we all got class

where do you fit?

  • Old Rich

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • New Rich

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Corporate Elite

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Upper Middle Class

    Votes: 5 25.0%
  • Lower Middle Class

    Votes: 10 50.0%
  • Working Class

    Votes: 4 20.0%
  • Lower Class

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Could care less/not telling

    Votes: 1 5.0%

  • Total voters
    20

Shankara20

Well, that is lovely
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Posts
58,546

Are we all truly equal? In terms of intrinsic value I say "yes, we are all equal"

But what about in terms of social standing? Our perceived class standing, both how we see ourselves and how others see us, influences our feelings of equality.

So where do you fit? Me, I'm Lower Middle Class on the chart but have a self-defined Upper Middle Class value system, thank you very much.

Info on social class at Wiki Wiki link

some snips just to stir the pot...

"Social class is sometimes presented as a description of how the society has distributed its members among positions of varying importance, influence, and prestige. In these models, certain occupations are considered to be desirable and influential, while others are considered to be menial, repetitive, and unpleasant. (In some cases, non-occupational roles such as a parent or volunteer mentor, are also considered.) Higher-class jobs require more skill and education.

Some sociologists consider the higher income and prestige of higher-class jobs to simply be incentives to obtain the skills necessary to perform important work. This is an important mechanism in the economic theory of capitalism, and is compatible with the notion that class is mutable and determined by a combination of choices and opportunities.

In other cases, class or status is inherited. For example, being the son or daughter of a wealthy individual, may carry a higher status and different cultural connotations than being a member of nouveau riche ("new money"). Those taking the functionalist approach to sociology and economics view social classes as components essential for the survival of complex societies such as American society."


more pot stirring

"Social classes feature their own sub-cultures and have therefore developed slightly different manners of socializing their offspring. Due to class mobility individuals may also assimilate to the culture of another class when ascending or descending in the social order. One does however need to remember that all social classes in the United States, except the upper class, consist of tens of millions of people. Thus social classes form social groups so large that they feature considerable diversity within and any statement regarding a given social class' culture needs to be seen as a broad generalization. Since 1970, sociologists such as Paula LeMasters and Melvin Kohl have set out repeatedly to research class based cultures. Class culture has been shown to have a strong influence on the mundane lives of people, affecting everything from the manner in which they raise their children, initiation and maintenance of romantic relationship to the color in which they paint their houses. The strongest cultural differences seem to run along the professional middle class-working class divide. A recent increase in residential class segregation and the overall tendency of individual to associate mostly with those of equal standing as themselves has further strengthened class differences.

Parental views are the perhaps most essential factor in determining the socialization process which shapes new members of society. The values and standards used in child rearing are commonly closely related to the parent's occupational status. Parents from the professional class tend to raise their children to become curious independent thinkers, while working class parents raise their children to have a more communal perspective with a strong respect for authority. Middle class parents tend to emphasize internal standards and values while working class parents emphasize external values. Sociologist Dennis Gilbert uses a list of values identified by Melvin Kohn to be typical of the professional middle and working class. Middle class parents values for their children and themselves included: "Consideration of Others, Self-Control, Curiosity, Happiness, Honesty, Tolerance of Nonconformity, Open to Innovation... Self-Direction." This contrasted with surveyed working class individuals, who reported: "Manners, Obedience... Neatness, Cleanliness, Strong Punishment of Deviant Behavior, Stock to Old Ways, People not Trustworthy... Strict Leadership" as values for themselves and their children. There is a strong correlation between these values and the occupational activities of the respondents. The job characteristics of middle class respondents included: "Work Independently, Varied Tasks, Work with People or Data," versus working class parents of reported "Close Supervision and Repetitive Work..."

Gender roles are also viewed differently by those in the higher and lower social classes. Middle class individuals, who were more open towards "nonconformity" and emphasized individual self-direction as well as critical thinking, were also less stringent in their application of gender roles. Working class individuals, on the other hand, emphasized gender roles. While working class people have more and more assimilated to middle class culture regarding their view and application of gender roles, differences remain. Professional class people are more likely to have an egalitarian distribution of work in their household with both spouses being equals in heterosexual marriages. According to Dennis Gilbert, "College life, generally a prologue to upper-middle class careers, delays marriage and encourages informal, relatively egalitarian association between men and women."
 
I'm a spy.

Working class roots and payscale, upper middle education and value system, bleeding into upper, period. I can hold my own among NYT editors and politicians as well as receptionists and waitresses. I've hung with both, both their kids. I empathize more with the bottom of the rungs, but I blend better with the top.

I also have my own business. Which takes in a good chunk of change, solidly middle middle. Unfortunately I've since learned that what a businesswoman keeps versus overhead are wider apart than I'd ever dreamt.
 
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I've been in all of these classes - except the "old money" one. I was not born into wealth. My class level, where $$ is concerned, goes up and down more often than a kangaroo in a bouncy castle but right now it's hovering at lower middle. Means little to me.

It was fun, however, when I was in the upper financial echelons because I didn't look or act the part, which made for some interesting social exchanges.

The job that made me the most money required the least amount of brains.

One of my most rewarding jobs paid the least.

Speaking of work, I have lots to do.
 
I'm going to take that chart with a pinch of salt - by the time he retired, my dad earned something that, depending on what the exchange rate was at the time, either put us at the top or the bottom end of upper middle class and, while I might sound like it at times, we are faaaaaaaaar from upper middle class. I think most people who know us would agree that we don't seem to fit into anything other than lower middle class.
 
I think that chart is kind of old. Maybe in a totally non urban setting these are the right figures. Middle class does not start at 32 K outside of maybe bumfuck.

100 grand is not remotely "upper middle" in SF, NYC or even MN. I'd say you really don't hit that till you're almost doubling that and still not in SF, LA, NYC. To me, it's more a question of purchasing power and attitude.

Do you put off major dentistry, minor dentistry, vet visits, vacations, or food?

Those things are my litmus tests.

Rich in this country is so freaking absurdly filthy rich. No one can bring themselves to say the word "poor" or "rich." Which is funny.
 
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I think that chart is kind of old. Maybe in a totally non urban setting these are the right figures. Middle class does not start at 32 K outside of maybe bumfuck.

I agree - toward the bottom of that chart location in the country makes a big difference if the amount of money is the only factor.

I'm interested in the value system modeled by parents as an indicator of class. I wonder if there is a correlation between "working class"(see below) and some in "new rich"?

"This contrasted with surveyed working class individuals, who reported: "Manners, Obedience... Neatness, Cleanliness, Strong Punishment of Deviant Behavior, Stock to Old Ways, People not Trustworthy... Strict Leadership" as values for themselves and their children."
 
I've been in all of these classes - except the "old money" one. I was not born into wealth. My class level, where $$ is concerned, goes up and down more often than a kangaroo in a bouncy castle but right now it's hovering at lower middle. Means little to me.

I've flirted with Upper Middle several times in my life (based on money earned) but have never been able to stay there - and I felt uncomfortable there.
 
Me, personally? Working class.

I came from a family with working class values and traditions that worked blue collar jobs, but made an upper middle class income, according to the chart. Sooo...yeah.
 
Bounced between Lower Middle and Working Class by that table.

But I'm rarely accused of having any class, so...
 
I've flirted with Upper Middle several times in my life (based on money earned) but have never been able to stay there - and I felt uncomfortable there.

I'm comfortable in almost every class, financially speaking.

In other terms, hm, hard to define. I play well with others but I find it hard to communicate with people who are very insular. This could be the guy who's worked on the widget assembly line all his life and has never traveled more than twenty miles from his home, or it could be the upper middle class woman who gets all her knowledge of the outside world from Oprah and visits the same all-inclusive resort in Cancun for two weeks every summer. I'm attracted to people with broad horizons but they come from all classes.

There isn't a group I identify strongly with but my upbringing was very blue collar. (My dad used to call sushi "fishy". When I moved to Japan he said, "You know you're going to have to eat fishy, that's all they eat over there." I love him.)
 
I always preferred the term "genteel poverty" - the manners of "money" with the income of working class/poor.
 
I agree that the numbers in the chart are misleading.

Retirement aside, my dad, sister and I would all be described as professionals with graduate degrees. My mom has a college degree, but after a few years teaching, stayed home to raise us.



Values instilled:

- honesty, hard work, self-reliance.

- education, education, education.

- community service.

- Respect authority that deserves it. Whenever possible, actively resist authority that does not.

- It is the responsibility of the strong to stand up for the weak when they are wrongfully attacked. A silent bystander is complicit in a crime.
 
I agree that the numbers in the chart are misleading.

That whole chart is just a construct - in fact the way we talk about the US social classes was created by sociologists to try to sort out have we all interact.

Are there in fact classes in the good ol' USofA?
What about Lit folks not US Americans, how does class work where you live?
 
I always preferred the term "genteel poverty" - the manners of "money" with the income of working class/poor.

See, that's why I can't think of an answer to the question. Currently, we're really poor and we get food stamps and other govt help. (I say currently because K's half way to a bachelors in business and I'm on my way to a bachelors in journalism - these circumstances are temporary.) But I don't consider us to be 'lower classed'. I know that even though I occasionally let fuck escape my mouth and that my mouth gets me in trouble, that I'm not low class. I don't think I have all the manners of "money", but I have a lot of them because my mother does and she insisted that I learn them, too. And, quite honestly, they come through in my day to day dealings with people. I don't know if I'd say I'm a lady, but I am relatively lady like.

And someday I'll kick my cussing habit. I will. I will. lol
 
See, that's why I can't think of an answer to the question. Currently, we're really poor and we get food stamps and other govt help. (I say currently because K's half way to a bachelors in business and I'm on my way to a bachelors in journalism - these circumstances are temporary.) But I don't consider us to be 'lower classed'. I know that even though I occasionally let fuck escape my mouth and that my mouth gets me in trouble, that I'm not low class. I don't think I have all the manners of "money", but I have a lot of them because my mother does and she insisted that I learn them, too. And, quite honestly, they come through in my day to day dealings with people. I don't know if I'd say I'm a lady, but I am relatively lady like.

And someday I'll kick my cussing habit. I will. I will. lol

There are plenty of moneyed people with none of these manners, no Emily Post-ness whatsoever.

I remember eating with the lawyers on my first job in the conference room once, they got take in.

Holy shit, animals with food. I mean, I'm not the most delicate of flowers myself, but man.

IME, people with limited means who value tact and manners have better tact and manners than people who simply happen to have money, unless it's very old money - then there's a code. Definitely.

Of course I have neither. Heh.

Old money confused me, new money made sense to me. Even if those people can be really coarse.
 
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I don't think I have all the manners of "money", but I have a lot of them because my mother does and she insisted that I learn them, too.
The more expensive the car, the more likely the driver to cut you off in traffic. The more expensively dressed the woman, the more likely she is to be rude to the cashier at the market.

Of course, there *are* gracious people of means. But overall, the notion of "the manners of money" is nothing more than a veneer.

In too many cases, courtesy is extended only in the time and place of the wealthy person's choosing - i.e., when they believe they will personally benefit from creating a gracious impression.

In not all cases, but far too often, money confers a sense of entitlement resulting in behavior that is far from courteous.
 
The more expensive the car, the more likely the driver to cut you off in traffic. The more expensively dressed the woman, the more likely she is to be rude to the cashier at the market.


Depends. The most mannered people I ever encountered were also by far the richest. Some kind of Mid Eastern royalty in the store, probably cousins of Queen Noor or something.

There are people of means who know what it's like to be down to your last potato and haven't forgotten. And there's old money, super duper privilege that has nothing to prove at all.

It's all a question of personal insecurity, and people have those demons or don't.

And I find that the bigger AND crappier the car the more likely. Dude with honkin' rustbucket has no worries about scratches.
 
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Depends. The most mannered people I ever encountered were also by far the richest. Some kind of Mid Eastern royalty in the store, probably cousins of Queen Noor or something.

There are people of means who know what it's like to be down to your last potato and haven't forgotten. And there's old money, super duper privilege that has nothing to prove at all.

It's all a question of personal insecurity, and people have those demons or don't.

And I find that the bigger AND crappier the car the more likely. Dude with honkin' rustbucket has no worries about scratches.
Hence my statement that there *are* gracious people of means.

And yes, I've seen rude people in rustbuckets.
 
Hence my statement that there *are* gracious people of means.

And yes, I've seen rude people in rustbuckets.

Oh, no I realize. I just am not sure that they're so few as to be a kind of rule exception.
 
And the craziest of crazy mean crazies in a market to cashier girls seem to be older ladies of the fixed income bracket. No? I can't be the only retail drudge to think this. They can also be the bright spot in your otherwise shitty day of course.
 
To put in perspective what I mean when I say my mom has the manners of 'money', my mom's family has been land rich for a very long time. Before we came to America, our family was nobility. I mean A LONG TIME. My mom went a different way, and got into drugs and other bad things, but a good majority of my mom's family are land rich. And those manners show through now that she's sober.

As a child she insisted we learn which fork to eat with what course, in case we ever ate in a fancy restaurant. :rolleyes: (That's a skill I still haven't needed.) I can go into detail about the manners we were required to use as a child that I've never needed, but I won't. My aunt made me and my cousins learn to curtsy properly and walk with books on our heads. (The only use I get out of that is entertaining my kids.) I can eat soup properly, I can eat spaghetti with a fork AND a spoon (although I won't). I have more useless knowledge of manners than I ever needed. :rolleyes: I also used to have REALLY REALLY good grammar and enunciation. (Mom insisted.) As a teenager I dropped all that, because it got me made fun of. (Not many teenagers talk that well.) Sometimes I wish I hadn't done that, but as a rule it's not something that's holding me back in life.
 
That whole chart is just a construct - in fact the way we talk about the US social classes was created by sociologists to try to sort out have we all interact.

Are there in fact classes in the good ol' USofA?
What about Lit folks not US Americans, how does class work where you live?
Classes, as in: multiple social strata, each sharing basic economic characteristics? Yes

Classes, as in: groups comprising a rigid system of dividing society, like a caste system? Yes and no. Internet aside, opportunities for meaningful interaction with members in other brackets depend a lot on where you start out on the chart, your opportunities for education, and where you live. Opportunities for movement between brackets depend on similar factors.
 
To put in perspective what I mean when I say my mom has the manners of 'money', my mom's family has been land rich for a very long time. Before we came to America, our family was nobility. I mean A LONG TIME. My mom went a different way, and got into drugs and other bad things, but a good majority of my mom's family are land rich. And those manners show through now that she's sober.

As a child she insisted we learn which fork to eat with what course, in case we ever ate in a fancy restaurant. :rolleyes: (That's a skill I still haven't needed.) I can go into detail about the manners we were required to use as a child that I've never needed, but I won't. My aunt made me and my cousins learn to curtsy properly and walk with books on our heads. (The only use I get out of that is entertaining my kids.) I can eat soup properly, I can eat spaghetti with a fork AND a spoon (although I won't). I have more useless knowledge of manners than I ever needed. :rolleyes: I also used to have REALLY REALLY good grammar and enunciation. (Mom insisted.) As a teenager I dropped all that, because it got me made fun of. (Not many teenagers talk that well.) Sometimes I wish I hadn't done that, but as a rule it's not something that's holding me back in life.
Oh, okay. Thanks for clarifying, Graceanne. :)

You're absolutely right, some of those customs aren't really mainstream manners.
 
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