we all got class

[graceanne]

Oh, okay. Thanks for clarifying, Graceanne.

You're absolutely right, some of those customs aren't really mainstream manners.

Tell me about it.

Believe me, I'm not passing those manners on to my kids. Talk about a waste of time.

 

[Netzach]

To put in perspective what I mean when I say my mom has the manners of 'money', my mom's family has been land rich for a very long time. Before we came to America, our family was nobility. I mean A LONG TIME. My mom went a different way, and got into drugs and other bad things, but a good majority of my mom's family are land rich. And those manners show through now that she's sober.

As a child she insisted we learn which fork to eat with what course, in case we ever ate in a fancy restaurant. (That's a skill I still haven't needed.) I can go into detail about the manners we were required to use as a child that I've never needed, but I won't. My aunt made me and my cousins learn to curtsy properly and walk with books on our heads. (The only use I get out of that is entertaining my kids.) I can eat soup properly, I can eat spaghetti with a fork AND a spoon (although I won't). I have more useless knowledge of manners than I ever needed. I also used to have REALLY REALLY good grammar and enunciation. (Mom insisted.) As a teenager I dropped all that, because it got me made fun of. (Not many teenagers talk that well.) Sometimes I wish I hadn't done that, but as a rule it's not something that's holding me back in life.

H's mom's family had a thing going. The family had lost its cash and respectability to a large extent, but they were Southern, proud, and set, and Mom had to have her gloves on unless it was after five in the house or some arbitrary weird rule. Real Southern Gothic alcohol-soaked weird but very genteel.

 

[graceanne]

H's mom's family had a thing going. The family had lost its cash and respectability to a large extent, but they were Southern, proud, and set, and Mom had to have her gloves on unless it was after five in the house or some arbitrary weird rule. Real Southern Gothic alcohol-soaked weird but very genteel.

LOL My grandma was like that, but she's mellowed. She still, however, won't wear pants cause it's not ladylike. She puts on nylons and a nice dress and makeup every day, and even nicer clothes if she's going out.

Honestly, my mom dropped a lot of the weird manners herself. And I'm dropping a lot more of them.

The most important thing, manner wise, is to treat others like you'd want to be treated. Say please, thank you, and excuse me to everyone. Let people in front of you, and don't take yourself too seriously.

 

[JMohegan]

Tell me about it.

Believe me, I'm not passing those manners on to my kids. Talk about a waste of time.

I'm trying to imagine my sister being taught to curtsy or walk with books on her head, and this is really making me chuckle. My mother had enough trouble, getting her to sit up straight at dinner.

Of course, to this day I don't understand what the big deal is with elbows on the table, or why she objected so vehemently to worm races in the kitchen when I promised to clean up after.

You mentioned grammar and enunciation, and I do think that diction can be helpful in opening some doors. Not snooty sounding, but more newscaster. Katie Couric.

 

[CutieMouse]

H's mom's family had a thing going. The family had lost its cash and respectability to a large extent, but they were Southern, proud, and set, and Mom had to have her gloves on unless it was after five in the house or some arbitrary weird rule. Real Southern Gothic alcohol-soaked weird but very genteel.

... and in my world, I'm the one everyone comes to if they need to know if something is tacky or not, what to give as an appropriate gift in XYZ situation, what to wear to ___ event, how to properly phrase a thank you note (and how quickly they need to be sent), etc... broke as dirt, gracious as hell.

 

[graceanne]

I'm trying to imagine my sister being taught to curtsy or walk with books on her head, and this is really making me chuckle. My mother had enough trouble, getting her to sit up straight at dinner.

My mom is a control freak. We also had to line our shoes up in perfect rows, and put 100 strokes of the hairbrush (through our hair, you perv!), and and and

If she could find something to nitpick, she would. I once got my ass chewed cause the rocking chair was on the wrong side of the fireplace.

Of course, to this day I don't understand what the big deal is with elbows on the table, or why she objected so vehemently to worm races in the kitchen when I promised to clean up after.

My kids (sometimes) think I'm the coolest mom. I let them bring bugs and snakes and worms in the house. My son had a pet worm for a day until I convinced him to put it back outside. I do, however, request that all the bugs be outside by the end of the day, and they don't put them ON me.

You mentioned grammar and enunciation, and I do think that diction can be helpful in opening some doors. Not snooty sounding, but more newscaster. Katie Couric.

I never thought I sounded snooty, but I got constantly called snooty. Granted I was living out in the backwoods where aint is considered a word and grammatically correct. Either way, I got a lot less flack when I started using slang and bad grammar and being less careful.

I figure that I've got a lot on my plate, and stopping cussing at this point is more important than saying 'going to' instead of 'gonna'.

 

[JMohegan]

H's mom's family had a thing going. The family had lost its cash and respectability to a large extent, but they were Southern, proud, and set, and Mom had to have her gloves on unless it was after five in the house or some arbitrary weird rule. Real Southern Gothic alcohol-soaked weird but very genteel.

What is the point of those Southern lady gloves? I've always wondered that.

Is it to announce, in effect: 'I don't do any housework' kind of thing?

Or is it like those parasols in Gone With the Wind? Sun protection or whatever.

 

[Keroin]

Here's a manners question for parents...

When eating dinner as a family, do you insist that everyone stays at the table until the last person is finished? That was a set-in-stone-rule in my house, growing up, but I've noticed, while dining at the homes of friends with children, that this no longer seems to be a rule anyone cares about.

Opinions?

 

[JMohegan]

My mom is a control freak. We also had to line our shoes up in perfect rows, and put 100 strokes of the hairbrush (through our hair, you perv!), and and and

If she could find something to nitpick, she would. I once got my ass chewed cause the rocking chair was on the wrong side of the fireplace.



My kids (sometimes) think I'm the coolest mom. I let them bring bugs and snakes and worms in the house. My son had a pet worm for a day until I convinced him to put it back outside. I do, however, request that all the bugs be outside by the end of the day, and they don't put them ON me.



I never thought I sounded snooty, but I got constantly called snooty. Granted I was living out in the backwoods where aint is considered a word and grammatically correct. Either way, I got a lot less flack when I started using slang and bad grammar and being less careful.

I figure that I've got a lot on my plate, and stopping cussing at this point is more important than saying 'going to' instead of 'gonna'.

You *are* the coolest mom. Most definitely! I am seriously envious of your kids. My dog was the only non-human ever allowed in our house.

How do you feel about model airplanes, set on fire and launched out the window? After she caught me, she wouldn't let me do that either.

I think the diction thing is valuable to turn on, when necessary. For job interviews and such. I swear a lot (as you probably know) but can & do turn it off when in polite company.

 

[intothewoods]

Here's a manners question for parents...

When eating dinner as a family, do you insist that everyone stays at the table until the last person is finished? That was a set-in-stone-rule in my house, growing up, but I've noticed, while dining at the homes of friends with children, that this no longer seems to be a rule anyone cares about.

Opinions?

I think the children can be excused together, if there is more than one. It depends on a lot of things, but more or less it's not a hard and fast rule for me. I don't like for my kid to eat two bites and then leave the table either though.

 

[Netzach]

What is the point of those Southern lady gloves? I've always wondered that.

Is it to announce, in effect: 'I don't do any housework' kind of thing?

Or is it like those parasols in Gone With the Wind? Sun protection or whatever.

You are asking me?

Are you kidding?

My manners are marginally better than those of my family, but that's not saying much. I chew with my mouth closed 90 percent of the time and I have an inside voice.

 

[Netzach]

Here's a manners question for parents...

When eating dinner as a family, do you insist that everyone stays at the table until the last person is finished? That was a set-in-stone-rule in my house, growing up, but I've noticed, while dining at the homes of friends with children, that this no longer seems to be a rule anyone cares about.

Opinions?

I get chewed out for eating prior to M sitting down beside me on the couch. Now, I was always told that if food was of the gonna get cold variety, you got a free pass, but evidently he doesn't think so. I honestly don't know for sure, I was raised by wolves.

 

[Keroin]

I get chewed out for eating prior to M sitting down beside me on the couch. Now, I was always told that if food was of the gonna get cold variety, you got a free pass, but evidently he doesn't think so. I honestly don't know for sure, I was raised by wolves.

LOL. I'm much more chilled about food etiquette than I used to be. Took me years to unlearn my manners. I can handle people starting before me, in fact I prefer it. I hate it when I'm with a group at a restaurant and mine is the last meal to be served and everyone is sitting there, salivating, looking at me as if I am somehow responsible for the delay. For Codsake, eat!

But leaving the table early? Though I'd never say anything, it still presses the "rude" button in my brain. Thanks Mom.

I think the children can be excused together, if there is more than one. It depends on a lot of things, but more or less it's not a hard and fast rule for me. I don't like for my kid to eat two bites and then leave the table either though.

Like my nephews. Argh.

 

[graceanne]

Here's a manners question for parents...

When eating dinner as a family, do you insist that everyone stays at the table until the last person is finished? That was a set-in-stone-rule in my house, growing up, but I've noticed, while dining at the homes of friends with children, that this no longer seems to be a rule anyone cares about.

Opinions?

My kids have to ask to be excused, but they don't have to stay after their food is gone. But they do have to either finish or almost finish their food.

I get chewed out for eating prior to M sitting down beside me on the couch. Now, I was always told that if food was of the gonna get cold variety, you got a free pass, but evidently he doesn't think so. I honestly don't know for sure, I was raised by wolves.

I was always taught you don't start eating until the host/hostess starts eating. In my family that meant my mom. In our family we start eating as soon as we get the food, then once everyone has their food we take a moment to pray.

 

[Shankara20]

I think the diction thing is valuable to turn on, when necessary. For job interviews and such. I swear a lot (as you probably know) but can & do turn it off when in polite company.

I can play the roll of one step up when required. I still have the uniform of the upper middle class sales manager in my closet. Blazer, oxblood shoes with tassels and matching color belt, summer weight wool slacks, white button down shirts that have been professionally laundered with light starch. Because I was reaching "up" to work in that world I see folks in that uniform and I assume they are also "faking it" but not owing it - and that is a personality defect I am working on.

 

[Netzach]

I can play the roll of one step up when required. I still have the uniform of the upper middle class sales manager in my closet. Blazer, oxblood shoes with tassels and matching color belt, summer weight wool slacks, white button down shirts that have been professionally laundered with light starch. Because I was reaching "up" to work in that world I see folks in that uniform and I assume they are also "faking it" but not owing it - and that is a personality defect I am working on.

And I feel like I'm pretty much always in some act of visual fakery. The only time I didn't was a uniformed job as a museum guard, I wish we all had mao suits or something sometimes, weird as that is. We'd pay a whole lot more scrutiny to what people say and do.

 

[ecstaticsub]

Here's a manners question for parents...

When eating dinner as a family, do you insist that everyone stays at the table until the last person is finished? That was a set-in-stone-rule in my house, growing up, but I've noticed, while dining at the homes of friends with children, that this no longer seems to be a rule anyone cares about.

Opinions?

We all sit down at the same time and no one is allowed to start eating until the person who prepared the meal--whether it be my husband or I--picks up their fork first. This is something we have been really strict with the kids even when we are at other people's homes. We wait until the host or hostess starts to eat, the same for when dessert is served.

As far as waiting until everyone is done eating, we aren't as strict about that at home. Usually what happens is the kids finish first and start to clean up as my husband and I linger for conversation and to finish our meals. Though when we are guests we always wait until everyone finishes.

 

[midwestyankee]

Here's a manners question for parents...

When eating dinner as a family, do you insist that everyone stays at the table until the last person is finished? That was a set-in-stone-rule in my house, growing up, but I've noticed, while dining at the homes of friends with children, that this no longer seems to be a rule anyone cares about.

Opinions?

We wait for everyone to be seated and for a grace to be said before we begin eating (I put up with the grace for the sake of domestic tranquility.). We all stay at the table until the meal is finished. Children (even the 25 year old) ask to be excused. We regularly allow either son (the daughter lives on her own) to eat in front of the family room television if they wish, though attendance at the table is mandatory if we have company.

One rule that we maintained for years was that everyone ate a little of every food on the table. You ate what you took from the serving dish, so they learned to be prudent when using the serving spoon. There's a fabulous story about the time that my daughter refused to finish two slices of zucchini as a six year old, but that's for another day.

 

[intothewoods]

My kids have to ask to be excused, but they don't have to stay after their food is gone. But they do have to either finish or almost finish their food.

Oh yes, yes. They must ask to be excused. I don't require kidlet to clean his plate, but he must eat some vegetables to get more of the main course. I'm also big on trying everything.

 

[wicked woman]

Interesting that you ask. Just last week I was at an all day meeting with my partners. When it was time for lunch we all moved into the dining room...each of us ordering from an a la carte menu. As there were a number of us, it took a while for all of us to get our food. I didn't think anything of it, but waited for everyone to have their meal before I started mine.

To my surprise, someone asked if I was waiting for everyone to get their food to eat. I said 'yes'. They seemed amazed...I was amazed that none of them were waiting. Just common manners as far as I'm concerned. Those still waiting for their food always have the option of giving permission for others to start.

Someone mentioned that they were taught that you didn't have to wait if the food was hot...but you always had to wait with dessert.

I was always taught that you stay at the table until everyone is finished eating. Of course there may be an exception where you could be excused...but it wasn't to just go watch TV. For the most part, dinner time was the one time in the day that the whole family got together...consequently we're all slow eaters, since that's when we'd talk and catch up with everyone's day.

That's what I taught my kids...and that's what they're teaching theirs.

Manners are important. They're not just for going out to fancy restaurants. They're for the every day and family too. I'm a firm believer in teaching children manners...and expecting them to use them every day. It's respectful, and then they can go any where and know how to behave.

 

[Netzach]

Manners don't necessarily equate respect. They're not useless, and they're good social glue. But people can be very well mannered towards you with complete contempt. And some people aren't in the loop that well, but have hearts of gold - or their manners are so culturally specific that you have no idea what to do and they could be expressing all the politeness in the world and you have no idea.

 

[Keroin]

Tonight I read an article, in Vanity Fair, about the Noel family, who own F.G.G., which was a feeder fund for Bernie Madoff. They were new money, mixing with old money and it made me think of this discussion on class.

What I found interesting was, however greedy and culpable the Noel’s were, they sound as if they were fun, high-spirited folks – this did not sit well with the crowd in the Hamptons and elsewhere. Here’s a bit describing some of the behaviour people found so offensive:

A close friend of the family’s, who works in finance, says of Monica, “We’ve had dinners with them when we were down there [in Mustique]. The tennis pro and his girlfriend were having dinner the same night at their house. And so was the guy who worked on the house and did the wiring…She’s that type of person. She invites everybody on the beach.” The downside of this, he explains, is that she expects others to be as hospitable.

Wow, what a bitch. I mean, honestly, expecting people to treat the peasants respectfully. How dare she!

I laughed and laughed. Certainly I understand being annoyed at these people for not doing basic due diligence and, as a result, losing billions of their investors’ dollars, but being miffed because you have to eat with the hired help? Get. A. Life.

 

[Shankara20]

Manners don't necessarily equate respect. They're not useless, and they're good social glue. But people can be very well mannered towards you with complete contempt. And some people aren't in the loop that well, but have hearts of gold - or their manners are so culturally specific that you have no idea what to do and they could be expressing all the politeness in the world and you have no idea.

Spot on once again, you are.

Being polite is one thing, an external expression, having respect for others is something else altogether, an internal state of being. And I am not talking about the ideas some have that respect is connected to fear. "I have a gun, you had better respect me!"

 

[wicked woman]

Manners don't necessarily equate respect. They're not useless, and they're good social glue. But people can be very well mannered towards you with complete contempt. And some people aren't in the loop that well, but have hearts of gold - or their manners are so culturally specific that you have no idea what to do and they could be expressing all the politeness in the world and you have no idea.

Let me correct my comment...the actions can show respect...the attitude doesn't necessarily follow...though in the personal experience I was talking about, they did. So you're right...'don't necessarily' but may.

The example I gave in fact proves your point...were my fellow partners intentionally disrespectful by starting to eat before everyone had their food? No. But honestly I was surprised...not one of them waited...and one actually called me on it...perhaps equally surprised that I was.

Then again, I've often said they act like a bunch of teenaged boys ....(I'm the sole woman in the group).

 

[graceanne]

Spot on once again, you are.

Being polite is one thing, an external expression, having respect for others is something else altogether, an internal state of being. And I am not talking about the ideas some have that respect is connected to fear. "I have a gun, you had better respect me!"

Respect is something that is earned, and that takes time. Courtesy is something that should be shown to everyone, at least to start with. You can go from courtesy to bitchiness if need be. It's very hard to go from bitchiness to courtesy.