Universal Declaration of Human Rights

[REDWAVE]

Former imperialists

As we all know, the UK was once the world's leading imperialist power (in the nineteenth century), before being supplanted by the US. It is much less powerful today, although hardly inconsequential since it has nuclear weapons. Even today, it has joined in the U.S. aggression against Afghanistan, and is currently gearing up to assist in the U.S. aggression against Iraq. I'd call it an imperialist nation still.

France was also once a leading imperialist power, and still retains a few vestiges of empire here and there. Today, interimperialist rivalries are heating up between the U.S. and the E.U. (which p p man is a cheerleader for), which is dominated by the German-French alliance.

Italy and Turkey are mainly pawns of U.S. imperialism.

 

[Freya]

... and thus began WWIII.

Ok. We'll start fighting and then you guys can come along in 5 years or so. Hey wait! I have a strong feeling of deja vu here!


PC - you gotta work with what you've got. I was in a hurry.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

A tiny dictionary and dusty western civilization textbook.

 

[REDWAVE]

Last resort of the intellectually bankrupt

When DCL realizes he's losing the serious debate, he falls back on his "clever" one liners.

 

[REDWAVE]

I'm a BIG Trent fan

Silvio Berlusconi, the richest man in Italy and currently its Prime Minister, actually made the public statement: "Whatever the U.S. is for, I'm for! Even before I know what it is." Even Blair doesn't reach such an exalted level of todayism.

Turkey is essentially an enormous U.S. military base in the Middle East-- somewhat like Israel.

Anyway, I'd love to continue this banter, but Trent Lott is about to make his TV appearance, trying to save his hide. Now there's a man who truly honors human rights and equality for all!

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

When DCL realizes he's losing the serious debate, he falls back on his "clever" one liners.

Clever one liners are what unclever one note Jonnies get. You want a debate, stop pampleteering, and debate. I have given you long, detailed answers plenty of times. Your M.O. is to ignore the arguments and corrected knowledge you've been given, and move onto the next thing on your agenda laundry list, "Oh yeah? Well what about Vietnam? Blah-blah."

For example, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is not International Law, but you say it is because the phrase International Law allows you to somehow suggest that the U.S. is behaving outside the law, though you don't explain exactly how, and you further suggest that "acting outside the law" leads right to the defintion of "imperialism". You use words like International Law the same way the old cigarette commericals used to use the word doctor, to somehow imply cedibility. Forget the fact that your entire arugment is falliable because the document isn't International Law, but a guideline. There's a huge difference there, and it's exactly the kind of difference you routinely gloss over on your way to whining about people who don't debate you.

Before we can debate a nation's position on Universal Declaration of Human Rights we would have to first take three days correcting your dictionary and getting you to focus on conclusions that actually lead from facts, and not your hysteria. Just how many times should we take you seriously until we realize that you aren't actually interested in dialogue, but in soapboxing?

More snappy one liners to follow.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Last resort of the politically childish

When REDWAVE realizes people know more about the facts than he does, he falls back on pretending he didn't hear.

 

[teddybear4play]

Our just outright ignorance.

By that I mean that he practices in the ignoring of people, but the other way works, too.

TB4p

 

[Harbinger]

Re: Torture and arbitrary arrest

Now hold on a second there. I think REDWAVE raises some important questions.

Also worth special notice are Article 5 and Article 9. Article 5 says: "No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."

Clarification, please. Do you think by "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment" we can infer that means working for McDonald's? It's all those things, from what I can tell. They have restaurants all over the world, clearly an international situation

 

[Rodney King]

Re: Torture and arbitrary arrest

Also worth special notice are Article 5 and Article 9. Article 5 says: "No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment." Article 9 provides: "No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile."

Both articles have been grossly violated by the Bush regime, by its detention of thousands without charges, and by its inhumane treatment of "enemy combatants" at Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere.

I have no problem turning them loose as long as you allow the enemy combatants to stay at your place red. Of course you have to do so at your own risk!!! Think you can handle that?

Of course, you have me on ignore so you will never read this. Let alone respond!!!

What a fucking idiot you are!!!

 

[Harbinger]

REDWAVE, you might want to check this out.
The Philosophy of Liberty

You might not agree, but it might help you understand the reasons why some people disagree with what you are advocating.

 

[Rodney King]

REDWAVE, you might want to check this out.
The Philosophy of Liberty

You might not agree, but it might help you understand the reasons why some people disagree with what you are advocating.

You do realize that you have asked Red to actually read something of substance and think for himself don't you. He will totally ignore your post, but if he does respond it will only be in a negative manner.

REd is just a shit stirrer that posts whatever drivel he thinks will get a response. He never discusses anything with intelligence and when confronted with facts and logic, he ignores your post and behaves as DCL described above. He pretends he didn't see it!

REd is a frustrated person. Never has a happy moment. He's just whiling away the rest of his life on this earth commiserating in misery by refusing to take control of his life and enjoying what time he has left....

He would much rather blame all of his problems on everyone else and be a victim. Guess what red? No one is buying it. And no one is going to take responsibility for you. you will have to take responsibility for yourself.

 

[Harbinger]

I hope you're wrong. I really want to know what he thinks about McDonald's.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

That flash piece is absolutely great, Harbinger. It raised about 10 questions in my mind as it was going along, but I haven't seen the philosophy of libertarianism ever so beautifully and effectively illustrated with a few words and images.

I'm not really a libertarian per se, but that animation is truly cool. Everybody in the world ought to check it out for a nice distillation of the basics of libertarianism.

 

[Harbinger]

I'm glad you liked it. I've been pushing it around the board a bit, just to get people to re-examine some of their assumptions. I think it makes a great starting point for taking a look at where our country is today. It should be exported to the rest of the world. A lot of people are living far removed from such ideals. It's quite revolutionary, actually.

 

[JazzManJim]

I'm glad you liked it. I've been pushing it around the board a bit, just to get people to re-examine some of their assumptions. I think it makes a great starting point for taking a look at where our country is today. It should be exported to the rest of the world. A lot of people are living far removed from such ideals. It's quite revolutionary, actually.

I've always dug the way your brains works, Harb.

I do have a question, loosely related to the topic. I've heard the words "international law" bandied about not only here, but in a lot of places. One thing troubles me, though. How can an international law actually binding in any way without both a codified set of consequences for breaching that law nor an effective way of enforcing the law?

 

[REDWAVE]

Harbinger

I have checked out that "Philosophy of Liberty" page. It does have some really cool animation.

 

[REDWAVE]

McDonald's

I agree McDonald's treats its workers very shabbily, but that wasn't exactly what I had in mind there. I was thinking more of how the "detainees" at Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo Bay are treated, and how John Walker Lindh was tortured while in U.S. military custody.

 

[REDWAVE]

The UDHR is international law

The UDHR is international law binding on the U.S.-- at least in theory. The practical problem is how to enforce it on "the world's only superpower."

It should be kept in mind the UDHR is not something written by Marx or Lenin. It was agreed upon by the world's nations, without a single "no" vote. At the time it was adopted (1948), there were 58 nations in the U.N. Of them, 48 voted for the UDHR. Eight nations abstained: the Soviet bloc nations, South Africa, and Saudi Arabia. Two nations were absent.

The U.S. has signed and ratified the "International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights," making it binding on the U.S. as a treaty.

 

[SINthysist]

You know RED, the local hospital cannot hire enough aides because McDonalds, Pizza Hut, and Sonic all pay better. At least bash the correct capitalist pigs...

 

[Harbinger]

Re: McDonald's

I agree McDonald's treats its workers very shabbily, but that wasn't exactly what I had in mind there. I was thinking more of how the "detainees" at Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo Bay are treated, and how John Walker Lindh was tortured while in U.S. military custody.

The Selective Conscience By Bill Keller

An excerpt:

"In the theater of totalitarianism, Saddam Hussein's Iraq is Grand Guignol. The testimony of victims who have lived to talk is replete with accounts of prisoners hung by the arms until their muscles rip, raw voltage applied to genitalia, suspects slowly dipped in vats of acid. When the jailers tire of tormenting the body they go after the soul. They will bring in a wife or daughter and rape her again and again before your eyes. They will bring in your little girl and methodically crush the bones in her feet. They will behead a mother in front of her children. And let us not forget the thousands of Iraqis gassed like insects for the crime of being Kurds, or the countless victims who have simply vanished forever."

Oh, you mean torture like that?

So even though the wolves are ripping the flocks to shreds, REDWAVE is in the kitchen, busy setting mousetraps, hoping to keep the mice out of the saltines. Good sense of priorities.

 

[perks]

apples and oranges



oh yeah, and

celery *stalk*

 

[Guest]

 

[Unclebill]

Re: Re: McDonald's

Originally posted by Harbinger
The Selective Conscience By Bill Keller

An excerpt:

"In the theater of totalitarianism, Saddam Hussein's Iraq is Grand Guignol. The testimony of victims who have lived to talk is replete with accounts of prisoners hung by the arms until their muscles rip, raw voltage applied to genitalia, suspects slowly dipped in vats of acid. When the jailers tire of tormenting the body they go after the soul. They will bring in a wife or daughter and rape her again and again before your eyes. They will bring in your little girl and methodically crush the bones in her feet. They will behead a mother in front of her children. And let us not forget the thousands of Iraqis gassed like insects for the crime of being Kurds, or the countless victims who have simply vanished forever."

Oh, you mean torture like that?

So even though the wolves are ripping the flocks to shreds, REDWAVE is in the kitchen, busy setting mousetraps, hoping to keep the mice out of the saltines. Good sense of priorities.

C'mon, Harb, give the man some slack and stop trashing his hero and idol. You're wasting time on petty things like this when he's addressing the really serious issues like working conditions at Mickey D's! Boy, are your priorities fucked up! That'll be a ten minute timeout for you!

 

[A Desert Rose]

REDDDDDDWAVE-------

You know, if you need a job (as I do) and you need it bad enough, you do what you have to do.

Have you ever worked for McDonalds? Who told you that they treat their employees so badly? I know lots of teenagers and seniors who are quite happy to be employed there.