Unpaid Internships

[bg23]

This graphic says it all

Nobody but non profits should be allowed to have unpaid interns

 

[evesdream]

The Huffington Post auction has got to be a joke.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

This graphic says it all

Nobody but non profits should be allowed to have unpaid interns

Love me some Matt Bors, even when I sometimes disagree with him. He's dead on with this one, though.

The Huffington Post auction has got to be a joke.

I wish it were. HuffPo is...problematic. And it's a fucking shame because they have a voice and a solid platform through social media longevity that start-ups can't compete with.

 

[Laurel]

HuffPo got sold to spammers long ago. It's amazing to me how much cred they still retain even though the new ownership are a brutal keyword-spamming machine.

I honestly thank that there would be sighs of relief on both sides of the fence should unpaid internships become a thing of the past. They seem to be incredibly time- and management-intensive for the company, with a high turnover and potential for bad crap to happen. I've heard horror stories from a person I know who deals with unpaid interns, not all of which are saintly hardworking intelligent people.

 

[bg23]

HuffPo got sold to spammers long ago. It's amazing to me how much cred they still retain even though the new ownership are a brutal keyword-spamming machine.

I honestly thank that there would be sighs of relief on both sides of the fence should unpaid internships become a thing of the past. They seem to be incredibly time- and management-intensive for the company, with a high turnover and potential for bad crap to happen. I've heard horror stories from a person I know who deals with unpaid interns, not all of which are saintly hardworking intelligent people.

definitely. when all you've got are unpaid interns you don't attract the best, and you can end up with some serious duds who don't really give a fuck because, well, it's not like they're getting paid.

i did an unpaid internship for a non profit a while back and it was rewarding for me because i felt invested in the cause of the non-profit, but even then it was a major struggle for me because of the time commitment. i was giving up paid employment to do it. i can't imagine how difficult it must be to get motivated to do it for a company you hate while getting paid fuck-all.

It's pure exploitation. Whoever the first guy was who thought unpaid internships were a good idea needs to be punched in the crotch.

 

[Sasha_Lyazzat]

They chose for to do internship. They should get nothing.

 

[evesdream]

Remember when temping was a big thing? There was a great zine in the 90s called Temp Slave full of the rage and horrors experienced by people who felt trapped working in temp hell. The word "sabotage" appeared pretty frequently in those tales (as did the words "theft" and "fuck them").

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Its the way to go if you want something relevant on your resume.

Back in 1976 I went to the local Democrat headquarters and volunteered to handle the worst precincts in the county. So they gave me the solid red GOP strongholds. I made a difference, and I met and helped plenty of newbie candidates who won their races. I didn't earn a dime. Shit, John Glenn and me, alone, filled a parking lot with folding chairs. I had a nice long chat with him working beside him. I liked him.

People cant exploit you if you serve your agenda. So make your agenda an opportunity for strangers to see your stuff.

 

[RobDownSouth]

My company recently posted an advertisement for two paid entry-level IT internships. 90-day projects, $14 per hour. I get to look at the resumes that made it past our admin screener.

There are a LOT of gun-shy people out there. One guy asked me for an employment contract. Not gonna happen. dude. He said he just wanted to make sure he was going to get paid.

The best one, though, was I got a call about a guy I wasn't quite sure about (good resume, wasn't sure of his work ethic)... the guy's FATHER calls me up to make sure our company was "legit".

Told him we only dealt with principals, not agencies or parents.

 

[Laurel]

Heard that story once or a dozen times before.

Millennials. And their helicopter parents.

 

[bg23]

Its the way to go if you want something relevant on your resume.

Back in 1976 I went to the local Democrat headquarters and volunteered to handle the worst precincts in the county. So they gave me the solid red GOP strongholds. I made a difference, and I met and helped plenty of newbie candidates who won their races. I didn't earn a dime. Shit, John Glenn and me, alone, filled a parking lot with folding chairs. I had a nice long chat with him working beside him. I liked him.

People cant exploit you if you serve your agenda. So make your agenda an opportunity for strangers to see your stuff.

the problem is, back in the day when unpaid internships weren't so common, your willingness to work unpaid was what set you apart from the others. you went to a company applied for a job, they turn you away because they don't need you (because without unpaid interns they actually employed real employees to do the job so there wasn't that much extra work) -- you offer to work for free, because you want the experience so much that it's worth it. that drive is what set you apart from other graduates

these days working for free is simply expected. if you -don't- work for free you end up putting yourself at a disadvantage. the problem with that is, how do you work for free somewhere that is relevant to your career and still feed yourself and make rent?

i'm not disagreeing that internships benefit the intern, they do, greatly - getting work experience is great. but you know what else gives work experience? jobs. do companies hire managers and say, "this is great work experience, you'l make a lot of contacts and might eventually become a CEO!" and expect that's a good substitute for pay? the benefit companies now get from unpaid interns far exceeds that which it should be. those tasks that interns are performing should actually be performed by actual, paid employees. that'd reduce unemployment. interns are there to help, not to fulfil the role of full time employees minus the pay. and if they are to fulfil that role, then at least give them minimum wage -- it's still less than what you'd pay somebody you had to hire for the role.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

If anyone wants to learn how to grow flowers and veggies God is jealous of, I aint paying them for my tutorials.

 

[bg23]

If anyone wants to learn how to grow flowers and veggies God is jealous of, I aint paying them for my tutorials.

That's totally fine because you're not currently hiring anyone else to help you grow your veggies, right? You're doing fine on your own as a 1 man operation. So for a student to come to you and ask to learn your trade, well they don't have anything to offer you other than their help (which you don't really need) but you can take that in return for your allowing them the experience.

If however you had a couple of dudes helping you run your garden and you were paying them both 10 bucks an hour to dig dirt and plant things and water them (I don't know what else is involved in gardening), and you decided to fire them both and pick up a couple of interns - who then would do the same thing, and you didn't pay them...well that'd be pretty sucky. Because obviously you -did- need them, and they -can- offer you something.

You've made 2 people unemployed and you're also forcing two other shmucks to go hungry. I mean, at least give them 5 bucks an hour or whatever, you're still saving 50% in labor costs.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

the problem is, back in the day when unpaid internships weren't so common, your willingness to work unpaid was what set you apart from the others. you went to a company applied for a job, they turn you away because they don't need you (because without unpaid interns they actually employed real employees to do the job so there wasn't that much extra work) -- you offer to work for free, because you want the experience so much that it's worth it. that drive is what set you apart from other graduates

these days working for free is simply expected. if you -don't- work for free you end up putting yourself at a disadvantage. the problem with that is, how do you work for free somewhere that is relevant to your career and still feed yourself and make rent?

i'm not disagreeing that internships benefit the intern, they do, greatly - getting work experience is great. but you know what else gives work experience? jobs. do companies hire managers and say, "this is great work experience, you'l make a lot of contacts and might eventually become a CEO!" and expect that's a good substitute for pay? the benefit companies now get from unpaid interns far exceeds that which it should be. those tasks that interns are performing should actually be performed by actual, paid employees. that'd reduce unemployment. interns are there to help, not to fulfil the role of full time employees minus the pay. and if they are to fulfil that role, then at least give them minimum wage -- it's still less than what you'd pay somebody you had to hire for the role.

I get it.

I don't endorse most volunteer work and unpaid internships, tho unpaid internships were what I did to graduate grad school. I did 3 of them. One for 16 weeks, and two 8 week internships. I drove 100 miles to sell myself to a PhD who operated a rape-crisis center in Fort Lonesome County. It allowed the resident therapist there to actually get laid without the pager interrupting the fun. I did the night-time stuff. I tried to work at Tampa Aids Network but they only wanted fag hags to hold hands.

The local liberal rag uses unpaid interns almost exclusively, so I understand how assholes abuse interns.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Its the way to go if you want something relevant on your resume.

Back in 1976 I went to the local Democrat headquarters and volunteered to handle the worst precincts in the county. So they gave me the solid red GOP strongholds. I made a difference, and I met and helped plenty of newbie candidates who won their races. I didn't earn a dime. Shit, John Glenn and me, alone, filled a parking lot with folding chairs. I had a nice long chat with him working beside him. I liked him.

People cant exploit you if you serve your agenda. So make your agenda an opportunity for strangers to see your stuff.

Political campaigns are by nature transitory organizations, and have traditionally relied upon motivated volunteers (up until Citizens United, anyway). There's a big difference between political campaigns and ongoing for-profit corporations, though I wouldn't expect you to acknowledge that.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

That's totally fine because you're not currently hiring anyone else to help you grow your veggies, right? You're doing fine on your own as a 1 man operation. So for a student to come to you and ask to learn your trade, well they don't have anything to offer you other than their help (which you don't really need) but you can take that in return for your allowing them the experience.

If however you had a couple of dudes helping you run your garden and you were paying them both 10 bucks an hour to dig dirt and plant things and water them (I don't know what else is involved in gardening), and you decided to fire them both and pick up a couple of interns - who then would do the same thing, and you didn't pay them...well that'd be pretty sucky. Because obviously you -did- need them, and they -can- offer you something.

You've made 2 people unemployed and you're also forcing two other shmucks to go hungry. I mean, at least give them 5 bucks an hour or whatever, you're still saving 50% in labor costs.

I prefer to think of it as learning miracles and marvels.

Like I said, I get the abuse part. But the chance to learn from a master who makes God pout, its priceless.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Political campaigns are by nature transitory organizations, and have traditionally relied upon motivated volunteers (up until Citizens United, anyway). There's a big difference between political campaigns and ongoing for-profit corporations, though I wouldn't expect you to acknowledge that.

I expect you to try and sell the idea that all babies have two heads. Every argument you make starts with the proposition ALL BABIES HAVE TWO HEADS AND 6 FINGERS.

 

[bg23]

I get it.

I don't endorse most volunteer work and unpaid internships, tho unpaid internships were what I did to graduate grad school. I did 3 of them. One for 16 weeks, and two 8 week internships. I drove 100 miles to sell myself to a PhD who operated a rape-crisis center in Fort Lonesome County. It allowed the resident therapist there to actually get laid without the pager interrupting the fun. I did the night-time stuff. I tried to work at Tampa Aids Network but they only wanted fag hags to hold hands.

The local liberal rag uses unpaid interns almost exclusively, so I understand how assholes abuse interns.

That's pretty intense. And I can imagine the competition for internships in medicine is fierce. I have a lot of respect for people who will do the unpaid internships that are hard, that are rough and who fight tooth and nail for the opportunity to have those experiences. The people who obtain positions out of places that didn't even advertise for one.

I agree and think unpaid interns are a huge huge huge help to people who can't otherwise afford to have extra help (especially community service type organisations) and the benefit to the interns in the experience they gain is massive. Non profits can't really pay their interns (although even at the non profit I worked at, I still got 20 bucks each 8 hr day to cover my expenses). Choosing to do volunteer work for good causes is in and of itself a reward.

But no excuse for huge major corporations and rappers like P-diddy to claim they "can't afford" to pay for those extra employees they obviously require.

 

[bg23]

I prefer to think of it as learning miracles and marvels.

Like I said, I get the abuse part. But the chance to learn from a master who makes God pout, its priceless.

Yeah, I see what you mean too, I think of great writers, great craftsmen, great doctors, artists, chefs or lawyers -- these are the people that students would kill to learn from, and the privilege in and of itself you could say is worth the couple bucks you'd get paid instead.


For the most part most internships aren't of that nature though which is why I think there's so much widespread potential for abuse. And I get that you get it.

 

[RobDownSouth]

I expect you to try and sell the idea that all babies have two heads. Every argument you make starts with the proposition ALL BABIES HAVE TWO HEADS AND 6 FINGERS.

Great rebuttal, Wilford. You must be the smartest guy in your trailer park.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Great rebuttal, Wilford. You must be the smartest guy in your trailer park.

I don't like to brag, but its true.

 

[oggbashan]

In the UK, work experience is a common part of the last year or two at school.

It is usually a 2 week placement and the student is shown what the company does, what jobs employees do, and how they could fit in to the organisation. They are not expected to be producing anything of value to the company. They might produce test pieces, do simulated office tasks etc.

Many companies do this as part of their public relations brief. When I was employed by a large company, my division used to take about 50 16 to 18 year-olds for a 2 week work experience every year. Most of their first day was briefing about safety precautions. We had lecture suites for them and brought employees to them to demonstrate what we did and let them practice on simulated tasks. When they went out into the real workplace they were escorted one on one.

A very few eventually applied for apprenticeships within the company. During an apprenticeship - then - their task was to learn the skills, gain the expertise, pass examinations and get qualifications that would make them effective employees WHEN they had satisfactorily completed the apprenticeship. We paid them a junior rate, more than the minimum wage, but they did not do real work except as part of their learning process.

Unpaid internships are a different matter. If they are to be of benefit to the company and the intern, there should be a balance between gaining experience and the company assessing potential in the intern.

Recently in the UK a woman won a case against a company because they were treating her unpaid internship as just another employee, doing real work as if she were a paid recruit. She claimed the minimum hourly wage but the settlement was for more than that. The court agreed that she had been unfairly exploited. The company was considered a poor example of internship management.

 

[firefighter12]

Gee...unpaid internships.

Join your local volunteer fire department if you want FREE training and don't mind OJT on dealing with cardiac arrests, delivering 'unexpected' babies, prying drunk aholes out of their vehicles, occasionally actually putting out a fire or two.

IF you like it, can handle the 0300 wake-ups to go treat "apparent frostbite" during a blizzard, nearly getting run over by an idiot who sees no reason to slow down while driving through an emergency scene....go apply at the 'big city' fire department, the one where they pay you to do what you have been doing for free.

Oh, you'll have to go on a waiting list, one that often has no openings for 12-36 months. Keep in mind that there are a whole bunch of others who have applied, but few who have bothered to seek out that "unpaid internship" you did.

In some, certainly not all, cases, when your application comes up for review by the powers that be who actually do the hiring, your "unpaid internship" WILL get you at least an interview and if you get that, your chances of being hired are pretty damned good.

I took that 'unpaid internship" years ago and went through what I have related above. I am a firefighter and damned proud of what I have learned and what I have accomplished because it was what I WANTED to do.

Point I am trying to make is that with ANY "unpaid internship" nobody holds a gun to your head or threatens to drown a litter of kittens if you don't take the job (and all the inherent abuse, etc. that goes with it). I hope that the day of the 'free lunch' is over and that people need both an aptitude and a desire to get a well-paying job in an ever-increasing competitive job market. Employers can afford to take only the 'best and brightest'. so, IF it is something you truly want to do in life, just DO it....otherwise you can always get a paying job at your local fast food resturant, no experience required.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Gee...unpaid internships.

Join your local volunteer fire department if you want FREE training and don't mind OJT on dealing with cardiac arrests, delivering 'unexpected' babies, prying drunk aholes out of their vehicles, occasionally actually putting out a fire or two.

IF you like it, can handle the 0300 wake-ups to go treat "apparent frostbite" during a blizzard, nearly getting run over by an idiot who sees no reason to slow down while driving through an emergency scene....go apply at the 'big city' fire department, the one where they pay you to do what you have been doing for free.

Oh, you'll have to go on a waiting list, one that often has no openings for 12-36 months. Keep in mind that there are a whole bunch of others who have applied, but few who have bothered to seek out that "unpaid internship" you did.

In some, certainly not all, cases, when your application comes up for review by the powers that be who actually do the hiring, your "unpaid internship" WILL get you at least an interview and if you get that, your chances of being hired are pretty damned good.

I took that 'unpaid internship" years ago and went through what I have related above. I am a firefighter and damned proud of what I have learned and what I have accomplished because it was what I WANTED to do.

Point I am trying to make is that with ANY "unpaid internship" nobody holds a gun to your head or threatens to drown a litter of kittens if you don't take the job (and all the inherent abuse, etc. that goes with it). I hope that the day of the 'free lunch' is over and that people need both an aptitude and a desire to get a well-paying job in an ever-increasing competitive job market. Employers can afford to take only the 'best and brightest'. so, IF it is something you truly want to do in life, just DO it....otherwise you can always get a paying job at your local fast food resturant, no experience required.

Amen Brutha

 

[renard_ruse]

If both parties (business and intern) are agreeing to the arangement, its their choice.

Its one way for students and others to gain experience in their desired field.