US fighting Russia 'to the last Ukrainian'

[mayfly13]

US fighting Russia 'to the last Ukrainian'​

"Chas Freeman, a retired senior US diplomat, analyzes Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the US role, and the geopolitical fallout. "Everything we are doing, rather than accelerate an end to the fighting and some compromise, seems to be aimed at prolonging the fighting," Freeman says.""

https:/ www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=0vxufUeqnuc&feature=emb_logo

 

[ll74]

I disagree. We're targeting people who have financial interests abroad to bring higher political pressure, which, along with the defeats in the country, would push Putin to accept a peace deal

 

[Rightguide]

Zelensky and his people will decide when the war is over. It won't be up to us. He has the Russians on their heels and should be allowed to take his country back if that is what he wants to do.

 

[pecksniff]

During WWII, Nazi propaganda said the Americans were willing to fight to the last Brit.

 

[LupusDei]

War weather: rocket showers and blowing up tanks:

 

[KeithD]

US fighting Russia 'to the last Ukrainian'​

"Chas Freeman, a retired senior US diplomat, analyzes Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the US role, and the geopolitical fallout. "Everything we are doing, rather than accelerate an end to the fighting and some compromise, seems to be aimed at prolonging the fighting," Freeman says.""

https:/ www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=0vxufUeqnuc&feature=emb_logo

That's true in the sense that if Ukraine wasn't being propped up, the Russian invasion would have pretty quickly succeeded and there probably wouldn't be the deaths and destruction in Ukraine that we've seen. But the prolonging of the resistance shows Russia's weakness and promotes further weakness day by day, so it's a benefit in the long run. Russia is a poor country causing, by it's own action, the draining away of its own resources. The longer this goes, the closer to Russia being completely depleted of war-making capability and economic strength we get. Ukraine is continually being resupplied. The question is who is going to rebuild Ukraine's infrastructure when the smoke clears? Russia, the one responsible for depleting it, won't be able to--with luck, they won't be able to take care of their own needs. Presumably a new Marshall Plan for Ukraine is already in the works and Russia won't have the capability to be a bad boy for several more decades. (And Putin--and thereby Trump--will be off the scene.)

 

[The_Trouvere]

As long as the Ukrainians are willing to fight Russia we should be willing to help them. I have these additional reflections:

U.S. support for the Ukraine resembles our support for Israel, rather than our involvement in the wars in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq.

The Ukraine and Israel have this attitude: we will fight for our independence; we will appreciate your support, but we will fight without it.

During the wars in South Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq we were more interested in supporting the governments of those countries than the peoples' of those countries were. Many people in those countries supported the enemies we were fighting.

 

[LupusDei]

For Ukraine, not to fight is not an option.

Leaked documents to be believed, there's already a plan in motion to displace or liquidate up to half of people of currently Russian occupied city of Kherson (~300,000 residents) that gave up rather easily in the first week of the war.

Certain Russian pundits dreamt about mass public executions in Ukraine well before of the invasion. Those, as well as the ongoing rapes would happen regardless of easily the invasion went.

 

[The_Trouvere]

Putin is foolish to think that a nation establishes its greatness by conquering weaker nations that want to be left alone. A nation establishes its greatness by establishing a well functioning government, a flourishing economy, and a low crime rate. Russia is already the largest country in the world. Russia has everything it needs to dominate the world by example, rather than by military force.

 

[pecksniff]

Certain Russian pundits dreamt about mass public executions in Ukraine well before of the invasion.

Did they say why?

 

[pecksniff]

Putin is foolish to think that a nation establishes its greatness by conquering weaker nations that want to be left alone.

That is how it was done at all times before the 20th Century.

 

[mayfly13]

That's true in the sense that if Ukraine wasn't being propped up, the Russian invasion would have pretty quickly succeeded and there probably wouldn't be the deaths and destruction in Ukraine that we've seen. But the prolonging of the resistance shows Russia's weakness and promotes further weakness day by day, so it's a benefit in the long run. Russia is a poor country causing, by it's own action, the draining away of its own resources. The longer this goes, the closer to Russia being completely depleted of war-making capability and economic strength we get. Ukraine is continually being resupplied. The question is who is going to rebuild Ukraine's infrastructure when the smoke clears? Russia, the one responsible for depleting it, won't be able to--with luck, they won't be able to take care of their own needs. Presumably a new Marshall Plan for Ukraine is already in the works and Russia won't have the capability to be a bad boy for several more decades. (And Putin--and thereby Trump--will be off the scene.)

great analysis.
I guess it makes me clarify a bit my own murky thinking and unease, and I'm sure I'm not the only one..

WE ALL KNOW that Putin is a ruthless man who broke a country's sovereignty, we all know that we created a precedent by not reacing stronger to Georgia's & occupation
we all know that Putin is capable of extending the war to other regions

But the thing is, regardless of who's morally right, what we're witnessing is an ongoing war and terrible human devastation. Lives and infrastructure gutted in Ukraine, famine is now spreading in East Europe due to the sanctions on Russia.
And that's the cognitive dissonance that's making us so unsettled.

 

[KeithD]

Yes, but this isn't the fault of the United States or any other European country. The NATO countries are doing a lot and they are pretty much doing everything they can to avoid widening the conflict. There's only so much responsibility that a a country not directly involved in a conflict should have to shoulder.

 

[pecksniff]

But the thing is, regardless of who's morally right, what we're witnessing is an ongoing war and terrible human devastation. Lives and infrastructure gutted in Ukraine, famine is now spreading in East Europe due to the sanctions on Russia.
And that's the cognitive dissonance that's making us so unsettled.

It's all going to stay that way until Putin gives up. Nothing else can change it.

 

[mayfly13]

And please RightGuide, Ill64, LupusDei, hobbit &
stop jumping in and either accusing us of buying into Russian propaganda
or explaining to us in fancy lingo, things that EVERYBODY knows and agrees with, (that Russia is imperialistic, and Putin a osychopath).

Neither lack of understanding, nor pro-Putinism are the root cause of our unease.

 

[pecksniff]

And please RightGuide, Ill64, LupusDei, hobbit &
stop jumping in and either accusing us of buying into Russian propaganda
or explaining to us in fancy lingo, things that EVERYBODY knows and agrees with, (that Russia is imperialistic, and Putin a osychopath).

Neither lack of understanding, nor pro-Putinism are the root cause of our unease.

What is, then? You have nothing whatsoever to fear from the U.S. or NATO or the EU. Only from Russia.

 

[mayfly13]

Yes, but this isn't the fault of the United States or any other European country. The NATO countries are doing a lot and they are pretty much doing everything they can to avoid widening the conflict. There's only so much responsibility that a a country not directly involved in a conflict should have to shoulder.

they ARE well-intended and trying to help now.

But the economic sanctions don't seem to stop Putin's war mongering At All, just making it more difficult for him and delaying his advancement.
And what massmedia is claiming (that we won cause look Putin is no longer advancing deeper in Ukraine) is bullshit. Putin never intended to attack those territories, he never bombed the agricultural infrastructure cause Russians needs grain and food). Half of what he planned: to takeover the ports, he's slowly achieving.

Meanwhile, Eastern Europe is risking famine as a fallout of the economic sanctions on Russia.

And US/Zelenski claim that America alwaysmade it clear that Ukraine will never get into NATO...
What a load of crock... America always gave hopes to Ukraine, (even if they believed it or not), others even believe that Ukraine was in fact a de facto member of NATO.

 

[KeithD]

Putin never intended to attack those territories,

Here's some of your own bullshit. You can't know what Putin intended. It's pretty obvious he didn't intend to be the butt of jokes about intentions and capability that he now is.

 

[The_Trouvere]

That is how it was done at all times before the 20th Century.

Beginning with World War I the winners of wars have been worse off after winning, than before the wars began.

 

[mayfly13]

Here's some of your own bullshit. You can't know what Putin intended. It's pretty obvious he didn't intend to be the butt of jokes about intentions and capability that he now is.

A few American military analysts & former generals who appeared on talk shows claimed that.

They said that the way Russians are spread in Ukraine makes total sense.
Conquer ports to the Azov and Black Sea, to both bolster Russia's defense and to weaken Western Ukraine by cutting off that that source of trade and sustenance
don't touch agricultural areas now that spring is in bloom, Russians need wheat.

Of course they agreed with you that Russians implemented that plan in an incompetent manner,
but that the plan is good.

 

[mayfly13]

Beginning with World War I the winners of wars have been worse off after winning, than before the wars began.

Great! post.
I suck at History so I can't debate whether you're right or wrong, but my neurons are starting to fire.
A lot of the talk shows out there, while morally on the right side, are stupid afk..


Chas Freeman (or some general I listened too, I'm mixing them up)
also claimed that after ww1, the other powers did a huge mistake by ostracizing Germany from the cool kids table, that being one of the several reasons that Germany started ww2.

That we need to learn from that
and listen to Macron and not to Biden

 

[pecksniff]

don't touch agricultural areas now that spring is in bloom, Russians need wheat.

But after all this, there's no chance Ukraine will sell them any so long as Putin rules.

 

[The_Trouvere]

Great! post.
I suck at History so I can't debate whether you're right or wrong, but my neurons are starting to fire.
A lot of the talk shows out there, while morally on the right side, are stupid afk..


Chas Freeman (or some general I listened too, I'm mixing them up)
also claimed that after ww1, the other powers did a huge mistake by ostracizing Germany from the cool kids table, that being one of the several reasons that Germany started ww2.

That we need to learn from that
and listen to Macron and not to Biden

I wanted to give you a like for this comment until I read the last sentence.

The United States actually benefited economically from the two world wars. For most of the countries that participated in World War I the war was tragically futile.

Great Britain and the Soviet Union were worse off after defeating Nazi Germany. That does not mean they should not have fought. They would have been still worse of if the Nazis had won.

 

[pecksniff]

That we need to learn from that
and listen to Macron and not to Biden

What does Macron say?

 

[mayfly13]

I wanted to give you a like for this comment instead I read the last sentence.

I was referring to Macron's latest comment,
He subtly told off Biden for his clumsy John Wayne rhetoric. Saying that we need to leave our feelings aside and use diplomatic lingo, if we want to negotiate a peace deal.

Otherwise, I understand that Macron's other interventions were useless, he's just trying to get re-elected.