Underage Restriction Clarification, Please!

[SweetErika]

Hi Authors,

I'm editing a story that starts with a relationship between 17 year olds, and describes passionate kissing during that time.

Then they turn 18 (well, it explicitly says the male/narrator does, but it's assumed his girlfriend does as well, and they're both Seniors), but before they have sex it says, "In the nine months we had been dating, we had not had sex. The furthest we had gone was each of us bringing the other off with our hands."

Have you written or encountered anything like this? In your opinion, will it be a problem with the underage sex restriction (i.e. are intercourse/oral/explicit masturbation the real problem, or are explicit making out and getting off via manual included in the provision)?

Thanks in advance!

 

[3113]

Hi Authors,

I'm editing a story that starts with a relationship between 17 year olds, and describes passionate kissing during that time.

Then they turn 18 (well, it explicitly says the male/narrator does, but it's assumed his girlfriend does as well, and they're both Seniors), but before they have sex it says, "In the nine months we had been dating, we had not had sex. The furthest we had gone was each of us bringing the other off with our hands."

Lit allows you to mention kids having sex before 18--there is an acknowledgement that this happens. What it won't allow is the showing or describing of sex between anyone under 18.

So, you can have, as I do in one story, a guy mentioning that by the time he was legal he'd done a lot of things. BUT, I could never have graphically shown any of those things. Likewise, there are plenty of stories where the legal protagonist is very well versed in sex and mentions that they learned this while growing up. BUT we never see any flashback to those under-18 sexual lessons.

I have read stories where teen boys sit together and rub themselves or feel up a girl's breasts or peek at a naked woman (briefly). That seems to be acceptable.

In the end, you never quite know where Lit will to draw the line. A lot depends on the kind of story it is. So I would say the more vague you are about what they did prior to legal age the better. Which means, it's better to say that they just "got each other off but never went all the way..." rather than mentioning the hands. This allows the reader to imagine a LOT of very dirty things, far more than if you specified, and it keeps you from crossing that uncertain line.

 

[Guest]

I PM'ed Laurel regarding (slightly) underage masterbation for one of my stories. If I had her reply, I would forward it to you. Basically, she said absolutely no sexual situations involving minors, including masterbation.

I've read stories that seem to cross that line a bit; but I believe I would leave the kissing at just kissing. You might get away with alluding to more. I don't think something graphic would be accepted. I could be wrong; it wouldn't be the first time.

 

[SweetErika]

The rules allow you to mention kids having sex before 18--there is an acknowledgement that this happens. What it won't allow is the showing or describing of sex between anyone under 18.

So, you can have, as I do in one story, a guy mentioning that by the time he was legal he'd done a lot of things. BUT, I could never have graphically shown any of those things. Likewise, there are plenty of stories where the legal protagonist is very well versed in sex and mentions that they learned this while growing up--willingly or unwillingly. BUT we never see any flashback to those under-18 sexual lessons.

I have read stories where teen boys sit together and rub themselves or feel up a girl's breasts or peek at a naked woman (briefly). That seems to be acceptable.

In the end, you never quite know where Lit will to draw the line. A lot depends on the kind of story it is. So I would say the more vague you are about what they did prior to legal age the better. Which means, it's better to say that they just "got each other off but never went all the way..." rather than mentioning the hands. This allows the reader to imagine a LOT of very dirty things, far more than if you specified, and it keeps you from crossing that uncertain line.

Thanks for the excellent response, 3113.

That's what I was leaning toward telling the author, but other opinions/experiences are always helpful when there's no hard line in a situation like this, as you said. It's great for me to have this knowledge for future reference, as well.

At any rate, it's a small change, as you can see, and I'm sure the author would much rather err on the side of caution than risk having their first submission kicked back.

 

[SweetErika]

I PM'ed Laurel regarding (slightly) underage masterbation for one of my stories. If I had her reply, I would forward it to you. Basically, she said absolutely no sexual situations involving minors, including masterbation.

I've read stories that seem to cross that line a bit; but I believe I would leave the kissing at just kissing. You might get away with alluding to more. I don't think something graphic would be accepted. I could be wrong; it wouldn't be the first time.

That's helpful, thank you!

I don't think the kissing in this one is going to be a problem, though stranger things have been known to happen. It's focused on emotion and relationship/plot development, not arousal, and the actions aren't explicit. The readers will identify with budding teen love and those magical kisses, not think of underage sex, IMO, and hopefully the submission editor(s) will see that as well, as it's an integral part of the plot.

 

[Weird Harold]

I'm editing a story that starts with a relationship between 17 year olds, and describes passionate kissing during that time.

Then they turn 18 (well, it explicitly says the male/narrator does, but it's assumed his girlfriend does as well, and they're both Seniors), but before they have sex it says, "In the nine months we had been dating, we had not had sex. The furthest we had gone was each of us bringing the other off with our hands."

The key to Lit's enforcement is "Graphic" depictions of sex -- so it depends on how the "passionate kissing" is described and the later "flashback" reference to "bringing the other off with our hands" is probably OK.

It would also be a very good idea to be explicit that both pass eighteen before the passion gets explicit.

 

[Pure]

i agree with weird harold. be vague about anything before 18. no graphic details.

as a clue, is the teen reader able to 'get off' on it (your account)? we don't want minors getting aroused from lit stories, nor do we want the adults getting aroused in reading about minors' sexual activities.

by the way, i'm not sure why 'turning 18' is so essential. are they going to vote or something, and fuck in the voting booth? i believe sr year hs can be assumed to be 18, so why can't there be early year ['earlier in that year...']and late year activities without getting into exact age at exact activity. do you need 9 mos to pass because of a pregnancy? if not, why not be vague ['a few months earlier'].

 

[3113]

by the way, i'm not sure why 'turning 18' is so essential.

I'm guessing that the author wanted a teen romance so, given Lit's requirements, the have to just have turned 18 so they can have both--graphic teen (high school-ish) sex that's still acceptable for Lit.

And yes, 18 CAN include senior year is the kid (1) has their birthday in December (so spring semester of school they're 18) or (2) if they had to repeat senior year to get their diploma--in which case, they're 18.

Remember, Lit doesn't force anyone to keep teens virgins prior to 18, just not to show graphic sex between them prior to 18. And that simply because of U.S. law. Now if you want to grouse about U.S. law regarding legal age, I'm right with you. It's pretty absurd to consider someone a minor one day before their 18th birthday and an adult one day after their 18th birthday. It's certainly absurd that a 17 year old having sex with a 16 year old would suddenly, the day after his 18th birthday, be accused of statutory rape.

 

[SweetErika]

The key to Lit's enforcement is "Graphic" depictions of sex -- so it depends on how the "passionate kissing" is described and the later "flashback" reference to "bringing the other off with our hands" is probably OK.

It would also be a very good idea to be explicit that both pass eighteen before the passion gets explicit.

Yes, as I read on, another character says, "You're both adults," before any sex takes place, so we're okay on that front.

Thanks for your opinion, Harold!

i agree with weird harold. be vague about anything before 18. no graphic details.

Thanks, it's always helpful to have Mod input.

as a clue, is the teen reader able to 'get off' on it (your account)? we don't want minors getting aroused from lit stories, nor do we want the adults getting aroused in reading about minors' sexual activities.

That's a good standard, and generally what I go by.

by the way, i'm not sure why 'turning 18' is so essential. are they going to vote or something, and fuck in the voting booth? i believe sr year hs can be assumed to be 18, so why can't there be early year ['earlier in that year...']

In this particular case, the characters grew up together and realized there was a romantic connection between their Junior and Senior years. His 18th bday is part of the plot, and leads to them having sex.

So, while I agree with you, it's essential in this story.

and late year activities without getting into exact age at exact activity. do you need 9 mos to pass because of a pregnancy? if not, why not be vague ['a few months earlier'].

I believe nine months was an arbitrarily-chosen figure (I'm not the author). It works in the context of this story, IMO, but you make an excellent point that I'll keep in mind for the future.


Thanks again (from the author, too, I'm sure), you've all been extremely helpful and given me new things to consider!

 

[SweetErika]

Simply because that's legal age in the U.S. and Lit doesn't want any hastles about underage sex on its website--hastles that might get it into legal trouble.

That is the only reason why it's essential. If this were a site that catered only to British readers, then the required age would probably be 16, the legal age in Britian. And if it were a site for other countries, it might be even younger.

And yes, 18 CAN include senior year is the kid (1) has their birthday in December (so spring semester of school they're 18) or (2) if they had to repeat senior year to get their diploma--in which case, they're 18.

Remember, Lit doesn't force anyone to keep teens virgins prior to 18, just not to show graphic sex between them prior to 18. And that simply because of U.S. law. Now if you want to grouse about U.S. law regarding legal age, I'm right with you. It's pretty absurd to consider someone a minor one day before their 18th birthday and an adult one day after their 18th birthday. It's certainly absurd that a 17 year old having sex with a 16 year old would suddenly, the day after his 18th birthday, be accused of statutory rape.

Good points. KillerMuffin said the senior year is generally accepted as adulthood here in one of the stickies in the EF, but people certainly make it through their senior years and even into college as minors. I didn't turn 18 until I'd been at my university for nearly two months, and then I was technically a college junior.

WA's age of consent is now 16, provided the adult's not a school employee, foster parent, or more than 60 months older AND abusing the 16/17 year old. When I was 16, there couldn't be more than an 18 month difference when the younger person was 16 and up. The revised law seems reasonable in RL, but I still wouldn't want to see graphic sex involving minors here.

 

[3113]

Ah, My apologies, Pure, I misunderstood your comment--I see now that you were refering to the story not the 18 age requirment. My bad! I've edited my post to reflect that.

WA's age of consent is now 16, provided the adult's not a school employee, foster parent, or more than 60 months older AND abusing the 16/17 year old.

That's very interesting. I wish other states would get on the ball there, but most still hold that you're not of conscent till you're of voting age.

 

[Dilbo]

My personal view for erotic fiction or porn is that if a guy is old enough to cum, and a girl is old enough to have hair on her pussy and is capable of reproduction, then that is fair game. The solution is to refer to people of that age as simply "teenagers" because that could be 18 or 19, even though in the author's or reader's mind it could be younger by 5 years or so. For example, one of the greatest fantasies in my life is to have begun fucking my
beautiful 18-year-old sister when I was six years younger than she. This mirrors my own reality.

 

[R. Richard]

In some venues, the "age of consent" is 16, not 18. HOWEVER, Literotica very strictly enforces the 18-year-old limit. This last is probably a good thing, since there are those who would shut Literotica down, given some sort of excuse.

 

[SweetErika]

My personal view for erotic fiction or porn is that if a guy is old enough to cum, and a girl is old enough to have hair on her pussy and is capable of reproduction, then that is fair game. The solution is to refer to people of that age as simply "teenagers" because that could be 18 or 19, even though in the author's or reader's mind it could be younger by 5 years or so. For example, one of the greatest fantasies in my life is to have begun fucking my
beautiful 18-year-old sister when I was six years younger than she. This mirrors my own reality.

So reading about or seeing a 12 year old in porn wouldn't bother you in the least? 'Cause that's when many now have hair and are capable of reproducing.

One of the problems with that for me is that kids in general aren't capable of making good decisons about complex issues like sex because they don't know all of the necessary information or fully grasp the consequences of their actions. When someone who does understand engages in sexual activity with a person who doesn't, it's sexual abuse/assault, and that sickens me.

ETA: The story that brought this thread about was approved a few weeks ago, and has been receiving a ton of positive feedback. Thanks again for your feedback, everyone; I have a far better understanding of what's acceptable now, and will pass that on to authors when the issue arises!

 

[Pure]

i'm so glad this has worked out for you. lit's guideline need not stultify creativity. i'll try to read it!

j

 

[SweetErika]

I don't think the author will mind me giving the link one bit.

It's a First Time story, and very good for a first submission, IMO.

 

[Dinsmore]

Not worth the risk in the current environment

In spite of more dangerous crimes throughout the US the authorities seems hell-bent on going after anyone who even hints at underaged sex. It's just not worth the risk.

My very first story was rejected because I wrote graphically about a boy's sexual evolution from age eight to sixteen. No adults were involved; it was just kids exploring sexuality. I'm glad it was rejected. Other forums that rountinely deal with underaged themes are being shut down and folks are being hauled off in hand cuffs.

I've gotten paranoid; I go to excessive lengths to ensure that even the "hint" of underaged sex is not in a story.

I assure you that the deviants in the Justice Department are reading what you write---probably using only one hand to advance the page---looking for an opportunity to feed the ardor of the lunatic fringe.

 

[Pure]

hi erika,
yes, it seems a decent read. it's reasonably well crafted and smoothly told.

as some have said, the spanking is quite odd. not many 18 year olds are spanked (by dad) except in very traditional homes and in those written about by erotica offers. AND her dad next says, 'go ahead and fuck her,' which is a bit hard to believe.

OR assuming daddy did want to get his daughter laid/hooked up, it would be odd to using spanking (humiliation)-- more he'd leave them together in a private spot, with wink.

i think 'perfect' lives make imperfect stories. 'perfect' first time sex also has probs as a story.

as far as 'live happily ever after'-- if he'd married her, then their daughter gets killed and they get a divorce, that would some one way of approaching reality. of better, they get married have a kid, and she takes time off work for a year. She returns to work in the WTC on Sept 10, 2001.

 

[slyc_willie]

Similar experiences

I did enjoy the story in question, although I echo the above comment about the "go ahead and fuck her" line. But anything is possible, after all, and my own stories often exaggerate or fall outside most concepts of possibility.

I remember reading a father/daughter incest story -- can't remember which one it is at the moment -- in which the writer describes the daughter as 'recently eighteen' and with a newly-born infant. That certainly implies having had sex before the age of consent, yet it was approved by Lit. The daughter goes on to compare her father's penis to her uncle's (who is the father of her child), further implying sexual activity.

At the same time, my original version of "Cousin Lacey" alluded to the main characters having engaged in mutual masturbation and even oral sex, without actually describing such, and it was initially rejected. Although I have to admit that in the rewrite (which was accepted), there is some allusion involved when the narrator mentions having "missed those breasts." So it seems there is a grey area there.

I get the feeling that the standards by which (alluded) underaged sex is accepted or rejected in a story depends upon who reviews it before acceptance.

I am contemplating an incest story in which a man unwittingly has sex with his own daughter. The premise is that the man is in his mid-thirties and has no idea that his first girlfriend, with whom he lost his virginity when they were both in the mid-teen years, became pregnant and gave birth to their daughter, who later (they meet when she is twenty-one) becomes his lover.

I never intended to describe that first sexual experience, but worry that mentioning 'two young lovers sharing a tender gift' at the age of fifteen might make grounds for rejection. And that would ruin the "surprise" factor of the reader finding out that the main character's lover is actually his daughter.

Any suggestions?

 

[cloudy]

I did enjoy the story in question, although I echo the above comment about the "go ahead and fuck her" line. But anything is possible, after all, and my own stories often exaggerate or fall outside most concepts of possibility.

I remember reading a father/daughter incest story -- can't remember which one it is at the moment -- in which the writer describes the daughter as 'recently eighteen' and with a newly-born infant. That certainly implies having had sex before the age of consent, yet it was approved by Lit. The daughter goes on to compare her father's penis to her uncle's (who is the father of her child), further implying sexual activity.

At the same time, my original version of "Cousin Lacey" alluded to the main characters having engaged in mutual masturbation and even oral sex, without actually describing such, and it was initially rejected. Although I have to admit that in the rewrite (which was accepted), there is some allusion involved when the narrator mentions having "missed those breasts." So it seems there is a grey area there.

I get the feeling that the standards by which (alluded) underaged sex is accepted or rejected in a story depends upon who reviews it before acceptance.

Laurel and Manu know full well that people have sex before they're 18 years old. The deal is, you can allude to someone having sex before they're 18 - VERY VAGUELY - sort of like you mentioned a story where a character is just 18, but has a child...she had sex, duh, but it wasn't described or written about AT ALL.

You're very specific in what you mention above (mutual masturbation, oral sex), so I'm willing to bet you did more than just "allude" to it. Of course, without reading the story, I have no idea, but I've found in my time here that Laurel does her utmost to be fair.