Vick: Guilty? Guilty? Guilty?

[3113]

I don't keep up with sports, but I am interested in the latest on this case which, last I heard, was a matter of "allegations" and protestations of innocence, nothing proven yet.

Now, however, we have this. So...is he guilty or is this plea bargaining? Is the NFL going to do anything? What will happen to him on the field as compared to off the field?

NFL's Vick to plead guilty

Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick announced Monday he has agreed to plead guilty to federal dogfighting charges that could result in a prison term.

Already banned from his team's training camp with the season opener only weeks away, Vick is also being investigated by the NFL. A suspension by the league could end his athletic career at a point when he should be nearing the peak of his profession.

"We totally condemn the conduct outlined in the charges, which is inconsistent with what Michael Vick previously told both our office and the Falcons," the league said Monday in a statement. "We will conclude our own review under the league's personal conduct policy as soon as possible."

Opinions? Thoughts? Predictions?

 

[cloudy]

On the news this morning, it was said that the NFL wouldn't make a decision about whether or not Vick would be banned from competing in the league until after he was released from his prison term.

 

[R. Richard]

The NFL has made a major change in direction in the past couple of years. In the past, unless a player was in prison, he was on the team. However, there got to be too many alleged crimes by NFL players and the league began to hand out major suspension, including an entire season. An entire season of suspension typically means at least a million dollars and frequently much more.

It is hard for those who don't follow sports to understand the effect of a year's suspension on the team of the suspended player. The team works as a unit. The loss of a major component to that unit can be the difference between a playoff appearance and milions of dollars for the team owner and also-ran status, which not only means the loss of playoff revenues, but also less ticket sales for the following year.

Teams are now considering the 'character' of a player at draft time. If a player is likely to get into trouble with the law, his draft status goes way down, which means the loss of millions of dollars for the player.

Vick is unlikely ever to play again in the NFL.

 

[jomar]

I think he's plea bargaining to avoid more serious charges. At least that's what an newspaper article suggested. Yeah, he may never play again. So is this a case of a guy who was protected from consequences all his life? Or is he just a short sighted, impulsive dumbass who was reckless and tossed it all away?

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Latest news, 3... He copped a plea.

His problem was there were three others involved in his dog fight business who already copped and pointed their fingers at him as the righ leader. I've been waiting for his deal to be made public. There was no way he was going to continue protesting his innocence and go to trial.

The fact that he was already barred from the NFL, so his career was dead, really didn't leave him much choice.

In some ways, I see this as a good thing. Vick is an example for all the other millionaire Ghetto brats (black and white) playing in the NFL and NBA. Straighten up or get the hell out.

 

[Belegon]

I've been waiting for his deal to be made public. There was no way he was going to continue protesting his innocence and go to trial.

Details on the plea bargain agreement will not be made public until Vick's next court appearance on Monday.

This is a sad case. Not only are there the horrible things about the animals, there are also gambling allegations and many smaller issues.

Vick's intention to try and fight the charges was basically halted by the guilty pleas of the three other defendants in the case, all of whom agreed to testify against Michael.

 

[jomar]

Details on the plea bargain agreement will not be made public until Vick's next court appearance on Monday.

This is a sad case. Not only are there the horrible things about the animals, there are also gambling allegations and many smaller issues.

Vick's intention to try and fight the charges was basically halted by the guilty pleas of the three other defendants in the case, all of whom agreed to testify against Michael.

Which is why he pled guilty to lesser charges. I think the paper said he could (likely) get up to 2 years. Doing so avoids charges for which he would get far longer prison time. It is a sad case.

This is some latest news:

STAR gridiron quarterback Michael Vick looks set to trade in his career for jail, after agreeing to plead guilty to running an illegal dog-fighting ring.

The Atlanta Falcons player has been accused by his co-defendants of helping to drown or hang at least eight pitbull terriers that under-performed in dog fights.

The case against Vick, which alleges that dogs that lost fights were electrocuted, shot, drowned or hanged, has been met with widespread disgust and outrage across America.

Vick has reportedly pocketed more than $US60 million from his dazzling six-season career in the National Football League, which began when he was the league's No. 1 pick in 2001.

He is expected to be sentenced next week and faces up to five years' jail and $US250,000 in fines.

He is tipped to spend about a year behind bars.

Vick's lawyer, Billy Martin, said the player had accepted a plea deal after consulting his family.

Mr Martin said Vick would accept full responsibility for the mistakes he has made.

"Michael wishes to apologise again to everyone who has been hurt by this matter," he said.

Vick's decision to accept a plea deal from federal prosecutors came as a Grand Jury was hearing evidence against him.

The hearing could have decided to lay harsher charges against the player, including racketeering and gambling.

Vick's career, endorsements and reputation are now in tatters.

NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell has already banned Vick from Falcons training.

He faces a lifetime ban from football under the league's personal conduct policy.

The dynamic player, who was the No. 1 NFL pick in 2001, has already suffered a backlash from sponsors, with Nike suspending the release of a new Michael Vick shoe and Reebok withdrawing his jerseys from sale.

Three co-defendants of Vick had already agreed to plea deals that required them to provide statements against Vick, who initially denied having any involvement.

Vick is accused of bankrolling the "Bad Newz Kennels" operation on Vick's Virginia property.

The investigation into his alleged dog fighting activities began in April when dozens of pitbull dogs and dog-fighting equipment was found on the property.

The court documents say the search found about 54 American pitbull terriers, some of which had scars and injuries appearing to be related to dog fighting.

 

[carsonshepherd]

From the very beginning, I predicted his cohorts would turn on him. I'm glad they did. They were going down; they dragged him down with them. I'm not going to visit this thread anymore because I've been following this case closely, and it makes me too angry to discuss it rationally. Whatever punishment he gets, it won't be close to what he deserves for torturing animals.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I'm still holding my breath until things are truly final, but so far this looks like some very good work on the part of the investigators and prosecutors. Dog fighting is difficult to prosecute even under ordinary circumstances; when you're dealing with someone capable of fielding a high-powered defense team, you're facing the potential for huge expenses ending in no results. It looks like they really gave this careful thought and drew the net skillfully closed.

I'd be surprised if Vick was given anything like the maximum possible sentence, given the plea agreement, but any substantial prison sentence will be a real victory. As R. Richard notes, a year out of the short career of a professional football player is a very serious financial blow; I wouldn't call that a reason to show any special mercy in his sentence (since it only means that he makes immense amounts of money anyway), but it does give one some hope that he'll feel the punishment.

I do appreciate the NFL's awkward financial position, but the decision to delay a ruling on possible suspension until he's out of prison makes it clear where their priorities are. I'd just been saying to the SO that it would undoubtedly be tempting for the NFL to later reduce any suspension once the story had blown over; they've gone one better on that and chosen not to enact any penalty at all until they're sure they have to.

 

[sr71plt]

Early on Vick's friends noted that dog fighting (and betting on it) was part of the culture of the area Vick came from (southeastern Virginia). That's true. The pity is that everyone wanted to feed off his football prowess so much through his high school, college, and pro years that they did nothing to try to socialize him better (if that was going to be possible). I watched his career at nearby Virginia Tech, and he continually got away with bad--some criminal--behavior. This is a sickness of collegiate sports--becoming essentially pro sports early. Vick should have been in prison long before he got to the NFL--that or raised by society better (if that was possible). Killing dogs isn't the worst of the crimes he has got a bye on (but, yes, it's heinous and reveals a personality that certainly shouldn't be given any role model position in life, no matter how much talent he has for the game).

 

[Emperor_Nero]

I do appreciate the NFL's awkward financial position, but the decision to delay a ruling on possible suspension until he's out of prison makes it clear where their priorities are. I'd just been saying to the SO that it would undoubtedly be tempting for the NFL to later reduce any suspension once the story had blown over; they've gone one better on that and chosen not to enact any penalty at all until they're sure they have to.

My understanding of this is that if the NFL decides to wait to issue punishment, it is for legal reasons, so that there is no ambiguity in that their suspension does not run concurrently with his prison sentence. Since Roger Goodall took over as commish, he doesn't seem to be accepting any hint of criminal behavior (i.e. -- suspending Adam "Pacman" Jones for the entire season and he hasn't even been charged with any crimes, just repeatedly questioned). I suspect they will come down hard on Vick, but if they opt not to go with a lifetime ban, they want to make sure the suspension he gets is totally served after he's out of prison.

 

[BlackShanglan]

My understanding of this is that if the NFL decides to wait to issue punishment, it is for legal reasons, so that there is no ambiguity in that their suspension does not run concurrently with his prison sentence. Since Roger Goodall took over as commish, he doesn't seem to be accepting any hint of criminal behavior (i.e. -- suspending Adam "Pacman" Jones for the entire season and he hasn't even been charged with any crimes, just repeatedly questioned). I suspect they will come down hard on Vick, but if they opt not to go with a lifetime ban, they want to make sure the suspension he gets is totally served after he's out of prison.

Ah, very interesting! Thank you for that new perspective. There's hope yet.

 

[Lee Chambers]

I hope when Michael Vick and his fellows die that they're sent to a level of Hell that has a large, open fighting pit. There, they will put against one another with various cruel and improvised weapons such as broken beer bottles or pieces of rusted metal. And I hope there are dog-men who sit in the stands taking bets on them.

That is my vision of justice.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Football is the game of the gods. Titans and heroes of the gridiron. Forgive them, Father, for whatever they do.

 

[S-Des]

OK, since I'm a sports (and sports talk show) junkie, I've been hearing a lot about this case. Yes, the experts predict a year, but the judge could give more if he wanted to. The federal charge doesn't include the cruelty to animals, so the state could still technically charge him if they wanted to. The Falcons are keeping him on the payroll temporarily because of his signing bonus. They gave him 27 million or so up front, and the way it's negotiated, they can sue for some of it back if he violates his contract. However, if they cut him, the money is his, free and clear so expect legal wranglings as soon as his plea deal is complete. The NFL is likely to give him a 1 year suspension but doubtful to do more than 2.

So the question is, will he be back? The football experts I've listened to have said yes. He's talented, will still be adequately young, so someone who is desperate will take a chance. He won't be seeing any more big up front money, but they were certain he'd play again if he stays healthy and in shape. I'm mixed because part of me doesn't want to see him any more, but then again we don't prevent felons from working (and I wouldn't call football a national security level job). Maybe this will turn out to be a good lesson for kids who are growing up in cultures like the one that turned out Vick. He's publicly humiliated, going to jail, has ruined his career, lost his endorsement deals . . . maybe it's enough to get through to a few people who's skills are taking them somewhere.

 

[R. Richard]

Read it and peep!

Vick could still face charges in a Virginia state court

RICHMOND, Va. (AP) -- Michael Vick's legal troubles from dogfighting could get even worse.

The Atlanta Falcons quarterback faces possible prosecution in state court, where punishment might far exceed the maximum five years in prison that could await him in his federal case.

Local prosecutor Gerald Poindexter has said he likely will pursue charges against Vick, who has plummeted from favorite son to a symbol of animal abuse in the four months since authorities raided his Surry County property. Poindexter says the case could go before a county grand jury Sept. 25.

Poindexter did not return messages left by The Associated Press at his office and on his cell phone Tuesday.

Among the state laws Vick could be charged with violating are those against dogfighting and animal cruelty. Both are felonies punishable by up to five years in prison.

"The real question is how much overlap there would be between anything the local prosecutor would charge and what the federal prosecutors charged," said Linda Malone, a criminal procedure expert and Marshall-Wythe Foundation professor of law at the College of William and Mary. "There are some limitations on duplication."

Vick said through a lawyer Monday that he will plead guilty to a federal charge of conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and conspiracy to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture. Malone said the state dogfighting charges probably would not be considered duplicative.

"The essence of the conspiracy charge is the agreement" between Vick and his coconspirators, Malone said.

Three Vick associates have pleaded guilty to the conspiracy charge and said Vick provided virtually all the gambling and operating funds for the "Bad Newz Kennels" dogfighting enterprise. Two of them also said Vick participated in executing at least eight underperforming dogs, raising the possibility of the animal cruelty charges.

Convictions on eight animal cruelty counts could result in up to 40 years in prison if five-year terms for each count was imposed to run consecutively, but that's seldom done. Each dogfighting count could run the sentence even higher.

Vick also was facing the possibility of additional federal charges from a new grand jury meeting this week in Richmond, but his deal with prosecutors means that's now highly unlikely.

The 27-year-old player will enter his plea agreement Monday. A government official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the terms are not final, told The Associated Press that prosecutors will recommend a sentence of one year to 18 months. However, U.S. District Judge Henry Hudson is not bound by that recommendation or by federal sentencing guidelines that will call for less than the five-year maximum.

James D. "Butch" Williams Jr., one of Vick's five defense attorneys, said his client is fully aware he could be facing a long stretch in prison.

"Michael's been fully apprised of all angles, all aspects," Williams said.

It's still unclear whether all this will end the career of one of the NFL's most dazzling players.

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell could rule by the end of the week, but will probably wait until Vick actually enters his plea. The league is waiting for a report by its own observers, a group headed by Eric Holder a former deputy U.S. attorney general.

"The commissioner has not decided on a specific timetable on Michael Vick's status," league spokesman Greg Aiello said Tuesday.

Vick has been barred from training camp by the NFL, and Goodell has asked the Falcons not to take any action until the league rules.

Goodell can suspend Vick under the NFL's personal conduct policy. While the league hasn't said whether a potential suspension would be concurrent with Vick's prison sentence, it probably would take effect once he is released from custody.

That means Vick likely would miss both the 2007 and 2008 seasons.

The Falcons in 2004 signed Vick to a 10-year, $130 million contract -- at the time, one of the largest in NFL history. The bonus and guaranteed money he received in his contract totaled $44 million, and the team might try to reclaim part of that.

Vick has also lost lucrative contracts with sponsors. Rawlings, Nike, Reebok and Upper Deck are among the companies that have either ended contracts with him or stopped sales of his merchandise.

 

[Belegon]

as far as his future in the league, the gambling allegations are very important. Drug use, even illegal actions off the field don't cast doubt on the games...

...but implications that Vick was actively involved in the administration of a gambling ring, even one not involving team sports, will push the League towards a lifetime ban.

Vick's future as a "star" is over. He can end up as a "rebirth" story but he will never again be the top endorsement draw in the NFL.

 

[3113]

Maybe this will turn out to be a good lesson for kids who are growing up in cultures like the one that turned out Vick. He's publicly humiliated, going to jail, has ruined his career, lost his endorsement deals . . . maybe it's enough to get through to a few people who's skills are taking them somewhere.

*Sigh* How much you wanna bet he "rediscovers" God while in Jail? Don't get me wrong--I'm not saying that felons who are born again can't be genuine in their new found faith and conscience...but I do think that a few of them use it as a "get-out-of-bad-public-image free!" card.

If Jesus has forgiven their sins, why can't their fans, right?

 

[BlackShanglan]

Football is the game of the gods. Titans and heroes of the gridiron. Forgive them, Father, for whatever they do.

My God, you have some puny gods and heroes.

 

[sr71plt]

It will be interesting to see what America does with NFL free agent little brother, Marcus Vick, who also played at Virginia Tech (and was thrown off the team for his own attitude infractions). Will he show the family can clean up its act? Will the NFL ignore his past history indicating the direction he's headed in in his brother's wake? Will he follow the direct path of big brother with the "help" of the sports world?

Some hope for the family, though. Cousin Aaron Brooks (UVa footballer and former Oakland Raiders quarterback) has been a straight arrow.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Thanks, S-Des and R. Richard, for the points on the state laws. Very interesting. Fingers crossed there.

sr71plt has a good point too. I remember someone saying similar things during the Kobe Bryant trial. Without opining on the truth of the allegations or suggesting that these facts mitigated any possible crime that had occurred, the commentator pointed out how weirdly distorting it was for young men to come of age in that sort of environment - and as sr71plt points out, this is now starting down in high school with the more talented players. Imagine what never hearing the word "no" from the age of fifteen forward could do to a person, especially when it gets coupled with massive amounts of money.

Honestly, I would not know what to do if I had a child in that position. I think I'd be considerably more worried than elated.

 

[S-Des]

*Sigh* How much you wanna bet he "rediscovers" God while in Jail? Don't get me wrong--I'm not saying that felons who are born again can't be genuine in their new found faith and conscience...but I do think that a few of them use it as a "get-out-of-bad-public-image free!" card.

If Jesus has forgiven their sins, why can't their fans, right?

There are many who do find religion (or some positive philosophy) when they hit rock bottom (I hear that it's a requirement of AA). Unfortunately, they're overshadowed by people who use it as a dodge. It's reached the point where you just have to take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Emperor_Nero]

Honestly, I would not know what to do if I had a child in that position. I think I'd be considerably more worried than elated.

Having seen several high level athletes at high school, college and pro levels, the parents are usually as bad or worse than the kids. Nobody is telling them no either and people are willing to let them go deep into debt to get whatever they want, in the hope the kid makes it and then takes care of old mom and dad.

Not saying there aren't plenty of exceptions, but usually when the kids are good people, the parents are too -- and when the kid ends up turning out like Michael Vick, I'll bet you dimes to dollars that the parents are the same way.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Having seen several high level athletes at high school, college and pro levels, the parents are usually as bad or worse than the kids. Nobody is telling them no either and people are willing to let them go deep into debt to get whatever they want, in the hope the kid makes it and then takes care of old mom and dad.

Not saying there aren't plenty of exceptions, but usually when the kids are good people, the parents are too -- and when the kid ends up turning out like Michael Vick, I'll bet you dimes to dollars that the parents are the same way.

*nods* The school district in which my mother teaches just removed the option of "social" grade repeats - that is, holding a student back a year despite passing grades on the grounds that he or she would be socially better off in a lower grade - because of its growing popularity with parents hoping to increase their child's showing on the sports field. I seem to recall that it was one of the local football coaches who held his son back twice. If I'm remembering this correctly, I think the school district also ruled that students older than the "standard" graduation age are no longer allowed to compete in sports.

It's sad that it would come to that.

 

[3113]

There are many who do find religion (or some positive philosophy) when they hit rock bottom (I hear that it's a requirement of AA). Unfortunately, they're overshadowed by people who use it as a dodge. It's reached the point where you just have to take it with a grain of salt.

But as compared to someone in AA, Vick didn't say, "Man, look at what I'm doing to dogs and shit, I've got a problem!" Vick said, "How do I get out of this..." and found, to his dismay, that there was no escape, so to jail he goes. I think it's why I'll be a little skeptical if he does announce that he rediscovered God while in prison. Because it's likely to seem less like a way of "turning his life around" (i.e. that he had a terrible problem and did terrible things, and needed heavenly help to solve that problem) and more like a way of convincing folk to let him go back to a life of wealth and fame.

I suppose, to my way of thinking, that anyone looking at their "problem" in this instance, would realize that in this instance, wealth and fame were their alcohol, and that, as in AA, giving themselves over to God wasn't enough...they would also have to show good faith by going cold turkey on that alcohol. That would demonstrate their seriousness when it came to turning their life around.

At least, that's the way I see it.