Unconditional Love

[~Dream~]

what kind of love??

Unconditional love only occurs between a parent and child.

On the other hand, the vicitim in an abusive situation who keeps loving long after the abuse and mistreatment starts, is that unconditional love? Is that love at all?

I stayed in an abusive realtionship for 6 long years and I can see
no reason to call it an unconditional love at all..as a matter of fact it was so far AWAY from LOVE that it wasnt even funny..people that are abusive are no longer deserving of our love esp unconditionally

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: what kind of love??

I stayed in an abusive realtionship for 6 long years and I can see
no reason to call it an unconditional love at all..as a matter of fact it was so far AWAY from LOVE that it wasnt even funny..people that are abusive are no longer deserving of our love esp unconditionally

~~~~~~~~~~~Absolutely, Dream. It's not love at all. There are other dynamics at work where an abuser and abusee are concerned.

Rose

 

[MsWorthy]

Off topic

Using *than* in a sentence indicates a comparison, not a judgement.

One can compare apples and oranges as to sweetness, tartness, and color. There is no judgement of value in the descriptive "sweet," "tart," or "red" (color). The same can be said of other descriptive words/modifiers, such as more, less, higher, lower, darker, brighter, etc. The words do not carry a positive or negative connontation in their meaning, they simply describe. If you "feel" a judgement based on reading these words, it comes from within you.

I prefer a tart fruit.

My partner prefers a sweet fruit.

I would say that oranges are more tart than apples.

Is my comparison a "judgement" of apples and oranges, with one being a "winner" and the other being a "loser"?

Is one of these preferences somehow inherently "better" than the other?

If Joan states that she has more conditions for love than her friend Suzy does, is she saying she is pickier (too picky) than Suzy or more discerning (more careful, higher expectations)? The judgement of value is imposed by the reader/listener unless Joan makes her position (her judgement) known by stating it.

I fail to see the advantage in rushing to assume an insult is intended when there is no evidence that this is the case. Why not assume the positive until it is proven otherwise? It makes for less headaches and hard feelings.

"Never assume the negative when the positive is just as likely."

 

[april-wine]

Love for your children probably unconditional.....

Love for your mate unconditional, that is a little harder to define....We all have our personal biases....We all have our limits, cheating, abuse...etc etc....

I don't belive love for a mate is unconditional....I do believe that it changes and grows everyday....What may have drawn you to your mate, maybe isn't why you stay....

Anyway my .02 cents.......

 

[DustyWolfe]

I've been thinking about this question.. I agree that the love for your mate is something that changes and grows. Yet I believe that it is still unconditional.
The love for your mate should be something without bounds or boundaries. You don't stop loving them over something stupid or anything like that. Most of you know what I've been through recently. Did I stop loving her? No... Nothing could take that love away, truly. I forgave her and we are trying to move on. We started over new with no falsehoods. Yes, I love her unconditionally. If I didn't I would not have forgiven her.

 

[A Desert Rose]

well said

I've been thinking about this question.. I agree that the love for your mate is something that changes and grows. Yet I believe that it is still unconditional.
The love for your mate should be something without bounds or boundaries. You don't stop loving them over something stupid or anything like that. Most of you know what I've been through recently. Did I stop loving her? No... Nothing could take that love away, truly. I forgave her and we are trying to move on. We started over new with no falsehoods. Yes, I love her unconditionally. If I didn't I would not have forgiven her.

~~~~~~~Understood, Dusty. Good luck to you both.

 

[Daddyslilpet]

Dusty, that's an excellent point. I've been in that place with Master many times in the past. Hurt feelings happen, but it doesn't stop you from loving that person.

Hugs to both you and Jen for your bravery in starting a new.


dixi

 

[SexySusan]

MzWorthy, I was just going to ask that exact question ... who said "more stringent" equals "better"?

As to unconditional love: I do think children love unconditionally. And at the same time they don't. Their lives depend on being loved and taken care of. I think mother nature with her instincts might have her hands in that one ... and the same applies for parents. Much of that unconditional love comes from our urge to spread our DNA. I'm such a spoil sport, am I not? Totally unromantic.

I have to agree with dustygrrl and dixi. Loving means in spite of what he might do, or what he might be. My boyfriend snores. I hate that. If I didn't love him, I sure wouldn't sleep anywhere near him. But I do love him, so I smile, and roll him over. Maybe one day my love for him will fade. And then I might not put up with his snoring anymore. But I don't think I will stop loving him because he snores. I think love (and many many other things in life) are about choices. If it is my free-willed decision to be with someone, to like someone, I will do that with all my heart. I'm not cut out for half-hearted affairs.

And another thought: I remember this was discussed in another thread already - is it harder to find a BDSM partner than a 'nilla partner? Well when I'm looking for a partner then I'm looking for the one special person that matches, in more than just one respect. When I'm not into BDSM and not gay, that means my choices are also limited ... all the MzChristas and MzWorthys and Shadowsdreams are out of question ... I don't think it is easier or harder for either side. But I think for BDSM people it would be more difficult, if not impossible, to compromise, so they look closer. They don't think "I don't like his hairdo ... but I hope I can change that and then he'll be perfect"

For Persephone: one of my favorite Chinese proverbs goes like this
"Know yourself so that you may understand others."

 

[Persephone36]

Persephone: one of my favorite Chinese proverbs goes like this
"Know yourself so that you may understand others."

Love it! Thank you Susan, I happen to love Chinese proverbs myself. That's a wonderful one.

I memorized one that I use as a mantra for meditation, I think it's a good one for anyone -- but there's a good sub connection in there too, lol. Here's just the beginning of it --

Give up, and you will succeed.
Bow, and you will stand tall.
Be empty, and you will be filled.
Let go of the old, and let in the new.
Have little, and there is room to receive more.

~Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching

Out of topic of course -- but an interesting proverb to ponder.

P.

 

[zipman]

An excellent opinion

Having seen just read this entire thread in one sitting - (of course I'm at work right now), I have to say that every time I read one of Risia's posts, I grow more and more impressed with her ability to see through to the heart of the matter. I think she always shows class and tact (or a reasonable facsimile) when addressing issues that she disagrees with. I for one wish she would post more often!

As far as unconditional love goes, I just don't believe in it. I am not disagreeing with those of you who say they have it, I just personally don't believe in it as a concept.

Cirrus best represented my view when she stated "I have no kids, but I could not love a child who killed, who was needlessly cruel to other children or to animals, who didn't have basic respect for other human beings. Even if it was my child. No way."

I would have to agree with this. Unconditional means no matter what. If I had a child (I would love that child with all my heart). If that child grew up to be a murderer and a rapist, I truly don't believe that I would love the child the same way. I think a lot of people start out with unconditional love. And some may stay that way because the right conditions didn't present themselves to change that.


More than just 2 cents worth.

 

[MsWorthy]

Re: An excellent opinion

Having seen just read this entire thread in one sitting - (of course I'm at work right now), I have to say that every time I read one of Risia's posts, I grow more and more impressed with her ability to see through to the heart of the matter. I think she always shows class and tact (or a reasonable facsimile) when addressing issues that she disagrees with. I for one wish she would post more often!

As far as unconditional love goes, I just don't believe in it. I am not disagreeing with those of you who say they have it, I just personally don't believe in it as a concept.

Cirrus best represented my view when she stated "I have no kids, but I could not love a child who killed, who was needlessly cruel to other children or to animals, who didn't have basic respect for other human beings. Even if it was my child. No way."

I would have to agree with this. Unconditional means no matter what. If I had a child (I would love that child with all my heart). If that child grew up to be a murderer and a rapist, I truly don't believe that I would love the child the same way. I think a lot of people start out with unconditional love. And some may stay that way because the right conditions didn't present themselves to change that.


More than just 2 cents worth.

I agree Zip. I believe that unconditional means just that, no conditions. That means, to me, that if I love you unconditionally, I will love you even if you commit rape, murder, or molest/abuse a child. I do not love any adult unconditionally.

As far as loving children and children loving their parents unconditionally, I believe it is as unconditional as is possible. If my child was needlessly cruel, I would find a way to stop that behavior, but I would not stop loving that child (even if that meant having that child locked up). Once that child became an adult and had the knowledge, experience, and forethought needed to control her/his impulses, and had an understanding/empathy of what they were doing to another, my love would no longer be without conditions.

 

[zipman]

Re: Re: An excellent opinion

I agree Zip. I believe that unconditional means just that, no conditions. That means, to me, that if I love you unconditionally, I will love you even if you commit rape, murder, or molest/abuse a child. I do not love any adult unconditionally.

As far as loving children and children loving their parents unconditionally, I believe it is as unconditional as is possible. If my child was needlessly cruel, I would find a way to stop that behavior, but I would not stop loving that child (even if that meant having that child locked up). Once that child became an adult and had the knowledge, experience, and forethought needed to control her/his impulses, and had an understanding/empathy of what they were doing to another, my love would no longer be without conditions.

Excellent addition to my thoughts MzW (If I may call you that). Your distinction between adults and children is well noted and agreed with.

 

[MsWorthy]

Re: Re: Re: An excellent opinion

Excellent addition to my thoughts MzW (If I may call you that). Your distinction between adults and children is well noted and agreed with.

MzW is fine, Zip. Thank you for asking.

 

[~*sunkyssed_kym*~]

I memorized one that I use as a mantra for meditation, I think it's a good one for anyone -- but there's a good sub connection in there too, lol. Here's just the beginning of it --

Give up, and you will succeed.
Bow, and you will stand tall.
Be empty, and you will be filled.
Let go of the old, and let in the new.
Have little, and there is room to receive more.

~Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching

Out of topic of course -- but an interesting proverb to ponder.

P.

Persephone, In some ways I think it applies to the topic. Its about letting go of all of the outer and looking within, isn't it? To me, that's what unconditional love is all about.
One of my favourites is:
Happiness doesn't mean everything is perfect;
It means that you've decided to see beyond the imperfections!
Its good to see that many of you share the idea of unconditional love. Granted this may seem as folly to others, but as long as WE believe, it helps to make the world a nicer place.

 

[quietwillow]

I believe in unconditional love. We are all human and we may not "love" a person's behavior but that does not mean we do not love them unconditionally.
Facing truths and facts in life about our loved ones and saying to ourselves that we do not like what they do but we still love them is not always easy, can often be painful, and comes at times with a price.
In this sense separating the behavior from the person allows you to better understand how unconditional love can be obtained.

quietwillow

 

[zipman]

I believe in unconditional love. We are all human and we may not "love" a person's behavior but that does not mean we do not love them unconditionally.
Facing truths and facts in life about our loved ones and saying to ourselves that we do not like what they do but we still love them is not always easy, can often be painful, and comes at times with a price.
In this sense separating the behavior from the person allows you to better understand how unconditional love can be obtained.

quietwillow

The question then becomes what do you love about a person. Isn't a person a combination of thoughts, values, and behaviors. To love someone unconditionally, I would need to love all 3 of them. I think babies and young children are the only ones I could love unconditionally.

 

[MsWorthy]

The question then becomes what do you love about a person. Isn't a person a combination of thoughts, values, and behaviors. To love someone unconditionally, I would need to love all 3 of them. I think babies and young children are the only ones I could love unconditionally.

Yes, Zip, I do think we love a person based on a combination of "qualities" (thoughts, values, and behaviors), else we would love everyone we met. My (or your) love wouldn't be very special if that was the case, would it.

This difficulty in defining what love is, was the reason I stated (in the beginning thread post) that we must find some common ground (concerning what love means) in order to have this discussion.

*smiles*

 

[zipman]

Yes, Zip, I do think we love a person based on a combination of "qualities" (thoughts, values, and behaviors), else we would love everyone we met. My (or your) love wouldn't be very special if that was the case, would it.

This difficulty in defining what love is, was the reason I stated (in the beginning thread post) that we must find some common ground (concerning what love means) in order to have this discussion.

*smiles*

Thank you so much for referring me to the first page of the thread again. To be honest with you, the posting and subsequent discussion of KM's comments derailed my thinking. By the time I got to the end, I was more focused on the conditional vs. unconditional discussion of love, and NOT on the question you originally posed.

Do you feel that, by the nature of the power exchange, couples in a d/s relationship are even more conditional than other couples. In other words, are the conditions of our acceptance, commitment, and love for a partner more stringent than the conditions a 'nilla person might have?

I don't feel that couples in a d/s relationship are more conditional or stringent than other couples.

Here's my reasoning:
Every relationship is based on a variety of what I call "Compatability Factors." These could be different for all people, but to list a few there's Emotional Compatability, Intellectual Compatability, Humorous Compatability, Sexual Compatability etc. The weighting (or importance) of these Compatability Factors are different for everyone. I may need a partner who can discuss politics and has a comprehensive grasp of current events, history and political theory as being able to discuss the political implications of given event are very important to me. To someone else, Intellectual Compatability may be much less important.

I believe that to most people into BDSM, the Sexual Compatability MAY have a greater importance than for other couples, however, for the couple in a non-BDSM relationship, Intellectual Compatability may have a much greater importance. This is not to say that it isn't important to those in a BDSM, it just MIGHT not have the same level of importance. To go back to the political example, it may be enough for me to be with someone who understands some elements of politics, but doesn't necessarily have the full knowledge of political theory, political history and current events. People in a 'nilla relationship may just place a different level of importance on their factors. In my opinion, it may not be harder or more stringent, just different.

Whew - Sorry for the length of this but I was having trouble articulating it more quickly.


And on a side note, I think it is a good question, and shouldn't be considered insulting to anyone.

 

[PlayDoe]

It's all the same

"Do you feel that, by the nature of the power exchange, couples in a d/s relationship are even more conditional than other couples. In other words, are the conditions of our acceptance, commitment, and love for a partner more stringent than the conditions a 'nilla person might have?"



It never ceases to amaze me how we tend to think we may be so different from everyone else in the world. I would say that everyone in this world is engaged in a power exchange, whether they realize it or not. We are especially engaged in a type of power exchange with our kids. Does that make our love for them more stringent? Of course not! But then again maybe it does in a way.

Whatever your basis is for a relationship, if you truly love someone, you will adjust your conditions of what is acceptable. You will talk and work things out with that person when things aren't going right.

If you were only allowed to make one choice in life of a partner and you could never break that bond, do you think that your love would become unconditional for that person? That's kind of what it is like with our children isn't it? It is an unbreakable bond.

 

[MissTaken]

Playdoe!

Good point. It is almost funny that we are talking about unconditional love on this forum.

For MOST of us, by nature of the fact that we are here, aren't their already conditions or going to be conditions on that love.

I don't believe anyone here is with or would look for someone who wasn't involved in D/s to fall in love with.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Playdoe!

Good point. It is almost funny that we are talking about unconditional love on this forum.

For MOST of us, by nature of the fact that we are here, aren't their already conditions or going to be conditions on that love.

I don't believe anyone here is with or would look for someone who wasn't involved in D/s to fall in love with.

Not me. I do not fall in love with my subs. I have two of them and I am not in love with them nor am I ever apt to be in love with them.

When I was with tavish, we fell in love first, (against my better judgment) and it seems that I was right. It was a mistake.


All I want from my subs is their submission and the "magic" that Shadowsdream so aptly describes between Dom/me and sub.

My sexuality and relationships are not limited to D/s, never have been, never will be.

Ebony <YMMV>

 

[catalina_francisco]

Another interesting oldie....

Catalina

 

[BiBunny]

Nice bump, Cat. I think I'm going to feel the need to ramble on this one.

My mother has never loved me unconditionally. She's always placed very BIG conditions on her love (or approval). I'm pretty much over it by now, but I think vestiges of that "you're not good enough for my love/approval/appreciation" will always be there in the back of my mind.

For that reason, it is very hard for me to love someone else. I can care deeply for people, respect them, and admire them, but I have a hard time sharing that part of myself that's capable of love. When I am able to get past that hang-up and truly love someone, though, it's always unconditional. It sounds nice, sounds romantic, but it gets me in trouble more often than not. I have been in love three times in my life, and Kitty is the only person who has not taken advantage of it. I cannot share emotions halfway; I will not be like my mother and place conditions on my love for another.

I sometimes wonder if that's not at least part of the reason that I'm polyamorous, too. When I fell in love with B., I didn't stop loving Kitty. My love for one person doesn't replace my love for another because I don't have that "I'll love you until someone better comes along" mentality. I don't know if I'm making sense or not; I'm just rambling.

 

[neonflux]

Nice bump, Cat. I think I'm going to feel the need to ramble on this one.

My mother has never loved me unconditionally. She's always placed very BIG conditions on her love (or approval). I'm pretty much over it by now, but I think vestiges of that "you're not good enough for my love/approval/appreciation" will always be there in the back of my mind.

For that reason, it is very hard for me to love someone else. I can care deeply for people, respect them, and admire them, but I have a hard time sharing that part of myself that's capable of love. When I am able to get past that hang-up and truly love someone, though, it's always unconditional. It sounds nice, sounds romantic, but it gets me in trouble more often than not. I have been in love three times in my life, and Kitty is the only person who has not taken advantage of it. I cannot share emotions halfway; I will not be like my mother and place conditions on my love for another.

I sometimes wonder if that's not at least part of the reason that I'm polyamorous, too. When I fell in love with B., I didn't stop loving Kitty. My love for one person doesn't replace my love for another because I don't have that "I'll love you until someone better comes along" mentality. I don't know if I'm making sense or not; I'm just rambling.

Bunny, I would say everything you said makes sense. What a blessing you have in Kitty!

My SO and I have unconditional love for each other. Outside of my baba (grandmother), my sister and my best friend - and I have only come to understand very lately my mother - I have never experienced being loved or loving like this.

And I agree with you that loving one person does not change the love one has for another. I am convinced that the human heart is boundless.

Neon

 

[ownedsubgal]

unconditional love is very much possible within D/s. my Master and i love one another unconditionally, absolutely....meaning that no matter what we do, how we change, what drastic changes my take place in each of us...we will always love one another. unconditional love is very rare tho, imo...most people love with limits or conditions, even (especially) their own children. i've never understood the idea that a parent's love for a child is unconditional, when often this is the most conditional love of all.