Men seeking to write women better

[ArdentHemingway]

I expect this has been discussed here many times, but a quick search of this forum didn't find any.
As a straight man trying to write erotic fiction (porn) involving women -- MF and FF scenarios -- my audience is primarily straight men. Yet I don't want to piss off any women readers. I know that it is common for men to write women poorly, and I am no exception. So I want to improve how I write women.

I have seen that sometimes someone will ask something like, "why do men write women so poorly?" and someone else will respond, "because they don't ask for help". This may generally be true. But, yesterday I asked for help on another "adult" site and I was shut down. So another answer to the question would be, ** "because women won't help them when they ask" **.

The mod where I had asked had assumed:
1) That I was writing main-stream fiction -- no, I'm writing porn, I asked on an adult site after all, I think it's reasonable to assume that I'm writing porn
2) That I was describing an underaged girl -- no, I was asking for advice about describing the mother (probably about forty years old) of a "barely legal" girl (which is another whole can of worms)

To quote: "we do not sexualize underage girls in this group, and that's the only reason why you would need to describe her breast shape. I'm going to refer you to "men writing women" sources for more information about how men utterly fail in writing female characters."

Then, of course, the mod did not actually refer me to anything at all, just closed the thread.
My own searches for such advice leads only to advice about writing main-stream fiction, not porn.
I found advice about:
1) "Writing for women" (i.e. a female audience) -- which is not what I am asking for.
2) "Writing from a woman's perspective" -- ye gads, no, I will never attempt that.
3) Get a woman as a beta reader -- yes, that's good advice for when the story is more complete.
4) Just write people/characters -- again, that's fine for main-stream fiction, but not for porn.

[rant over]

Oh, Bob help me... I am not freaking asking for advice!
My point is that women (people) need* [clarification: should not refuse] to help men (other people) write women (yet other people) better -- particularly in erotic fiction -- at least when a man (person) actually asks for help.
Dismissing male authors as unteachable doesn't help improve things. Some of us recognize our faults and want to improve.
"A man's gotta know his limitations." -- Harry Callahan

* Yes, mea culpa, I should not have said it that way. I meant "we men need help from women". Isn't it more common to say, "I need to water the plants", rather than, "the plants need me to water them"?

 

[AchtungNight]

What I do is write people who are the characters I want to write and explore. Their gender is just one part of who they are. My advice to you is to try writing from a female perspective. A woman who wants your characters. Don’t read those essays you describe. Just do it and see if you can make it happen. I’ve been doing it since the 90s, never had any complaints, and I’m a man.

 

[Altissimus]

How do you write anything? You do your research, learn about it, then write it.

If I want to write a tree, I don't complain that other trees won't tell me how to write about the tree I had in mind.

 

[AlinaX]

Why am I suddenly so depressed?

 

[Altissimus]

My point is that women need to

And that point may have a fair amount to do with why you're struggling.

"A man's gotta know his limitations." -- Harry Callahan

...and then overcome them, rather than use them as an excuse.

 

[StillStunned]

If I want to write a tree, I don't complain that other trees won't tell me how to write about the tree I had in mind.

"Come on, Oak," Pine said softly. "You have to learn to bend, be flexible."

I just stared at her woodenly.


Back on topic: I try to write people. Then I go back and think whether what I've written works in their situation: their gender, their position, their wants and dreams, their experiences. Then I go back again and delete everything and write a sex scene.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

My point is that women need to help men write women better -- particularly in erotic fiction -- at least when a man actually asks for help.
Dismissing male authors as unteachable doesn't help improve things. Some of us recognize our faults and want to improve.

If your audience is males and your genre is porn, for the most part you don't need to write plausible realistic women. In fact, any non-unicorn women that you write might actually hurt your success.

However, if you are still interested in writing a better woman character, start with giving her a motive other than simply being slutty or horny.

I can give more advice but you'd have to be more specific on what aspects.

 

[lovecraft68]

FWIW 'Barely Legal" is not an underaged term....look at the second word "Legal" its a porn term for an 18 year old without using the word teen

I wish they gave a fraction of a fuck about their joke rape rule as they did the underage rule

My most recent story got an underaged kick back, I think in my time here its only the second time and like the first instance, this one was also incorrect.

The story title had the words "mommy and daddy" so I am guessing they saw that and thought I was writing from a child's POV which I wasn't, there's a reason for that being the title. When I resubmitted it I put in the notes field "Please see these lines in the opening paragraphs"

"Being we were 18 that summer, we had to attend the adult bible study"

"I was 18 and had never seen a woman naked"

Further down "We're 18 now, we can get jobs and save money to move out."

The story went through after that, its just another example of how head scratching their method is, whether its a bot, or Laurel...there is zero consistency other than being inconsistent.

The ironic thing is the rule is so easy to beat its laughable to the point I am convinced the site knows how its done, knows its being done, but is fine with wink wink.

 

[Bamagan]

How do you write anything? You do your research, learn about it, then write it.

If I want to write a tree, I don't complain that other trees won't tell me how to write about the tree I had in mind.

I am Groot.

 

[Bamagan]

Why am I suddenly so depressed?

Only suddenly?

 

[EmilyMiller]

My point is that women need to help men write women better -- particularly in erotic fiction -- at least when a man actually asks for help.

Why, hun? Why do we need to do this? Not being confrontational. But why? What is the obligation you refer to?

Dismissing male authors as unteachable doesn't help improve things. Some of us recognize our faults and want to improve.

Then read female-penned porn. You don’t need a teacher. Just read.

"A man's gotta know his limitations." -- Harry Callahan

So do women. And maybe teaching men about women is not something that all women will want to do. We are H. sapiens like you. Just with different bits of anatomy.

Em

 

[HordHolm]

My advice would be:

1. Read. Read books written by women, in which women do things that don't solely revolve around how to get a guy.
2. Talk to women in your life. Not about porn stuff but just about life stuff. And actually listen to the responses.
3. People watch (in a non-creepy way) and imagine what is going on in the lives you see around you. What are these people thinking about, worrying about, hoping to achieve?
4. Be aware that we see exactly this kind of post on these boards about once a week and it often turns rapidly into 'could one of you women perhaps personally colab with me? I'm deep and sensitive and, err, I've got some dick pics if you're interested'. This makes many of the AH denizens a touch sceptical about the kind of questions you're asking. Assuming you're asking in good faith then look at my suggestions 1 -3 above, hang around here for a while, chew the fat, get to know people and let them get to know you, and then... perhaps there's some specifics that people might be cool helping you with.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Look on line for the differences between men and women's writing. There you will find the words women use more often than men. Make sure your men use the masculine words, those they use most often, and feminine words for the females, the ones used most often by women, and write their the dialog to fit. But how women act, how men act, there aren't any specific things you need to do. And as EM said, we don't have any obligation to teach men writers how to write anything.

 

[ElectricBlue]

My point is that women need to help men write women better -- particularly in erotic fiction -- at least when a man actually asks for help.

Women are under no obligation to do this at all. They don't "need" to do anything to help men write women. That's probably not the best way to start.

How do you write men? You know some men, right?

Surely you must know one or two women?

Dismissing male authors as unteachable doesn't help improve things. Some of us recognize our faults and want to improve.

There are plenty of male authors who write convincing female characters, probably because they're writing about people.

Write about people with emotions, feelings, the lives they go on with. Then weave in their sexual activity. I suspect you're doing it the wrong way around.

 

[madelinemasoch]

Yeah, I don't think OP was implying women are under an "obligation" to help men write women. I think he means for the sake of the art, i.e. for the sake of better female characters, women would have to help men with that when they ask or else the art suffers. Need–need in order to what? To make better stories overall. Not just need in general.

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

If you are trying to understand women as a species, you've got your work cut out for you. If you are trying understand a woman, likewise, you better roll up your sleeves and get in it for the long-haul.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Men seeking to write women better​

So, maybe this will help.

I’ve written stories with a male narrator / protagonist.

But, before that, I wrote a story in which the FMC and another girl wake up and magically have cocks. A Futanari story (I was going through a bit of a pre-op female transsexual phase in my porn).

So what I did was to think. I’m an ex-biologist, so I know that a lot of our “sexy nerve bundles” are pretty similar. So some of the sensations should be similar. And I’m obviously pretty familiar with cocks .

What I did next was to ask three guys (not at random, existing friends) what it was like to feel your cock growing, or to touch it yourself, or for someone else to touch it. A lot of the feelings weren’t entirely different to female arousal.
So I was encouraged.

And I then I used my imagination. It turned out OK.

Then. When I had my MMC as the narrator for the first time, I just channeled the guys I know and made my story guy an amalgam of them.

Some men say that my guy characters are too in touch with their emotions. They cry too easily, for example. But quite a few women have said they like how I portray men and it’s a bit more realistic. Maybe both are kinda true.

But, as I have said before, empathy and imagination are your friends. Women are not from Venus, they are from Earth. And we aren’t that different to you.

Em

 

[Jackie.Hikaru]

My point is that women need to help men write women better -- particularly in erotic fiction -- at least when a man actually asks for help.
Dismissing male authors as unteachable doesn't help improve things. Some of us recognize our faults and want to improve.
"A man's gotta know his limitations." -- Harry Callahan

There are scores of women out there that will gladly help you understand how to write women better. Heck I'll even give you a few names:

Jane Austen
Margaret Atwood
Daphne du Maurier
Toni Morrison
Virginia Woolf
The Brontë sisters
and for erotica:
Valerie Taylor
Anaïs Nin

These women will hang out with you for hours if necessary.

I'll even give you some men that do a pretty damn good job:
Stephen King (Carrie specifically)
Terry Pratchett
Kazuo Ishiguro
Brandon Sanderson

 

[Djmac1031]

. Be aware that we see exactly this kind of post on these boards about once a week and it often turns rapidly into 'could one of you women perhaps personally colab with me? I'm deep and sensitive and, err, I've got some dick pics if you're interested'. This makes many of the AH denizens a touch sceptical about the kind of questions you're asking. Assuming you're asking in good faith then look at my suggestions 1 -3 above, hang around here for a while, chew the fat, get to know people and let them get to know you, and then... perhaps there's some specifics that people might be cool helping you with.

Came here to basically say the same thing.

And to speak from experience, because I made a similar mistake early on when I joined here.

My question about female orgasm was in good faith, BUT in retrospect I fully understand the reaction I got.

Bottom line: women don't "have" to teach you.

It's your job to learn. Not there's to teach.

Welcome to the forum. Hang out. Meet people of all genders. Read various stories. Learn from it all. And try your best.

 

[Bamagan]

But, as I have said before, empathy and imagination are your friends. Women are not from Venus, they are from Earth.

This feels like an excellent place to drop some panspermia.

 

[Euphony]

Yeah, I don't think OP was implying women are under an "obligation" to help men write women. I think he means for the sake of the art, i.e. for the sake of better female characters, women would have to help men with that when they ask or else the art suffers. Need–need in order to what? To make better stories overall. Not just need in general.

Setting aside the context/interpretation issue (which I agree with the many who posted that other context made that part read more in the spirit of a demand)

Why does a woman here (or anywhere) need to do anything, for art's sake or any sake.

Men are hardly bereft of research material to accomplish this rather basic writely task. They often do have an abundance of expectation and laziness inherent to their position in society throughout most of History.

If someone truly wanted to do the work, it is fairly easily done in this informational age. That's why so many eye roll at the neverending requests. It AIN'T THAT HARD. (and the excuses and blaming grow tiring)

I write shit grammar but nobody here is required to give me their time and share their hard earned knowledge just to "save" the erotica art form.

 

[HordHolm]

Some men say that my guy characters are too in touch with their emotions. They cry too easily, for example. But quite a few women have said they like how I portray men and it’s a bit more realistic. Maybe both are kinda true.

Well, you did write a nominally male space octopus who reminded me quite a lot of slacker flatmate I used to have.

 

[onehitwanda]

My point is that women need to help men write women better -- particularly in erotic fiction -- at least when a man actually asks for help.

Unfortunately the experience for a lot of female writers is that requests for help are often simply stalking horses for unwanted advances.

 

[madelinemasoch]

I write shit grammar but nobody here is required to share their hard earned knowledge just to "save" the erotica art form.

They should.

If someone truly wanted to do the work, it is fairly easily done in this informational age. That's why so many eye roll at the neverending requests. It AIN'T THAT HARD. (and the excuses and blaming grow tiring)

He made it very clear he already looked elsewhere on the internet for this purpose. I don't see an excuse or the laying of blame anywhere in what he said, except towards that rude failure of a "moderator" on the other site he mentioned.

Men are hardly bereft of research material to accomplish this rather basic writely task. They often do have an abundance of expectation and laziness inherent to their position in society throughout most of History.

LOL. Most men throughout most of history have been stupid and poor, dying in wars for men richer than them, and working their asses off to make ends meet. That hasn't changed.

Why does a woman here (or anywhere) need to do anything, for art's sake or any sake.

...so that we don't write badly?

Setting aside the context/interpretation issue (which I agree with the many who posted that other context made that part read more in the spirit of a demand)

Who cares what it reads like. That's not what he meant.

 

[Euphony]

They should.

Absolutely not. Nobody owes me their time/efforts because of how they chose to invest their time when I was doing other things.

MOST are kind enough to offer a helping hand when earnest attempts are made. Grousing about your perceived gender state of affairs and making demands ain't that.

He made it very clear he already looked elsewhere on the internet for this purpose. I don't see an excuse or the laying of blame anywhere in what he said, except towards that rude failure of a "moderator" on the other site he mentioned.

Oh, well if someone says they did due diligence and it's just not out there, it must be true.

You believe they searched the forums and somehow found NOTHING on one of the top 3 AH subjects of all time?

Who cares what it reads like. That's not what he meant.

Who cares what it reads like? You write as a hobby and are so flippant about context?