We should all be raised by the State!

[4est_4est_Gump]

Pretty much. I was going to post, "OMG, another one of 'those'."

But to address his/her/its question. There has been NO significant philosophical thought regarding the relationship of man to his government in centuries, none. Having an iPhone and driving a car, turning on the lights, opening the fridge, none of that means nothing at all. It is merely an expression of technological advancement. From the standpoint of mans relationship to man, or man to his government there has been none whatsoever. And thinking that it somehow has is delusional.

Franklin, Adams, Jay, Hamilton, Locke, Aurelius, von Humboldt, Plato, and oh so many more are quite relevant. Their philosophical works were independent of technological advance. Those philosophers that have tried to tie technology to governmental philosophies, like Marx, have more or less been disproven as holding out any viable government form with long term stability.

And one more point. The US is NOT a democracy and was purposely designed not to be one. I'll concede that there is a group of politicians that would like to turn it into one, and an ever larger group of the populace who, in ignorance, actually believe that we are one. The framers attitude towards democracy is best summed up by B. Franklin - "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch."

Ishmael

Not since Aristotle has there been a new understanding in the forms of human governance, liberty and bondage...

But every generation has that conceit (I was amused to run across it in The Last Knight of Liberalism) that it is something new, an advancement on the human condition (in the case of the German Socialists of the Chair and its satellite Vienna, the explosion of the Socialist State coupled with the newfangled fiat money, as if Rome had not already taught man the evils of debasing the coinage of the empire).

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Please define freedom as you see it.

Life Liberty Property

The stool of classical Liberalism.

The right to my life, the ability to do with is as I wish as long as it brings no harm to another and the right to own property, beginning with myself.

The fact that the world is not rushing to read and understand John Jay is an ominous portend that clearly demonstrates how easy it will be for us to give up our natural rights for the sake of the common weal...

 

[ChinaBandit]

The Occident.

Always one view of philosophy, political or otherwise, only.

 

[ChinaBandit]

Life Liberty Property

The stool of classical Liberalism.

The right to my life, the ability to do with is as I wish as long as it brings no harm to another and the right to own property, beginning with myself.

The fact that the world is not rushing to read and understand John Jay is an ominous portend that clearly demonstrates how easy it will be for us to give up our natural rights for the sake of the common weal...

The Orient has never embraced the rights of the individual over those of the collective.

In Chinese, there are no character combinations equating to the word "individual."

It's a totally different basis for the foundation of society and all interchange between people.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Yes, surrender to the state has been a very effective model for the Middle Kingdom which is why it is forever keeping up.

Can you not see that the only way in which it becomes competitive is not when it moves towards us, but when we surrender liberty for security from the state and move close to it causing our economy to falter and our people to get even poorer causing great clamorous calls for ever-increasing interventions and positive interferences on the part of the state?

Or is it, in your view, all to the good?

Is the security of an all-powerful state more beneficial to you than the uncertainties of liberty?

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

The Orient has never embraced the rights of the individual over those of the collective.

In Chinese, there are no character combinations equating to the word "individual."

It's a totally different basis for the foundation of society and all interchange between people.

Yes. That is the central thesis of "Anthem."

It is, of course, a great way to live.

:nods:

 

[Ishmael]

Relevant to who? You are delusional to believe the world is rushing to consider John Jay, in the least...

I'm not in the least delusional. I am fully aware that across the face of the globe the greater segments of the human race has been dumbed down to essentially the same philosophical level that you are. And that is the path to totalitarianism. It's an inevitable consequence because once you buy into the notion that government must alter itself to deal with every new tool and toy that springs from the mind of man, you have bought into the notion that government must also control. Barring some cataclysm it is axiomatic that there will be ever more tools and toys and that being the case even more excuses for government to use to exert ever more control over the day to day lives of man. That process must necessarily continue until either the government is overthrown, or society reaches the point where it can said that the citizen has virtually no meaningful liberty at all.

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." - George Washington

Ishmael

 

[ChinaBandit]

Yes, surrender to the state has been a very effective model for the Middle Kingdom which is why it is forever keeping up.

Can you not see that the only way in which it becomes competitive is not when it moves towards us, but when we surrender liberty for security from the state and move close to it causing our economy to falter and our people to get even poorer causing great clamorous calls for ever-increasing interventions and positive interferences on the part of the state?

Or is it, in your view, all to the good?

Is the security of an all-powerful state more beneficial to you than the uncertainties of liberty?

Individual liberty is not a natural way of thought for any Asian culture including those, such as India, with an elective government. There is always great cultural constraint on behavior which is learned within the family unit itself from birth. Western people are far more independent in all manner of decisions and lifestyle. Of course, there are a-typical people everywhere.

In respect to China, life is constantly improving for all in terms of education, economic opportunity and overall well being. That is the effective formula for keeping the vast majority of 1 billion plus in check.

 

[Statist]

Just like a good neighbor...


xoxoxoxoxo,
The Village Idiot

I thought I was the only one.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

One wonders how long before Hong Kong is quietly assimilated and reorganized as not to give the Han an idea that there may be a way other than Confucius...



That is why some are always allowed to survive the pogroms...

Every regime re-discovers the utility of allowing a few capitalists to live; its like the government keeping a few vials of Small Pox alive, you never know when you might need them, and you always need them.

 

[ChinaBandit]

I'm not in the least delusional. I am fully aware that across the face of the globe the greater segments of the human race has been dumbed down to essentially the same philosophical level that you are. And that is the path to totalitarianism. It's an inevitable consequence because once you buy into the notion that government must alter itself to deal with every new tool and toy that springs from the mind of man, you have bought into the notion that government must also control. Barring some cataclysm it is axiomatic that there will be ever more tools and toys and that being the case even more excuses for government to use to exert ever more control over the day to day lives of man. That process must necessarily continue until either the government is overthrown, or society reaches the point where it can said that the citizen has virtually no meaningful liberty at all.

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." - George Washington

Ishmael

I disagree with the notion that it is a "dumbed down" effect in the Orient. It may be in Europe. There is no Greco-Roman tradition of thought in Asia to begin with. Government, in one form or another, has always been in control.

 

[ChinaBandit]

Every regime re-discovers the utility of allowing a few capitalists to live; its like the government keeping a few vials of Small Pox alive, you never know when you might need them, and you always need them.

You guys still don't get it.

There are more than a few Capitalists in China. Simply take a look at global luxury car orders.

The task the Chinese are engaged in is to privatize as many state owned enterprises as possible.

The government fully realizes tax revenues are good. One reason a VAT has gone into effect in Beijing since September 1st.

 

[unregistered]

 

[unregistered]