't put a finger on just what was bothering me.

I discussed it with another friend, shared some of the content of the conversations as well as the feelings I had when talking with the person in question. I found many of the conversations to be contentious and many times felt a sense that I didn't hold to my boundaries of a new friendship.

What I discovered, with the help of another friend, was that my intention was very different from the other person - I just didn't see it. I kept engaging and kept getting the same feelings, nothing would change unless one of us challenged the other. This sounds as if a contract was needed, and maybe that is a good analogy, we each needed to know what the other wanted and when that became clear, the relationship was over basically.

I do consider Internet friends as relationships, it is just a different medium of communicating. For me it comes down to honest communication of intention - where you meet the person will say a lot about what the intention is, i.e. a sex site chat room or at the library. My boundaries depend upon the circumstance of the encounter.

 

[College_geek]

I usually feel open to discussion of sexuality, such as what turns me on, stuff I've done, blah blah blah. Depending on how comfortable I feel with the person, I may cyber for fun. It's rarely serious cybering, due to my lack of singleness (yes, I like making up new words ), but if I hit it off with the person, I may cyber with them again some time.

To actually answer the topic, I draw my line at phone sex. When someone mentions it, I refuse. I would if I were single, but I consider it cheating, but cybering not. I guess I'm weird that way?

 

[Bobmi357]

To actually answer the topic, I draw my line at phone sex.

I guess the question that begs to be asked here is how do you cyber online then? Text only? The only reason I ask is because voice over IP is probably the second most common form of cybering these days and I don't really see any difference between voip and phone sex.

 

[College_geek]

I guess the question that begs to be asked here is how do you cyber online then? Text only? The only reason I ask is because voice over IP is probably the second most common form of cybering these days and I don't really see any difference between voip and phone sex.

Yeah, text only. No one has ever mentioned voice over IP to me, I think. Either way, I don't have a microphone. I would agree with you on there being no difference between that and phone sex.

 

[invisigirl]

I'm not positive I know what you mean, but I think before you worry about people pressing for more, you have to look at what you're doing. Are you fanning the flames or sending signals that you want or are willing to give more than you are? For example, I'll say, "We've tried that once and our experience was..." but I don't go into explicit detail that could easily be misinterpreted as trying to turn the other person on. As far as flirting goes, I keep it nonspecific and use it sparingly.

Bottom line...You have to watch who you're flirting with, how you're doing it, and what the context is. IMHO, if someone keeps pushing despite the fact that you've voiced your boundaries and asked them to stay within them, and it's making you uncomfortable, they're probably not worth talking to any further.

I have looked at and continue looking at what I say to others. I make it plain I'm just about talking casually. Sometimes explicitly but I tend to back away from that. It seems like, even if it's just talking 'about' stuff, they keep coming back for more. Well, once you've talked about something, shared perspectives and experiences, if it keeps coming up, then it's become something different in my eyes. I'll change the subject, even make it nonsexual, but I always get the feeling that they're just waiting for their chance. It gets uncomfortable. I don't want to play with people's heads, nor I don't want to be rude, and neither do I want to go where I don't want to go. That's why I thought I'd explore other people's perspectives on this. It's hard to put it into words though.

I say 'they' because it's happened a number of times but I have also shared with people who keep within those limits.

 

[invisigirl]

I usually feel open to discussion of sexuality, such as what turns me on, stuff I've done, blah blah blah. Depending on how comfortable I feel with the person, I may cyber for fun. It's rarely serious cybering, due to my lack of singleness (yes, I like making up new words ), but if I hit it off with the person, I may cyber with them again some time.

To actually answer the topic, I draw my line at phone sex. When someone mentions it, I refuse. I would if I were single, but I consider it cheating, but cybering not. I guess I'm weird that way?

So if you cyber a second time and then they keep pursuing you, how do you deal with it? Do you end up ignoring them?

 

[SweetErika]

I have looked at and continue looking at what I say to others. I make it plain I'm just about talking casually. Sometimes explicitly but I tend to back away from that. It seems like, even if it's just talking 'about' stuff, they keep coming back for more. Well, once you've talked about something, shared perspectives and experiences, if it keeps coming up, then it's become something different in my eyes. I'll change the subject, even make it nonsexual, but I always get the feeling that they're just waiting for their chance. It gets uncomfortable. I don't want to play with people's heads, nor I don't want to be rude, and neither do I want to go where I don't want to go. That's why I thought I'd explore other people's perspectives on this. It's hard to put it into words though.

I say 'they' because it's happened a number of times but I have also shared with people who keep within those limits.

I understand what you're saying, invisigirl. From my experience, the least pushy men are those who are genuinely interested in talking about anything and developing a friendship. Those are the ones I open up to because they respect my boundaries, and if I did cyber, I'd do it with them. As for stopping it if you feel uncomfortable, a simple, "I'm uncomfortable, and am opting to end this conversation. I hope you find what you're looking for." generally works well.

 

[College_geek]

So if you cyber a second time and then they keep pursuing you, how do you deal with it? Do you end up ignoring them?

Depends. Sometimes I'll cyber with them again to be nice. Other times, I'm honest and will say I'm not in the mood. Most of the time they grow tired and we never talk again. It actually makes me sad usually because I don't have many good online friends from lit who I talk to on aim- most are just people who talk to me for some form of cybering.

 

[Bobmi357]

You ladies need to understand the maler player thats online.

And mind you, this is not me, but I can provide you with a male perspective.

The male player looks at each of the women he's cybered with as conquests. To him its a game and nothing more. You're a means to an end, his orgasm. And if it means that he starts out talking as a friend, thats what he'll do. He'll start by chipping away at your barriers. Each barrier passed is one step closer to his goal. So when you think you have a friend online and say something like "My husband/boyfriend isn't giving me what I want" you've handed him an opening. A way for him to segway the conversation into being more explicit. He'll be sympathetic, tell you he'd never treat you like that and then ask you to be a "little" more specific.

He may take weeks to chip away at your barriers, but thats ok, because your not the only fish he's got nibbling at this bait. He'll be friendly, be supportive of you and your aspirations. Make no mistake ladies, this guy is out for one thing and one thing only.

The problem is that for every really nice guy out there just looking for a friend or maybe a real relationship, there are at least 2 more looking for a fast cyber, or even a guiltless romp, no strings attached. Unfortunately the player isn't easy to tell apart from the nice guy. I think the one way you can tell is that the nice guy won't bring up explicit issues on his own whereas a player will be more prone to push the issue due to his impatience.

 

[Cathleen]

I agree with you Bob and most especially that the truly nice men can get lost among the players/jerks.

 

[SweetErika]

You ladies need to understand the maler player thats online.

And mind you, this is not me, but I can provide you with a male perspective.

The male player looks at each of the women he's cybered with as conquests. To him its a game and nothing more. You're a means to an end, his orgasm. And if it means that he starts out talking as a friend, thats what he'll do. He'll start by chipping away at your barriers. Each barrier passed is one step closer to his goal. So when you think you have a friend online and say something like "My husband/boyfriend isn't giving me what I want" you've handed him an opening. A way for him to segway the conversation into being more explicit. He'll be sympathetic, tell you he'd never treat you like that and then ask you to be a "little" more specific.

He may take weeks to chip away at your barriers, but thats ok, because your not the only fish he's got nibbling at this bait. He'll be friendly, be supportive of you and your aspirations. Make no mistake ladies, this guy is out for one thing and one thing only.

The problem is that for every really nice guy out there just looking for a friend or maybe a real relationship, there are at least 2 more looking for a fast cyber, or even a guiltless romp, no strings attached. Unfortunately the player isn't easy to tell apart from the nice guy. I think the one way you can tell is that the nice guy won't bring up explicit issues on his own whereas a player will be more prone to push the issue due to his impatience.

Tricky, manipulative scoundrels, aren't they? Thanks for the perspective, Bob, though I can't say it makes me more willing to trust men!

 

[Bobmi357]

Tricky, manipulative scoundrels, aren't they? Thanks for the perspective, Bob, though I can't say it makes me more willing to trust men!

Well don't let a bunch of idiots turn you off to half the species Erika.

The truth beknown, there are a lot of nice guys out there, some looking for a real relationship and others just looking for friends. Remember that guys are extremely dim witted when it comes to subtle hints. So an opening line to someone you just met online and think might make a suitable online friend might be "So what are you looking for? An online friend, an online relationship, or a fuck buddy?"

Ok, that was rather crude and blunt, but it will get you the answer you seek right away.

Further, in defense of my gender I'll say this. I met alyx online. When I met her I wasn't looking for a fuck buddy, or even an relationship. That just sort of happened and I'm very pleased that it did. We started out as buddies, hunting partners in an online role playing game, ended up as married lovers. Not all guys are on the prowl, but some men are opportunists, they will take advantage of an opening when they spot one.

The good guy will be there when you're hurting, but won't take advantage of that hurt to break down your barriers. The good guy will be supportive, won't laugh at your aspirations and dreams. The good guy will only go as far as his moral ethic will allow him, then stop him. The downside to the good guy ladies, is 9 times out of 10, if you really want to get this guy to move forward, you pratically have to drag him.

 

[invisigirl]

Depends. Sometimes I'll cyber with them again to be nice. Other times, I'm honest and will say I'm not in the mood. Most of the time they grow tired and we never talk again. It actually makes me sad usually because I don't have many good online friends from lit who I talk to on aim- most are just people who talk to me for some form of cybering.

That's one of the reasons why I don't cyber anymore except for one person. I don't want to do it just to be nice. I like to be nice but I can do it without feeling like I've given something personal of myself that I later feel like, why in the hell did I do that? If the contact starts out with cybering, that's what they expect. I'd much rather share real, personal aspects of my life. And I'd expect the same back but I find people are more interested in the fantasy than exploring real things about life. I think it's part of why I'm posting here. Out in the open is less personal but you can still express yourself sexually and discuss real things. Kind of like getting my jollies without the strings.

 

[invisigirl]

Well don't let a bunch of idiots turn you off to half the species Erika.

The truth beknown, there are a lot of nice guys out there, some looking for a real relationship and others just looking for friends. Remember that guys are extremely dim witted when it comes to subtle hints. So an opening line to someone you just met online and think might make a suitable online friend might be "So what are you looking for? An online friend, an online relationship, or a fuck buddy?"

Ok, that was rather crude and blunt, but it will get you the answer you seek right away.

Further, in defense of my gender I'll say this. I met alyx online. When I met her I wasn't looking for a fuck buddy, or even an relationship. That just sort of happened and I'm very pleased that it did. We started out as buddies, hunting partners in an online role playing game, ended up as married lovers. Not all guys are on the prowl, but some men are opportunists, they will take advantage of an opening when they spot one.

The good guy will be there when you're hurting, but won't take advantage of that hurt to break down your barriers. The good guy will be supportive, won't laugh at your aspirations and dreams. The good guy will only go as far as his moral ethic will allow him, then stop him. The downside to the good guy ladies, is 9 times out of 10, if you really want to get this guy to move forward, you pratically have to drag him.

I have to agree with this whole heartedly. There are some really nice guys out there who will respect your limits but you do have to be blunt because many of them are also looking for something. I think it sounds a little jaded to say, I don't do this, won't do that, etc. but you have to come out with it so they know where you are coming from. Even having said those things I feel like the lines can get fuzzy and I get uncomfortable. That's when I pull back.