Was the movie "Basic Instinct" misogynistic/homophobic?

[AwkwardMD]

Yes, I'm well aware of post processing. What of it?

What about BBQ Pringles? Ever heard of those?

 

[desibabe2705]

I'd love to have this religious debate with you, because, as little as I think of Islam and Christianity, I find Judaism worse. But this isn't the place for it.

The Jews are used to this kind of dog-whistling. Make some obtuse claim and then scuttle away like little rats. Not only that, top it off with some bullshit about good faith. Christianity and Islam have literally destroyed entire civilisations. The Europeans reformed Christianity AFTER kicking Islam out, but Islam has just reached your shores again. Just wait until it bites you in the ass. Before anyone cries Islamophobia, I come from a place that has 200 million muslims, and I've seen first hand what they are all about. We've dealt with them for a thousand years.
And yes - on an unrelated note - I find it fascinating that the same people who cry feminism and trans rights defend Islam, an ideology that'll throw you off the rooftops the minute it gets the opportunity.

 

[nice90sguy]

I think you are confusing her lawyer with her agent

Actually I wasn't; her agent would also say that to her, of course!

Just last week I watched a new movie where one of the villains is a drag queen, apparently Pacific Islander. (Or at least the voice actor is Pasifika and the character was animated consistently with that.) It also features a lesbian couple who, while maybe not rising to "villain", are defined mostly by being awful parents, and another lesbian character who's ridiculously narcissistic and crappy to her girlfriend.

Remind me not to ask you the name of that movie

 

[nice90sguy]

PLEASE DON'T VENTURE INTO RELIGIOUS/POLITICAL TOPICS.

Mod: If this thread has run its couse, please lock/remove it.

 

[desibabe2705]

PLEASE DON'T VENTURE INTO RELIGIOUS/POLITICAL TOPICS.

Mod: If this thread has run its couse, please lock/remove it.

The thread's heading is literally a political question.

 

[nice90sguy]

Cultural attitudes to sexuality is ok.

 

[Xxllrs69xx]

The Jews are used to this kind of dog-whistling. Make some obtuse claim and then scuttle away like little rats. Not only that, top it off with some bullshit about good faith. Christianity and Islam have literally destroyed entire civilisations. The Europeans reformed Christianity AFTER kicking Islam out, but Islam has just reached your shores again. Just wait until it bites you in the ass. Before anyone cries Islamophobia, I come from a place that has 200 million muslims, and I've seen first hand what they are all about. We've dealt with them for a thousand years.
And yes - on an unrelated note - I find it fascinating that the same people who cry feminism and trans rights defend Islam, an ideology that'll throw you off the rooftops the minute it gets the opportunity.

You forgot to mention Hinduism…

How many people honestly think drinking cow piss and eating bullshit (literally) and then going for as wash in a holy river (Ganges) polluted with chemicals and excrement is going to purify them.

Totally agree though. All extremists are dangerous.

 

[Jackie.Hikaru]

Actually watched basic instinct to give an honest opinion, but you know what? Nevermind.
I’ll just say it seems like this toxic overspill into AH seems to be happening a lot lately. What gives? lol

 

[onehitwanda]

@AH_Mod good morning, some breakfast crumpets for you upthread

 

[SimonDoom]

`The thread raises an interesting question, what are examples of movies that ARE misogynistic? Not that feature instances of misogyny, but that in one way or another seem to promote it.

I think there's an element of misogyny in Hitchcock's movies, but I might be biased because I'm aware that he sometimes treated his lead actresses, like Tippi Hedren, badly.

 

[Auden James]

Yes, I'm well aware of post processing. What of it?

Might help explain the curious "shadow" you see in those frames.

 

[AwkwardMD]

`The thread raises an interesting question, what are examples of movies that ARE misogynistic? Not that feature instances of misogyny, but that in one way or another seem to promote it.

I think there's an element of misogyny in Hitchcock's movies, but I might be biased because I'm aware that he sometimes treated his lead actresses, like Tippi Hedren, badly.

Any movie you could consider as "having been deconstructed by Cabin In The Woods" probably counts. Not all slasher flicks thrive on the specific spectacle of violence toward women, but there are some.

EDIT: Joss Whedon has a complicated legacy, and I will not be answering any questions at this time.

 

[SimonDoom]

Any movie you could consider as "having been deconstructed by Cabin In The Woods" probably counts. Not all slasher flicks thrive on the specific spectacle of violence toward women, but there are some.

EDIT: Joss Whedon has a complicated legacy, and I will not be answering any questions at this time.

Apropos of your point and mine: is Psycho misogynistic? Was Hitchcock having fun seeing one of his typical icy blonde actresses hacked to bits? The villain in the story is "the mom" (although it's really Norman, so maybe that undercuts the misogyny theory). I wonder.

 

[SimonDoom]

EDIT: Joss Whedon has a complicated legacy, and I will not be answering any questions at this time.

I don't know much about Joss Whedon. I think I'm one of the few people who never watched an episode of Buffy, for whatever reason. I'm currently watching Firefly, which doesn't strike me as misogynistic.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Apropos of your point and mine: is Psycho misogynistic? Was Hitchcock having fun seeing one of his typical icy blonde actresses hacked to bits? The villain in the story is "the mom" (although it's really Norman, so maybe that undercuts the misogyny theory). I wonder.

I'll be honest with you, I have a hard time even calling Psycho transphobic (and by modern standards its way more vile toward trans women than cis women). Having one victim be a woman, having her death be kind of tittilating, having it happen in the shower?

Nah.

Psycho being an all-time classic does not place it above the concept of retrospective re-thinking. I just don't think it has any real venom for women in the same way that any of the dozens of 80's sorority house slasher films that imitated it do.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I don't know much about Joss Whedon. I think I'm one of the few people who never watched an episode of Buffy, for whatever reason. I'm currently watching Firefly, which doesn't strike me as misogynistic.

Firefly is amazing. Dollhouse is underrated. Buffy and Angel are both, simultaneously, great AND wildly overrated.

 

[StillStunned]

Firefly is amazing.

I'll be in my bunk.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I'll be in my bunk.

Jaynestown is one of the best episodes of television ever made, regardless of genre. Fight me.

 

[SimonDoom]

I'll be honest with you, I have a hard time even calling Psycho transphobic (and by modern standards its way more vile toward trans women than cis women). Having one victim be a woman, having her death be kind of tittilating, having it happen in the shower?

Nah.

Psycho being an all-time classic does not place it above the concept of retrospective re-thinking. I just don't think it has any real venom for women in the same way that any of the dozens of 80's sorority house slasher films that imitated it do.

I could easily be persuaded that you're right about this particular movie. I tossed it out there because I DO think Hitchcock shows signs of misogyny in some of his movies.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I could easily be persuaded that you're right about this particular movie. I tossed it out there because I DO think Hitchcock shows signs of misogyny in some of his movies.

I have not seen all of his films, but I bet I've seen Vertigo 30 times. Vertigo had a huge impact on me, how it used different shots to convey Jim Stewart's headspace. Fascinating stuff.

It’s always tricky trying to sort out something like this, where on the one hand maybe yeah there were some signs, and on the other hand most of Hitchcock's films were made in an era where women weren't allowed to have their own bank account and were functionally property. How much of whats in his films is him and how much is just prevailing societal attitudes?

Personally I think its better to just keep "what was happening at the time" in the back of your head when you're dealing with older stories, older media. It's not like people won't just go out and make something that is outright hateful when they have hate in their heart (like D.W. Griffiths Birth of a Nation, for example). Reserve the pitchforks for the stuff that really warrants it.

 

[onehitwanda]

 

[crookedletter]

I think the real issue here isn’t whether a certain character or creator is misogynistic. It’s about artistic freedom. Under the guise of criticism, some try to block the portrayal of certain negative human traits because they might “harm the social fabric.” You can’t make your character misogynistic, it might offend women. You can’t make them racist, it might offend minorities. You can’t depict the weak in a negative light, it might have real-life consequences. Where does it end? How is this any different from the LW crowd who insist on turning every story into a moral lecture?

What if I want a character who is sexist, violent, racist, or utterly depraved, not to teach a lesson, but simply because I find that character fascinating? What if my creativity has no interest in preaching love and world peace, and only wants to revel in being despicably nasty?

Did Marlon Brando traumatize that poor girl in Last Tango in Paris? Yes. Do I want that film censored? Absolutely not.

You can do all these things. You can do whatever you want. And then your audience can look at your work critically and point out the issues they have with it.

It's not about artistic freedom. You're free to make bad art that exemplifies -- or doesn't -- whatever broad or narrow worldview you want. You're not entitled to being above criticism.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I think a stickier example for conversation might be The Shining, not because of how the film portrays Wendy Torrance but for how Kubrick treated Shelly Duvall on set. At what point is actively fostering a hostile work environment for the only woman on set a problem?

Duvall herself admits that what he did got an amazing performance out of her. There's no question there, but "do the ends justify the means" is a question I don't know how to answer.

EDIT: "the only actress on set," I should have said. There were plenty of women in the crew.

 

[nice90sguy]

Vertigo

A really modern film, which I love. Hitchocks famous obsession with "ice-cool" blondes manifests in a lot of his movies. I think he shows the "male gaze" brilliantly.

 

[AwkwardMD]

A really modern film, which I love. Hitchocks famous obsession with "ice-cool" blondes manifests in a lot of his movies. I think he shows the "male gaze" brilliantly.

Vertigo was prescient, decades ahead of its time.