United Socialist States of America ??

[colddiesel]

It appears that perhaps the name of the country should be changed to The United Socialist States of America. The Farm Bill has been passed by Congress, vetoed by Bush then passed by Congress again.

The money allocated is some $317 Billion. In excess of 80% of that money goes to Agribusinesses who without their subsidies would be earning in excess of $200,000 each. This bill vastly exceeds the notorious CAP(Common Agricultural Policy) of the EU and is also proportionately greater than the equally notorious subsidies applicable in Japan. These agricultural subsidies preclude any possibility of many 3rd world countries being able to export anything to the first world

It is the Worlds greatest payoff to a particular interest group and was originally established in the 30's to support genuinely poor small farmers . A classic Keynsian solution. Even today aid and special programmes are added to the farm Bill to legitimise this massive rip off of American Taxpayers. The fact is that much of the aid would not be required at all if markets were not so massively skewed by this political intervention.

With this bill in place it is evident that socialism is alive and well in the USA albeit that you taxpayers are in reality cheerfully handing over vast sums of your taxes to the rich. How do you feel about being the patsies who support big Agribusiness??

 

[impressive]

How do you feel about being the patsies who support big Agribusiness??

Not nearly as badly as I feel about being a patsy who's supporting the war in Iraq. At least there's a tangible product from agribusiness... that I can eat.

 

[where]

I'm confused. How is supporting huge agribusinesses socialist? Quite the opposite I would think.

 

[Liar]

I'm confused. How is supporting huge agribusinesses socialist? Quite the opposite I would think.

Quite so. This is corporatism. Something true socialists and true capitalists alike loathe (for entirely different reasons).

I'm not either or, so I just frown upon it a bit.

 

[rgraham666]

I'm with Red and Liar. I don't see what this has to do with socialism at all. It simply strikes me as 'business as usual' in the U.S.

Oh wait. Now I realize. It's a phenomena I've seen before. There are people who use the labels 'government', 'socialism', 'communism' and 'evil' interchangeably. They are equivalent terms to these people. Never understood it myself.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Farm subsidies are obstacles to innovation and progress and efficiency.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Not nearly as badly as I feel about being a patsy who's supporting the war in Iraq. At least there's a tangible product from agribusiness... that I can eat.

Nevermind that it's slowly killing you.

This is probably the only veto of Bush's I've ever supported.

 

[impressive]

Nevermind that it's slowly killing you.

As opposed to quickly killing others?


I'm not a fan of overprocessed, over-nuked food either. I just don't object as vehemently... and I can "vote" with my wallet. I don't have that choice re war.

 

[Carnevil9]

The US is socialist, to a degree. Social Security is a prime example, as is Medicare and government-mandated unemployment insurance. Add in farm subsidies, government sponsored schools (which you pay for even if you don't use), and the Fed tampering with the interest rates, and old Uncle John Maynard is dancing a jig in his grave. When HilaryCare rolls out over the next few years, you can say a final goodbye to Keynes and hello to Uncle Karl.......Carney

 

[R. Richard]

As usual, Congress is taking care of their powerful constituents.

"You vote for me and I'll see you get enough money to hire more people and grow more crops."

"Uh, Senator, what about the people who have to come up with more money to buy the food that the farmers produce?"

"Well, hell, we'll give 'em a little more money, at least enough to pay for the tax increase."

 

[Pure]

colddiesel,

300 billion to be transferred from taxpayers to agribusiness.

yep, sounds like socialism to me!

what an idiotic posting!

the plan is called state supported capitalism; favored by Democrats and Republicans alike.

---

here's another plot you might want to post: atheist commies plan to remove "in god we trust" from coins and substitute "karl marx rules!"

 

[colddiesel]

A fuckwit's Answer ??

300 billion to be transferred from taxpayers to agribusiness.

yep, sounds like socialism to me!

what an idiotic posting!

the plan is called state supported capitalism; favored by Democrats and Republicans alike.

---

here's another plot you might want to post: atheist commies plan to remove "in god we trust" from coins and substitute "karl marx rules!"

My goodness, looks as though you got out of the bed on the wrong side this morning!

The post is certainly exaggerated but not idiotic. I have obviously failed in my attempt to stir what are apparently the fading embers of your intellect.

Firstly the Farm Bills had their origins in Socialist and Keynsian economics . They were an attempt to support through government intervention the incomes of what were dirt poor farmers in the 1930's. Interestingly they are still justified by modern politicians in similar terms. Much of the coverage and political support for the bill is still today expressed in socialist terms of for example 'support for african american farmers,' 'support for beet growers' 'support for various aid projects' Both Republicans and Democrats use classic socialist argument to support what you call 'state supported capitalism' and others refer to as state corporatism.

What is undoubtably true is that the original intent of the farm bill has become completely perverted and has assumed gargantuan proportions. It has predominently become a means of removing vast sums from the taxpayer and mainly making payments to wealthy agri-business. The fundamental question is, are you happy with the situation that the farm bill has effectively become a gigantic pork barrel paid for by you as a taxpayer?

Finally I do not concede that the varieties of socialism you chose to recognise are the only ones. I believe having read a number of your posts that you generally accept that social democracy and communism are forms of socialism. However, a third brand of socialism systematically redistributed taxes from the masses of the population to big government and big business. You describe this as 'State supported Capitalism'. 70 years ago before, Fascism gave it a bad name this economic model was called National Socialism.

Does the fact that both sides of American Politics support the 2008 Farm Bill make it a good thing?

GWB in almost all other respects is an execrably bad president, however I think his veto of this bill was totally correct. I invite you to record your agreement with the president on this point . Go on it won't hurt! The alternative of course is to support big agribusiness.


Your final comment on Marx, Coinage, Atheism, God makes assumptions about my politics which are totally wrong but I'm going to be kind and not embarass you further over such a trivial error.

 

[DeeZire]

I think the current farm bill has more to do with reelection prospects than it has to do with ideology. It's an example of democracy subverted by capitalism - legislation is sold to the highest bidder, without regard for the good of the country. All those free-marketers should be proud.

 

[Liar]

The US is socialist, to a degree.

Duh. Show me a society that isn't, to a degree.

 

[Carnevil9]

Duh. Show me a society that isn't, to a degree.

I wish I could. I don't believe there are any left.

 

[Liar]

I wish I could. I don't believe there are any left.

"Left"? There's never been any, ol' bean.

 

[rgraham666]

Then give us an historical example, evil.

 

[Carnevil9]

"Left"? There's never been any, ol' bean.

"Never"? That's an awfully long time span to cover with a blanket statement.

Try the US in its early days, or Australia. Or medieval Iceland. Here is some background:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho_capitalism#Historical_precedents_for_anarcho-capitalism

And here is another long list of successful societies with no government meddling:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anarchist_communities

 

[oggbashan]

This week the UK tried to stop the EU's Common Agriculture subsidies.

The bill has reduced, is reducing, but is unlikely to cease.

At least the UK tried.

Og

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Looking into my crystal ball I see something else.

In the 50s states like Connecticut hired girls from the South to harvest tobacco. The girls picked the crops and lived in dorms. Then they went home.

I think America is poised to do the same with skilled foreign workers. Hospitals will transport 100s of foreign nurses and such to 'train' here and return to India when their visas expire. Restaurants already do this with Chinese workers.

Something Americans need to think about is our standard of living.

How much outsourcing and insourcing can we endure before people live in cardboard boxes? We send jobs to India and China, and they take the money and price you out of buying gasoline to go to work. Then your employer flies a herd of them over to learn your job.

 

[Liar]

"Never"? That's an awfully long time span to cover with a blanket statement.

Try the US in its early days, or Australia. Or medieval Iceland. Here is some background:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho_capitalism#Historical_precedents_for_anarcho-capitalism

And here is another long list of successful societies with no government meddling:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anarchist_communities

Socialism is in part descriptive. It tells of how societites center around common commodities. Marx and his ilks didn't invent rationalization and resource distribution for the "common good" of any given community. They just identified it and thought "myeah, we want as much of that as possible".

Simplified, I know. But my point is just as simple. You may try and minimize those elements of a commuinity, but to rid a community of them in it's entireness is as much a thought experiment as the perfect communist unit is. Both are against human nature (or any damn pack animal) and will simply not allow itself to happen.

And there is no such thing as a community without goverment. Only communities with undefined and unrganized goverment. In which case the "rulers" rule arbitrarily by means of social power instead of political.

 

[emap]

Liar what you are talking about is a city state, they ruled with a big stick until they got bigger then it was ruling with alot of big sticks.

Farm subsidies are a needed part of life for farmers, they don't get those they fold up and maybe someone else will come along and farm there. They started giving those out in the 30's because many of the farms dried up and blew away, repossessed by the banks because they could not produce sellable items. No one moved in after to grow crops. This country would have mostly died of starvation if it was not for the farm subsidies. Same thing would happen now if there were none, being a farmer is not easy, they don't make enough, they need those subsidies just to stay afloat.

I think most of those agrobusinessess you mention, are simply large farms that have to be listed as a business. The number of farms is going down, not because they are being bought up by big business, because it is not terribly a good way of life. They get up at 5 AM work for 2 hours, eat breakfast, go back to work, may get lunch and work until dark, eat dinner and many times go back out to work. Unless they have kids, the wife generally is the one who feeds the animals, she is also the one who gets to slaughter the animals so they have food.

Ever wonder why most farms have chickens and pigs and cows? Because it is cheaper for them to grow their own meats, slaughter it themselves or have a butcher come along and do it, usually they do the cows and pigs. They get milk, eggs and a fertilizer for free along with the meats. If growing crops paid for itself, do you really think they would grow their own food?

 

[Weird Harold]

I think most of those agrobusinessess you mention, are simply large farms that have to be listed as a business.

Agribusinesses -- or more properly AgriCorps or agricultural corporations are more than "simply large farms.

Archer Daniels Midland Corp(ADM) is probably the best known, but it is by no means the only or even necessarily the biggest; they own a piece of everything from the seed stock sold to to their farm managers to the paper-mill that manufactures the boxes they put the cereal into for their stores to sell.