US Using Napalm in Iraq. - Is this a great country or what?

thebullet

Rebel without applause
Joined
Feb 25, 2003
Posts
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Nov 28 2004

US uses banned weapon... but was Tony Blair told?

By Paul Gilfeather, Political Editor

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=14920109&method=full&siteid=106694&

headline=fallujah-napalmed-name_page.html

US troops are secretly using outlawed napalm gas to wipe
out remaining insurgents in and around Fallujah.

News that President George W. Bush has sanctioned the use
of napalm, a deadly cocktail of polystyrene and jet fuel
banned by the United Nations in 1980, will stun governments
around the world.

And last night Tony Blair was dragged into the row as furious Labour MPs demanded he face the Commons over it.
Reports claim that innocent civilians have died in napalm
attacks, which turn victims into human fireballs as the gel
bonds flames to flesh.

Outraged critics have also demanded that Mr Blair threatens
to withdraw British troops from Iraq unless the US abandons
one of the world's most reviled weapons. Halifax Labour MP
Alice Mahon said: "I am calling on Mr Blair to make an emergency statement to the Commons to explain why this is happening. It begs the question: 'Did we know about this hideous weapon's use in Iraq?'"

Since the American assault on Fallujah there have been reports of "melted" corpses, which appeared to have napalm injuries.

Last August the US was forced to admit using the gas in Iraq.

A 1980 UN convention banned the use of napalm against
civilians - after pictures of a naked girl victim fleeing in Vietnam shocked the world.

America, which didn't ratify the treaty, is the only country in the world still using the weapon.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2003-08/10/article10.shtml

U.S. Admits Using Napalm Bombs In Iraq: Report

"The U.S. is the only country that has used napalm for a
long time. I am not aware of any other country that uses
it," Pike

WASHINGTON, August 10 (IslamOnline.net & News
Agencies) - The United States admitted dropping the
internationally-banned incendiary weapon of napalm on
Iraq, despite earlier denials by the Pentagon that the
"horrible" weapon had not been used in the three-week invasion.

An upgraded type of the weapon, a terrifying mixture of jet
fuel and polystyrene that sticks to skin as it burns, was
used in March and April 2003, when dozens of napalm bombs
were dropped near bridges over the Saddam Canal and the
Tigris river, south of Baghdad, the Independent reported
Sunday, August 10.

"We napalmed both those [bridge] approaches," the paper
quoted Colonel James Alles, commander of Marine Air Group
11, as saying.

"Unfortunately there were people there ... you could see
them in the [cockpit] video. They were Iraqi soldiers. It's no great way to die," said Alles. On March 22 a correspondent for Sydney Morning Herald, traveling with U.S. marines reported that napalm was used in an attack on Iraqi troops at Safwan Hill, near the Kuwait border.

His account was based on statements by two U.S. marines
officers on the ground.

"Safwan Hill went up in a huge fireball and the observation post was obliterated. I pity anyone who is in there," a Marine sergeant said

The Pentagon insisted at the time the statement was "patently false".

"The U.S. took napalm out of service in the 1970s. We completed the destruction of our last batch of napalm on April 4, 2001, and no longer maintain any stocks of napalm," Lieutenant-Commander Jeff Davis, from the Office of the Assistant Secretary for Defense had said.

'Generals Love Napalm'

But a Pentagon official told Agence France-Presse (AFP) on
Thursday that U.S. forces used the new type against Iraqi
forces in their drive towards Baghdad and defended their
use as legal and necessary.

The official, who did not wish to be identified, said that U.S. marines jets dropped the fire bombs at least once to destroy Iraqi positions at Safwan.

"It is like this: you've got [an] enemy that's hard to get at. And it will save your own lives to use it. There were no international conventions against it, the official said.

Marines used the bombs on at least two other occasions during the drive to Baghdad, the San Diego Union-Tribune reported this week.

"The generals love napalm… it has a big psychological effect," the paper quoted Alles as saying.

Marine Corps Maj-Gen Jim Amos confirmed to the paper that
napalm was used on several occasions in the invasion.

A 1980 U.N. convention banned the use against civilian targets of napalm. The U.S., which did not sign the treaty, is one of the few countries that makes use of the weapon, as it was employed notoriously against both civilian and military targets in the Vietnam war, according to the Independent.

The revelation that napalm was used in the invasion of Iraq, while the Pentagon denied it, has outraged opponents of the war.

"Most of the world understands that napalm and incendiaries
are a horrible, horrible weapon," Robert Musil, director of the organization Physicians for Social Responsibility, told the British paper.

"It takes up an awful lot of medical resources. It creates horrible wounds." Musil said denial of its use "fits a pattern of deception [by the U.S. administration]".

It Is Still Napalm

The Pentagon said it had not tried to deceive. It drew a
distinction between traditional napalm, first invented in
1942, and the weapons dropped in Iraq, which it calls Mark
77 firebombs. They weigh 510lbs, and consist of 44lbs of
polystyrene-like gel and 63 gallons of jet fuel.

John Pike, director of the military studies group lobalSecurity.Org, said: "You can call it something other than napalm but it is still napalm. It has been reformulated in the sense that they now use a different petroleum distillate, but that is it. The U.S. is the only country that has used napalm for a long time. I am not aware of any other country that uses it."

Musil said the Pentagon's effort to draw a distinction between the weapons was outrageous.

"It's Orwellian. They do not want the public to know. It's a lie," he said.

After the offensive on Iraq ended, Iraqis began to complain
about unexploded cluster bombs that still litter the r
areas and the U.S. forces failed to take them away.
 
SummerMorning said:
At least *my* country doesn't use napalm.

Meaning?

Sorry, I can't tell if you're trying to rub in the fact that I call this place home and have to accept that we're responsible for atrocities such as this.

~lucky
 
lucky-E-leven said:
Meaning?

Sorry, I can't tell if you're trying to rub in the fact that I call this place home and have to accept that we're responsible for atrocities such as this.

~lucky

No particular meaning. Just mentioning that it's a relief I don't have to be burdened with that kind of response from every foreigner I meet.

PS - it rubs itself in on its own!
 
Having studied warfare for most of my life I understand why napalm is used. It is a terrifyingly effective weapon.

Remember my post a while back about the inherent inaccuracy of bombing? Napalm doesn't need to be accurate.

However, understanding is not the same as condoning. Because of the wide area effect of napalm, using it in a largely urban environment such as Fallujah guarantees heavy civilian casualties.

I know that in modern warfare there is no such a thing as a non-combatant, but such a stance is flat out evil.

As Sun Tzu pointed out, the point of war is not to destroy your enemy, but to defeat your opponent. Like surgery, combat must be well planned and quickly executed to be successful.

And if you're not going to be successful at something, why waste your time doing it?
 
rgraham666 said:
Having studied warfare for most of my life I understand why napalm is used. It is a terrifyingly effective weapon.

Remember my post a while back about the inherent inaccuracy of bombing? Napalm doesn't need to be accurate.

However, understanding is not the same as condoning. Because of the wide area effect of napalm, using it in a largely urban environment such as Fallujah guarantees heavy civilian casualties.

I know that in modern warfare there is no such a thing as a non-combatant, but such a stance is flat out evil.

As Sun Tzu pointed out, the point of war is not to destroy your enemy, but to defeat your opponent. Like surgery, combat must be well planned and quickly executed to be successful.

And if you're not going to be successful at something, why waste your time doing it?

The US army hasn't the skills to fight terrorists. They've not had to deal with them for years like the British Army or the Spanish and haven't the abilities to deal with the guerilla tactics. Added to this, their every movement is under tremendous media speculation. I don't think it's that cynical to say that the difference between a guerilla fighter and a tragically killed civilian who's face is shown on Al-Jazeera is often a pulse. The Americans' advantage is in heavy weaponry and sheer brute force.

If I took all political considerations out of it, the obvious answer would be to move a batallion of Scots Guard and an SAS unit into Fallujah - terrorism and close-quarter fighting experts and the finest special forces in the world respectively. It'd never happen, because the American government don't want to look like they're asking for help and HM Government can't take the fall-out of British soldiers being put in that much danger.

Although I cannot condone it, it was always going to be the solution chosen. The US press and populace demand nothing less than victory, yet they cry outrage at every dead American soldier. The choice is between using overwhelming military superiority to crush everyone, or be reduced to a style of fighting where your army are relative amateurs and will be decimated by guerillas who know the territory and have human shields.

The Earl
 
Some very strong theorists in Philosophy of War (one of my colleagues teaches it) maintain that the manner of war is secondary to the ultimate goal of victory. That the total eradication of the enemy and, possibly, the civilians who may be casualties, is necessary to achieve a total and uncompromising victory.
 
Joe W. wrote:
the total eradication of the enemy and, possibly, the civilians who may be casualties, is necessary to achieve a total and uncompromising victory.
Will you people listen to yourselves? I know that you are merely discussing possibilities, causes and effects, theory of war, etc.

But we are talking about fucking Iraq! Why are we wasting our time in this hell hole? Why is it worth the cost of thousands of American casualities (and over 100,000 Iraqi deaths)? Why is it worth forfeiting America's alleged moral high-ground in the world community?

What's the deal here? Why are we in Iraq? Who the fuck cares about Iraq? And I say that with all due respect.

It's been two years people. Where are the flowers that the Iraqi's were going to throw at the liberating American army?

It's time to end this miserable misadventure.
 
Originally posted by thebullet
Joe W. wrote:

Will you people listen to yourselves? I know that you are merely discussing possibilities, causes and effects, theory of war, etc.

It was brought up, I was responding to it.

But we are talking about fucking Iraq! Why are we wasting our time in this hell hole? Why is it worth the cost of thousands of American casualities (and over 100,000 Iraqi deaths)? Why is it worth forfeiting America's alleged moral high-ground in the world community?

Maybe because it represents the completion of our mission. We tackled the big part, this is the cleanup. Maybe what we're doing, in a moral or visionistic sense, is more important that what the world thinks.
 
thebullet said:
Will you people listen to yourselves? I know that you are merely discussing possibilities, causes and effects, theory of war, etc.

But we are talking about fucking Iraq! Why are we wasting our time in this hell hole? Why is it worth the cost of thousands of American casualities (and over 100,000 Iraqi deaths)? Why is it worth forfeiting America's alleged moral high-ground in the world community?

What's the deal here? Why are we in Iraq? Who the fuck cares about Iraq? And I say that with all due respect.

It's been two years people. Where are the flowers that the Iraqi's were going to throw at the liberating American army?

It's time to end this miserable misadventure.

I agree. You and we should not be in there. However the fac tremains that we are. We went in with our moral superiority complex, told them they weren't doing things right and put ourselves in control. This was the wrong thing to do.

But now what? Do we say, "Sorry we trashed your country, left you without a government, destroyed your infrastructure, set your country up as a haven for terrorists and killed a lot of your people. But we've decided we don't want to be here anymore. Bye!"

We can't just fuck off. That would be even more irresponsible than the interferance in the first place. We are the only things standing between that country and anarchy and our exit would cause thousands more deaths, even more damage and another tinpot dictator, who would murder and oppress thousands more. Then what would our invasion have accomplished? All the deaths, all the destruction and we wouldn't even have given these people self-determination.

No. We decided to go in, now we've got to make sure we do the job properly. Leaving now would be nothing less than inhumane and certainly a greater war crime than any so far committed.

The Earl
 
Joe Wordsworth said:
Maybe what we're doing, in a moral or visionistic sense, is more important that what the world thinks.

To me, that makes this use of napalm all the more worrying, although I am a little surprised at the timing of the announcement. I remember hearing an embedded reporter state that napalm was used in the initial offensive.

War will always be a wretched battle between the practical and the moral. I acknowledge that once one has reached the point of killing people deliberately to accomplish goals, much of what we know as morality begins to shift under our feet. Part of the danger of war is its ability to generate its own moral codes. When one's life is in danger, "what works without getting me killed" becomes a very seductive moral code. While on the one hand I certainly cannot criticize the decisions made by someone whose life is in danger, I do worry that we place people in these positions knowing that gradually, we are accepting that definition of morality - "what works without getting me killed" - in more and more circumstances. It seems to me to be a dangerous corrosive best handled extremely carefully.

Shanglan
 
Joe and Sun Tzu seem to have different ideas. Total annihilation wasn't on Sun's list.
 
cantdog said:
Joe and Sun Tzu seem to have different ideas. Total annihilation wasn't on Sun's list.

Joe wasn't advocating total annihilation as the solution. He was saying that victory comes before morality in terms of war and that the only way to achieve victory might be total annihilation. A small, and maybe pedantic, point, but important IMHO.

It wasn't: Total annihilation is the answer.
It was: There may exist a situation where total annihilation is necessary for victory.

The Earl
 
Joe Wordsworth said:
Some very strong theorists in Philosophy of War (one of my colleagues teaches it) maintain that the manner of war is secondary to the ultimate goal of victory. That the total eradication of the enemy and, possibly, the civilians who may be casualties, is necessary to achieve a total and uncompromising victory.

Victory of what and for what? Must it be 'total and uncompromising'?

"What profit a man if he gains the world and loses his soul?"

The general rule for use of the military is that it is better to keep a nation intact than to destroy it. It is better to keep an army intact than to destroy it, better to keep a division intact than to destroy it, better to keep a battalion intact than to destroy it, better to keep a unit intact than to destroy it.

Therefore those who win every battle are not really skillful - those who render other armies helpless without fighting are best of all.

Sun Tzu The Art of War, Chapter 3, Planning a Siege

Damn, just about everything in that chapter applies to this situation.

But the point stands, what are we fighting for? Is it necessary to use every weapon at our disposal. Is the utter destruction of our opponent worth the cost in lives? And would the bad will such an action would engender be good for the future of the country? Would the country survive a self inflicted wound that deep?
 
Originally posted by rgraham666
Victory of what and for what? Must it be 'total and uncompromising'?

"What profit a man if he gains the world and loses his soul?"

Some very smart men think so... that a victory in warfare that is not total and uncompromising isn't really the completion of the objective. Sort of like "you didn't successfully steal the money from the bank unless you got away with it". If the enemy still exists, the enemy is a threat--regardless what the enemy says.

Past that, a man might profit the world and determine his own destiny rather than be bound to the determination of others.
 
:eek:

'Some very smart men think so'.

Once again proving that intelligence and ethics are two unrelated things.
 
Originally posted by rgraham666
:eek:

'Some very smart men think so'.

Once again proving that intelligence and ethics are two unrelated things.

Oh, definitely. One's a property of consciousness and the other is a science of morality. But I have to grant that without the former, we wouldn't be able to define the latter... which makes me think they're not un-related, perhaps just not directly so.
 
Joe Wordsworth said:
Oh, definitely. One's a property of consciousness and the other is a science of morality. But I have to grant that without the former, we wouldn't be able to define the latter... which makes me think they're not un-related, perhaps just not directly so.

Agreed. Intellect can generate morality, but it can also feed many other things - efficiency, strategy, logistics, music, art, culture, politics, etc. etc. etc. I think RG's point is that they were not equivalent, and I agree. Intellect can assist morality; it can also assist in the accomplishment of the immoral, including the justification thereof.

Shanglan
 
rgraham666 said:
Victory of what and for what? Must it be 'total and uncompromising'?

"What profit a man if he gains the world and loses his soul?"



Damn, just about everything in that chapter applies to this situation.

But the point stands, what are we fighting for? Is it necessary to use every weapon at our disposal. Is the utter destruction of our opponent worth the cost in lives? And would the bad will such an action would engender be good for the future of the country? Would the country survive a self inflicted wound that deep?

Rgraham: This is why I'm proud of the British approach to 'win hearts and minds.' Every 'freedom fighter' killed creates two more in their stead. But take away their popular support by proving that your presence is making their lives better...

As the pamplet that the Black Watch gave out to residents on their arrival in the North - "What have these fighters ever done for you? They bring you death and destruction and take away your sons and fathers to be killed." If the US can prove that they offer a better future than the guerillas, then they will have won this war.

The Earl
 
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