Bogus, when I first came to Literotica and encountered Senna Jawa, I felt and reacted much like you do and have. I was so sure he was FULL OF CRAP that I set to read all of his poems that I could find; intending to show him up for the talentless phony he was. In the process of the reading I found I was learning a lot, and I never completed my mission. Perhaps you will succeed where I failed. If you would like to try, you can start here:bogusbrig said:
Yes, I remember. Somehow, the Chinese and the Skalds, and the folk poetry got to the very root of poetry, while most of the rest of the literary world, including Arnold's environment, got wrong ideas. However, you write also:Angeline said:
Maybe you are right about Su Wu and his time but I rather doubt it. I think that Su Wu was ahead of his time. Chinese needed time to develop their aesthetics and philosophy, it was not always like this. They peaked perhaps in the 8th century, about 800 years after Su Wu. They had marvelous poems earlier too, as the one by Su Wu, but those poems were the ones that have contributed to the progress rather than the ones which simply have represented the poetry level of their times. I am sure that they had some folk art on the highest level, quality wise, but the Chinese too had many poor texts. After centuries we are exposed only to the best texts hence we may get a wrong idea about the times in general, if we are not careful. Let me repeat that I am not sure. Possibly Chinese were mature poetically already around 100BC.
But it's worse than that. Let me get some sleep and then I will write more about the Matthew Arnold's poem (you guys are sooo lazy!
).You are right. And the final
)) version should appear on a separate page. However, despite of the impression from this forum, I am a social creature, thriving on the interaction. Also, on one hand I'd like to put down in writing what I have (I feel that it would be a pity to let it go to waste), while on the other hand somehow it's hard for me to actually do it. A friend of mine has directed me to a good server, where I already have started (just barely) to put mathematics:
Only for the unperceptive. I'm laughing my ass off right now.Senna Jawa said:My problem with this forum was always that it is so humorless. Your idea of humor is to attach the smiley emoticon
Senna Jawa said:My problem with this forum was always that it is so humorless. Your idea of humor is to attach the smiley emoticon
Senna Jawa said:Yes, I remember. Somehow, the Chinese and the Skalds, and the folk poetry got to the very root of poetry, while most of the rest of the literary world, including Arnold's environment, got wrong ideas. However, you write also:
Maybe you are right about Su Wu and his time but I rather doubt it. I think that Su Wu was ahead of his time. Chinese needed time to develop their aesthetics and philosophy, it was not always like this. They peaked perhaps in the 8th century, about 800 years after Su Wu. They had marvelous poems earlier too, as the one by Su Wu, but those poems were the ones that have contributed to the progress rather than the ones which simply have represented the poetry level of their times. I am sure that they had some folk art on the highest level, quality wise, but the Chinese too had many poor texts. After centuries we are exposed only to the best texts hence we may get a wrong idea about the times in general, if we are not careful. Let me repeat that I am not sure. Possibly Chinese were mature poetically already around 100BC.
Certainly at one time Chinese already understood what is a good poetry and what is not, while today this understanding is missing in general but for a fractional version as represented by Ezra Pound views. Variations of the Ezra Pound rules/advices are taught today in the States at colleges. The problem is that where Pound and the college instructors have but some pragmatic suggestions (a lot), Chinese had a whole view on the man and universe, a whole philosophical system. They didn't pass their knowledge to the world because of their style. Greeks would make an explicit, general theory, while Chinese style is to explain by generic examples (it is the way of poetry too). That works very well when you are a part of the environment, but it does not work that well when you are distant from the teachers.
The case of Skalds is very interesting too, extremely so.
You are right. And the final
mathBit.I am thinking about opening another page there, at 50webs, for poetry, called "PoeBit". We will see.
bogusbrig said:
) His poetry is marvelous, in my opinion, and whether one agrees with him wholeheartedly or not, he's quite the teacher. I've learned so much from him.
Liar said:
Angeline said:And I thought you were a mean cynic at first, but then I discovered you're a sweety and more than a little of a romantic--yes, I'm outing you and I won't take it back either.
Don't be angry. Keep reading. He grows on you.
This is my favorite poem of his:
the cities of the city
Ever the peace maker. 
Amen to that.Angeline said:Yup. And his curmudgeonliness (is that a word?) doesn't affect my ability to respect him for his intelligence and ability or to learn from him.
I don't think we're humorless, but I also think he can be very very funny.
Anyway, if I couldn't deal with disagreements I'd never have lasted four weeks here, let alone four years.
flyguy69 said:Like this has ever bothered you before!
I think you should publish a collection of your wisdom. A pocket-sized tome in dark leather cover called The Book of Lies.Liar said:...
That's my key to anything these days. Take the good parts, and see the bad parts for what they are. If someone else has an attitude problem, don't make it yours. I keep making that mistake now and then. But less and less. And for that, I'm a happier man.
Liar said:Amen to that.
Can't say I've learned much from reading Senna's posts. I have no doubt he knows what he's talking about mos tof the time, but we´re just not compatible communication-wise. Same reason I can't take a gangsta rapper seriously - not a sliver of doubt about anything. But his poetry is very good, and educational in itself to read. I let that speak for itself these days.
That's my key to anything these days. Take the good parts, and see the bad parts for what they are. If someone else has an attitude problem, don't make it yours. I keep making that mistake now and then. But less and less. And for that, I'm a happier man.
Liar said:Amen to that.
Can't say I've learned much from reading Senna's posts. I have no doubt he knows what he's talking about mos tof the time, but we´re just not compatible communication-wise. Same reason I can't take a gangsta rapper seriously - not a sliver of doubt about anything. But his poetry is very good, and educational in itself to read. I let that speak for itself these days.
That's my key to anything these days. Take the good parts, and see the bad parts for what they are. If someone else has an attitude problem, don't make it yours. I keep making that mistake now and then. But less and less. And for that, I'm a happier man.
Where'd that come from now? Not understandable to whom, and in what context? Obviously, poets and poems are understandable to those calling them good. No poet is magically "coined" good by some objective jury, but by people who read, understand and like their work. You are free to call anyone you want a good poet, to your standards and tastes. Buy don't try to impose your opinion of what's good as if it is a standard, or else you're just as elitistic as the intellectuals, whoever they are.My Erotic Trail said:
tarablackwood22 said:
Liar said:
