Was the movie "Basic Instinct" misogynistic/homophobic?

[AchtungNight]

Saw Basic Instinct on video a few months after it came out. I remember being both attracted and repulsed by Catherine. I was used to Sharon Stone as a villain - she was also one in Total Recall, though that character wasn’t quite as disturbing. I already knew about lesbians and bisexuals before watching the movie- L Ron Hubbard and Eric Lustbader featured them in novels I had read. I recall thinking that the solution to the movie plot of Jeanne Tripplehorn’s character framed and then killed was pretty convoluted too.

As for misogyny, I didn’t really think about it. There’s a school of thought that if you want proper feminism, you need to have female villains as well as heroes. I grew up watching Teela vs Evil-Lyn, Lady Jaye vs the Baroness, Elisa vs Demona, so I agree with that school. My stories feature female villains like Courtney/Kathleen and Mackenzie MacHeath for the same reasons- both were probably at least partially inspired by Catherine.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Leaving aside the misuse of "diverse" here (an individual character is never "diverse"; diversity is an atttribute of a group, but people use it instead of saying "minority" or "queer" or whatever they actually mean), this is still a ridiculous assertion. Of the kind invented by people who want to be outraged about "you can't do X these days".

Just last week I watched a new movie where one of the villains is a drag queen, apparently Pacific Islander. (Or at least the voice actor is Pasifika and the character was animated consistently with that.) It also features a lesbian couple who, while maybe not rising to "villain", are defined mostly by being awful parents, and another lesbian character who's ridiculously narcissistic and crappy to her girlfriend.

No outrage. No protests. Because the story was written in a way that saved audiences from having to wonder "do they think every queer person is like this?"

What was this mainstream big budget Hollywood blockbuster?

 

[Robin_Starveling]

Tell me you never bothered reading the interview.

No, I believe you that she was lied to. Which reminds me of another tale...

A man met his neighbor, someone he had long been feuding with, on the stairs of their building. The neighbor leaned in and whispered venomously, “I fucked your wife.” Then he smirked triumphantly and bolted down the stairs.

Something in the man’s confidence made the stunned husband believe he wasn’t bluffing, so he rushed home to confront his wife.

“Is it true?” he shouted hysterically as he burst through the door. “Did you sleep with the neighbor?”

“What? Who told you that?” the terrified wife stammered.

“He did!”

Her mouth fell open. She blinked for several seconds, then murmured, “He... he forced himself on me.”

“What? Tell me. How did it happen?”

“He knocked on the door that day and asked if he could come in. He’s our neighbor, so I let him. Once he closed the door behind him, he looked at me with that lustful stare and said, ‘You’re so hot. I’ve wanted to fuck you for so long.’”

“And then?”

“I don’t know, I was in shock. I just froze.”

“Did he hit you? Did he yell at you?”

“No, no, he just kept staring at me with that awful, hungry look.”

“And you didn’t tell him to get the hell out?”

“No, I told you, I was frozen.”

“And then what happened?”

“He came closer, lifted my dress, and took off my panties.”

“He tore them off?”

“No, he peeled them away slowly, almost ceremoniously, until he was on his knees and they were around my ankles.”

The suspicious husband decided to reenact the scene. He lifted his wife’s dress and began to lower her underwear. When they reached her ankles, he looked up at her and murmured, “You froze.”

They locked eyes for a long, charged moment until realization dawned on her. She swallowed hard and, with hesitant reluctance, lifted one leg out of her underwear and then the other.

Flying cats...

 

[Auden James]

Out of curiosity, I watched a hi rez version a year or two ago. You really can't see anything. If you go frame by frame, you see a shadow.

Ever heard of "post-processing" in digital film?

 

[alohadave]

Ever heard of "post-processing" in digital film?

Yes, I'm well aware of post processing. What of it?

 

[AwkwardMD]

Yes, I'm well aware of post processing. What of it?

What about BBQ Pringles? Ever heard of those?

 

[desibabe2705]

I'd love to have this religious debate with you, because, as little as I think of Islam and Christianity, I find Judaism worse. But this isn't the place for it.

The Jews are used to this kind of dog-whistling. Make some obtuse claim and then scuttle away like little rats. Not only that, top it off with some bullshit about good faith. Christianity and Islam have literally destroyed entire civilisations. The Europeans reformed Christianity AFTER kicking Islam out, but Islam has just reached your shores again. Just wait until it bites you in the ass. Before anyone cries Islamophobia, I come from a place that has 200 million muslims, and I've seen first hand what they are all about. We've dealt with them for a thousand years.
And yes - on an unrelated note - I find it fascinating that the same people who cry feminism and trans rights defend Islam, an ideology that'll throw you off the rooftops the minute it gets the opportunity.

 

[nice90sguy]

I think you are confusing her lawyer with her agent

Actually I wasn't; her agent would also say that to her, of course!

Just last week I watched a new movie where one of the villains is a drag queen, apparently Pacific Islander. (Or at least the voice actor is Pasifika and the character was animated consistently with that.) It also features a lesbian couple who, while maybe not rising to "villain", are defined mostly by being awful parents, and another lesbian character who's ridiculously narcissistic and crappy to her girlfriend.

Remind me not to ask you the name of that movie

 

[nice90sguy]

PLEASE DON'T VENTURE INTO RELIGIOUS/POLITICAL TOPICS.

Mod: If this thread has run its couse, please lock/remove it.

 

[desibabe2705]

PLEASE DON'T VENTURE INTO RELIGIOUS/POLITICAL TOPICS.

Mod: If this thread has run its couse, please lock/remove it.

The thread's heading is literally a political question.

 

[nice90sguy]

Cultural attitudes to sexuality is ok.

 

[Xxllrs69xx]

The Jews are used to this kind of dog-whistling. Make some obtuse claim and then scuttle away like little rats. Not only that, top it off with some bullshit about good faith. Christianity and Islam have literally destroyed entire civilisations. The Europeans reformed Christianity AFTER kicking Islam out, but Islam has just reached your shores again. Just wait until it bites you in the ass. Before anyone cries Islamophobia, I come from a place that has 200 million muslims, and I've seen first hand what they are all about. We've dealt with them for a thousand years.
And yes - on an unrelated note - I find it fascinating that the same people who cry feminism and trans rights defend Islam, an ideology that'll throw you off the rooftops the minute it gets the opportunity.

You forgot to mention Hinduism…

How many people honestly think drinking cow piss and eating bullshit (literally) and then going for as wash in a holy river (Ganges) polluted with chemicals and excrement is going to purify them.

Totally agree though. All extremists are dangerous.

 

[Jackie.Hikaru]

Actually watched basic instinct to give an honest opinion, but you know what? Nevermind.
I’ll just say it seems like this toxic overspill into AH seems to be happening a lot lately. What gives? lol

 

[onehitwanda]

@AH_Mod good morning, some breakfast crumpets for you upthread

 

[SimonDoom]

`The thread raises an interesting question, what are examples of movies that ARE misogynistic? Not that feature instances of misogyny, but that in one way or another seem to promote it.

I think there's an element of misogyny in Hitchcock's movies, but I might be biased because I'm aware that he sometimes treated his lead actresses, like Tippi Hedren, badly.

 

[Auden James]

Yes, I'm well aware of post processing. What of it?

Might help explain the curious "shadow" you see in those frames.

 

[AwkwardMD]

`The thread raises an interesting question, what are examples of movies that ARE misogynistic? Not that feature instances of misogyny, but that in one way or another seem to promote it.

I think there's an element of misogyny in Hitchcock's movies, but I might be biased because I'm aware that he sometimes treated his lead actresses, like Tippi Hedren, badly.

Any movie you could consider as "having been deconstructed by Cabin In The Woods" probably counts. Not all slasher flicks thrive on the specific spectacle of violence toward women, but there are some.

EDIT: Joss Whedon has a complicated legacy, and I will not be answering any questions at this time.

 

[SimonDoom]

Any movie you could consider as "having been deconstructed by Cabin In The Woods" probably counts. Not all slasher flicks thrive on the specific spectacle of violence toward women, but there are some.

EDIT: Joss Whedon has a complicated legacy, and I will not be answering any questions at this time.

Apropos of your point and mine: is Psycho misogynistic? Was Hitchcock having fun seeing one of his typical icy blonde actresses hacked to bits? The villain in the story is "the mom" (although it's really Norman, so maybe that undercuts the misogyny theory). I wonder.

 

[SimonDoom]

EDIT: Joss Whedon has a complicated legacy, and I will not be answering any questions at this time.

I don't know much about Joss Whedon. I think I'm one of the few people who never watched an episode of Buffy, for whatever reason. I'm currently watching Firefly, which doesn't strike me as misogynistic.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Apropos of your point and mine: is Psycho misogynistic? Was Hitchcock having fun seeing one of his typical icy blonde actresses hacked to bits? The villain in the story is "the mom" (although it's really Norman, so maybe that undercuts the misogyny theory). I wonder.

I'll be honest with you, I have a hard time even calling Psycho transphobic (and by modern standards its way more vile toward trans women than cis women). Having one victim be a woman, having her death be kind of tittilating, having it happen in the shower?

Nah.

Psycho being an all-time classic does not place it above the concept of retrospective re-thinking. I just don't think it has any real venom for women in the same way that any of the dozens of 80's sorority house slasher films that imitated it do.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I don't know much about Joss Whedon. I think I'm one of the few people who never watched an episode of Buffy, for whatever reason. I'm currently watching Firefly, which doesn't strike me as misogynistic.

Firefly is amazing. Dollhouse is underrated. Buffy and Angel are both, simultaneously, great AND wildly overrated.

 

[StillStunned]

Firefly is amazing.

I'll be in my bunk.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I'll be in my bunk.

Jaynestown is one of the best episodes of television ever made, regardless of genre. Fight me.

 

[SimonDoom]

I'll be honest with you, I have a hard time even calling Psycho transphobic (and by modern standards its way more vile toward trans women than cis women). Having one victim be a woman, having her death be kind of tittilating, having it happen in the shower?

Nah.

Psycho being an all-time classic does not place it above the concept of retrospective re-thinking. I just don't think it has any real venom for women in the same way that any of the dozens of 80's sorority house slasher films that imitated it do.

I could easily be persuaded that you're right about this particular movie. I tossed it out there because I DO think Hitchcock shows signs of misogyny in some of his movies.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I could easily be persuaded that you're right about this particular movie. I tossed it out there because I DO think Hitchcock shows signs of misogyny in some of his movies.

I have not seen all of his films, but I bet I've seen Vertigo 30 times. Vertigo had a huge impact on me, how it used different shots to convey Jim Stewart's headspace. Fascinating stuff.

It’s always tricky trying to sort out something like this, where on the one hand maybe yeah there were some signs, and on the other hand most of Hitchcock's films were made in an era where women weren't allowed to have their own bank account and were functionally property. How much of whats in his films is him and how much is just prevailing societal attitudes?

Personally I think its better to just keep "what was happening at the time" in the back of your head when you're dealing with older stories, older media. It's not like people won't just go out and make something that is outright hateful when they have hate in their heart (like D.W. Griffiths Birth of a Nation, for example). Reserve the pitchforks for the stuff that really warrants it.