Turn rape into love?

[XerXesXu]

Then you are saying everyone who wrote, edited, and read the Stand, IT, Lolita, or other mainstream literature, should be in jail?

You'll appreciate I can only give opinions on what I've read. Mainstream literature is rather broad. I've never read the Stand. I've sampled Lolita.

To keep my response short, read #277 to understand in general where I'm coming from.

No, I can see that some people may take offence at the age difference. It's more of a caution or morality tale than anything else. You may see some reflections of obsessional sexual thoughts, then script formation, then acting out scripts. The narrator may well have been an actual psychology professor.

Cognitions evoked = absent, Arousal evoked = absent.

It doesn't in any way resemble the cognitions of my clients in terms of type or, I suspect, level, but it does resemble the scripts which some child sex offenders evolve into behaviours which then lead to offending.

From the point of view of harm, I suspect it would prove totally harmless. I can see why some might find it moralistically offensive.

 

[XerXesXu]

If you cannot do that then you are in no position to opine with any confidence that the material found at Literotica is obscene under US law.

In one sense, it’s remarkably easy to opine on what’s potentially obscene material to be found on Lit under US law. It’s what prosecutors do, or there’d be no prosecutions. Miller required the States to elaborate definitions that could be read and understood. No more, ‘I can’t define obscene, but I know it when I see it’ before sending a poor soul to prison.

You’re confusing fashion and priorities - enforcement activity- with enforceability. Fashions change. Obscenity has been off the radar for many years. But the world is dynamic, ever changing, and we know what’s coming down the road.

The internet continues to change society and people grow up to, primarily, live and socialse online. People become socialised in online communities and absorb their culture and values. Girls commit suicide. Boys become incels and shoot a few people. Russian bots seek to undermine elections. ‘Patriots’ storm the capital building in Washington. The French set fire to Paris .. well, at the drop of a hat, but they coordinate using social media. Worse still, in the middle of a pandemic, communities form to promote the line that experts are wrong, the Government is wrong, Big-Pharma is using the pandemic to fraudulently peddle useless, even harmful, medications and vaccines. Thousands die, allegedly.

Worst of all, people are claiming that the President’s son is a criminal drug user, even mock his daughter.

This is intolerable, says the US Government, it’s harmful nonsense and the Government has a duty to act to prevent harm. It tells the social media platforms what’s harmful and browbeats them with ever more coercive threats. ‘Use your Good Samaritan’ immunity to curtail and remove these peoples’ free speech, or we’ll remove your ‘Safe Harbour’ immunity. The platforms submit.

missouri-v-biden-ruling.pdf

I’m expecting that there will be a reckoning. Conditionality between ‘Good Samaritan’ conduct and ‘Safe Harbour’ immunity is likely.

I’d like there to be a clear evidence-based understanding of what written material can cause harm, to strictly limit curbs on internet free speech to the minimum necessary. I don’t care if writings and other communications are obscene, I only care if they’re harmful.

I’d rather the minimum necessary restrictions be determined by research and evidence rather than eg: applying the precautionary principle - a shrug of the shoulders, ‘Why take a chance.’

I’m not a passive person, I’m happy to tell my MP how he should vote and why. Even he likes to see evidence.

Late PS: Note that, as a practical matter, prosecutors would have to find someone to prosecute. The platforms have immunity. The posters and readers wear a cloak of invisibility – they’re anonymous. That will have an effect on prosecutions for online writing.

 

[JohnSm123]

Then you are saying everyone who wrote, edited, and read the Stand, IT, Lolita, or other mainstream literature, should be in jail?

I bet that if the director of Hounddog (2007) was a man, he'd be in jail.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Since you've never lived on the streets after running away from an abusive parent, I'll let your ignorance slide. First, doing things to survive doesn't make you slag. When you call her a slag, you've called me a slag. She was at the very least beaten by her father, quite possibly rapped by him. After all, the mother is nowhere to be seen. She either ran away as well, or maybe he killed her and buried her in the back yard. You're an unforgiving person, set in your ways, narrow-minded, and it's always the woman's fault in the way you wrote about her. Redemption doesn't figure into your view of things, except maybe for a man.

Reading between the lines, because I ran away from an abusive parent, I think she'd been raped by him. But that isn't implicitly said in the film. And her father, the deputy sheriff, was a criminal. The boy was on crutches for a reason. Did you miss that part? As to the medicine pouch, my adoptive father has one. He doesn't believe it has magical powers. It holds things that have meaning to him. Whether Billy Jack believed it held magical powers or not, the religion in question isn't Navaho. It's a century-and-half-year-old religion known as Ghost Dance, which originated in the Northern Plains tribes but it spread to all the tribes. Ghost Dance incorporates Native American and Christian beliefs in a hybrid religion.

And to your point, the movie isn't a sex movie that was my point. The scene would be enjoyed by a rapist and fuel his imagination. That was your point for banning certain erotica worldwide and criminalization of it. You'd hold the world to your particular view.

I'm particularly pissed at your terrible view and description of the young daughter of the deputy sheriff. It's pure unadulterated hate of women in general. But that's my opinion, and maybe you consider prostitutes victims of society. I doubt that you do, but is possible you are just piss poor at expressing your sympathy for others.

The deputy-sheriff’s daughter is a 15 year old slag. Whatever else you say about her, she’s no racist. The tensions between father and daughter explode when she tells her father she’s pregnant and hasn’t got a clue by whom because she sleeps around. He brutalises her. She runs away to the hippy/commune in Indian Territory which is policed by our hero. He holds traditional indigenous beliefs, was trained in Kung-Fu by the Green Berets and has a fetish. No, not a paraphilia, a fetish, a little bag of feathers and stones which magically protect him from harm.

The deputy’s daughter is in love with a dark-skinned indigenous person who walks with the aid of crutches. And so on.

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

You'll appreciate I can only give opinions on what I've read. Mainstream literature is rather broad. I've never read the Stand. I've sampled Lolita.

To keep my response short, read #277 to understand in general where I'm coming from.

No, I can see that some people may take offence at the age difference. It's more of a caution or morality tale than anything else. You may see some reflections of obsessional sexual thoughts, then script formation, then acting out scripts. The narrator may well have been an actual psychology professor.

Cognitions evoked = absent, Arousal evoked = absent.

It doesn't in any way resemble the cognitions of my clients in terms of type or, I suspect, level, but it does resemble the scripts which some child sex offenders evolve into behaviours which then lead to offending.

From the point of view of harm, I suspect it would prove totally harmless. I can see why some might find it moralistically offensive.

The original reviews of the book called it "Sick, Scandalous, and Spectacular." Many wanted it banned, and it was banned in many communities. Then again, so is Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn now. So, if you don't mind, too very much, I'll determine what I think is sick or scandalous without you blocking stories for me. If the cops come for me, well I know lawyers who will jump to defend me and my right to read.

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

The director/writer of Jeepers Creepers III was in jail for pedophilia.

 

[XerXesXu]

Since you've never lived on the streets after running away from an abusive parent, I'll let your ignorance slide. First, doing things to survive doesn't make you slag. When you call her a slag, you've called me a slag. She was at the very least beaten by her father, quite possibly rapped by him. After all, the mother is nowhere to be seen. She either ran away as well, or maybe he killed her and buried her in the back yard. You're an unforgiving person, set in your ways, narrow-minded, and it's always the woman's fault in the way you wrote about her. Redemption doesn't figure into your view of things, except maybe for a man.

Reading between the lines, because I ran away from an abusive parent, I think she'd been raped by him. But that isn't implicitly said in the film. And her father, the deputy sheriff, was a criminal. The boy was on crutches for a reason. Did you miss that part? As to the medicine pouch, my adoptive father has one. He doesn't believe it has magical powers. It holds things that have meaning to him. Whether Billy Jack believed it held magical powers or not, the religion in question isn't Navaho. It's a century-and-half-year-old religion known as Ghost Dance, which originated in the Northern Plains tribes but it spread to all the tribes. Ghost Dance incorporates Native American and Christian beliefs in a hybrid religion.

And to your point, the movie isn't a sex movie that was my point. The scene would be enjoyed by a rapist and fuel his imagination. That was your point for banning certain erotica worldwide and criminalization of it. You'd hold the world to your particular view.

I'm particularly pissed at your terrible view and description of the young daughter of the deputy sheriff. It's pure unadulterated hate of women in general. But that's my opinion, and maybe you consider prostitutes victims of society. I doubt that you do, but is possible you are just piss poor at expressing your sympathy for others.

Frankly, I couldn't believe you pointed at this movie as an example of material that could be banned. You've put your view in the context of your life.

I remind you; you asked for my opinion. I gave my opinion, for reasons expressly set out, that there was zero chance of it being banned on harm-based grounds. I based my opinion on my knowledge of the research, and experience representing sex offenders, on whom the burden of proof falls when applying to get OUT of custody. You're free to disagree. I wouldn't care if you accused me of saying one thing, but secretly believing another, but you don't, you accuse me of expressing an opinion diametrically opposite to that I expressed. So I care, for you, not for me.

You may not like the word 'slag', but I grew up on the streets of London. It's the 'mot juste', as we would say. It means a promiscuous female. It was whoever created the plot who deemed it necessary that she should be promiscuous, not me.

I lighted on the word ‘fetish’ because, like the word ‘taboo’, it’s a word white culture used to describe its differences from indigenous cultures, but now means something else, particularly on Lit.

The point, in the movie, of introducing the fetish was to emphasise the cultural clash between the county and the Indian territory.

For those who’ve not seen the movie, its take-home message is conveyed by the mixed culture children at the hippy school who line the roads to hail the hero, who’s being led away by the ‘good’ sheriff of the county, to be given a fair trial for summarily executing the rapist with one one karate chop ( a sucker punch). The rapee has persuaded him not to take the easy way out and go out fighting. He takes the hippie route, ceasing the violence, changing what he can and enduring what he can’t. He gets a fair trial. The school gets funded for a further 10 years.

The children are our future.

 

[XerXesXu]

The original reviews of the book called it "Sick, Scandalous, and Spectacular." Many wanted it banned, and it was banned in many communities. Then again, so is Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn now. So, if you don't mind, too very much, I'll determine what I think is sick or scandalous without you blocking stories for me. If the cops come for me, well I know lawyers who will jump to defend me and my right to read.

You say 'it was banned'. Lolita? Why? What harm could it do? I'd certainly defend your right to read it.

Which is what I said in my response to you.

I'm detecting a pattern. You're wrong if you disagree with some people. But they reserve a special place in their hierarchy of disdain for those who agree with them.

 

[XerXesXu]

The director/writer of Jeepers Creepers III was in jail for pedophilia.

He pleaded guilty to a number of offences including having a 12-year-old actor perform oral sex on him.
Edgar Allen Poe married his 13-year-old cousin. Elvis Presley married a 13-year-old girl. Joan Baez recorded without the benefit of autotune. All these would be regarded as criminal offences today, does that mean their catalogues should be banned?

I've looked up IMBd for Jeepers Creepers III. I'm not going to watch it, not my taste.
My wife and a motley collection of grandchildren and their cousins aged from five to thirteen watched this last night. It has creepers in it, if you like that kind of thing. Just watch the last 10 mins. I've no reason to believe it was unsuitable for children. It was horrific and they loved it.
Shake Rattle and Roll Xl

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

You say 'it was banned'. Lolita? Why? What harm could it do? I'd certainly defend your right to read it.

Which is what I said in my response to you.

I'm detecting a pattern. You're wrong if you disagree with some people. But they reserve a special place in their hierarchy of disdain for those who agree with them.

You'd have to ask the citizens of Boston and other communities at the time. Why is any artistic endeavor banned? Why was Refer Madness banned? It's quite harmless today. Why have Mark Twain's writings been banned? He used the N-word in books that clearly show bigotry to be foolish. People can be stupid. A select few have always attempted and often succeeded in controlling what the majority get to know about. Why did 14 people plan out the "Final Solution" in Germany, and all but one of the official records of the meeting get destroyed?

I hold no disdain for you, I simply don't want you to determine what is correct for me. I don't want you usurping my rights by determining what I may or may not read or write. You can have your view, and you're welcome to it. But kindly don't tell me they're coming to take me away if I read a book.

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

The comment was directed at you. It was directed at John Sm123 in reply to his comment:

I bet that if the director of Hounddog (2007) was a man, he'd be in jail.

I simply posted a situation where a director was jailed for what he did on a set, not for what movie he made.

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

He pleaded guilty to a number of offences including having a 12-year-old actor perform oral sex on him.
Edgar Allen Poe married his 13-year-old cousin. Elvis Presley married a 13-year-old girl. Joan Baez recorded without the benefit of autotune. All these would be regarded as criminal offences today, does that mean their catalogues should be banned?

Elvis met Priscilla when she was 14, in 1959, they weren't married until 1967, making her considerably older than 14. He was married only once, so, no he didn't marry a 13-year-old girl, ever!

Girls, at the time of Poe could marry as young as 11 or 12. Customs change. And Joan Baez didn't need auto-tune. Her husky voice was perfect. Here you're arguing against yourself. I'm not saying any work of art should be banned. I don't believe we, meaning the writers on this site, generally write porn. Nor do I believe most erotic literature is porn.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Frankly, I couldn't believe you pointed at this movie as an example of material that could be banned. You've put your view in the context of your life.

I remind you; you asked for my opinion. I gave my opinion, for reasons expressly set out, that there was zero chance of it being banned on harm-based grounds. I based my opinion on my knowledge of the research, and experience representing sex offenders, on whom the burden of proof falls when applying to get OUT of custody. You're free to disagree. I wouldn't care if you accused me of saying one thing, but secretly believing another, but you don't, you accuse me of expressing an opinion diametrically opposite to that I expressed. So I care, for you, not for me.

You may not like the word 'slag', but I grew up on the streets of London. It's the 'mot juste', as we would say. It means a promiscuous female. It was whoever created the plot who deemed it necessary that she should be promiscuous, not me.

I lighted on the word ‘fetish’ because, like the word ‘taboo’, it’s a word white culture used to describe its differences from indigenous cultures, but now means something else, particularly on Lit.

The point, in the movie, of introducing the fetish was to emphasise the cultural clash between the county and the Indian territory.

For those who’ve not seen the movie, its take-home message is conveyed by the mixed culture children at the hippy school who line the roads to hail the hero, who’s being led away by the ‘good’ sheriff of the county, to be given a fair trial for summarily executing the rapist with one one karate chop ( a sucker punch). The rapee has persuaded him not to take the easy way out and go out fighting. He takes the hippie route, ceasing the violence, changing what he can and enduring what he can’t. He gets a fair trial. The school gets funded for a further 10 years.

The children are our future.

It actually is a fun movie, but as a protest to the mistreatment of minorities and a plea for peace, it does a piss poor job. One, Billy Jack hadn't one ounce of Native American in him. Two, the Native Americans trust that the terms of the agreement will be honored by the very government that hasn't honored a tenth of the treaties it entered into with Native American people. Three, it is an extremely violent film with the "pacifist side" kicking substantial ass. Four, the writers, mostly Deloras Tyalor and, to a much, much lesser degree, her husband Tom Laughlin, wrote from observations of the mistreatment of Native Americans in the 1940s. While this mistreatment wasn't gone, it had turned more subtle, and yes, subtle doesn't work well for action movies. The acting is laughable in some scenes by the local "talent." The first Billy Jack movie, Born Losers, was a far more professional film.

I don't think anyone left the theater thinking, we need to do something about all the bigotry in the world. Most people left the moving talking about all the fight scenes and how badass Billy Jack was.

And I don't accuse you of expressing an opinion opposed to what you stated, diametrically or otherwise. I pointed out rapists can find things arousing that others don't. If you try to eliminate all their outside influences, you have to regulate every that might arouse them to action, which you cannot do. You'd have to regulate women's clothing. Fashion magazines would be outlawed because they are provocative. All drinking would have to be outlawed, men rape when they are drunk, and women make bad decisions under the influence.

A rapist doesn't need a dirty story to inspire him to rape. Perhaps he rapes less because he reads about it and releases some of that pressure.

The rules here force those who write about rape to have the woman get something out of it, either revenge or pleasure. So, naturally, it is easier to write it where they like it.

On paysites, the description of rape in erotica is almost entirely verboten. But mainstream stories can get away with anything, even making it erotic.

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

Elvis Presley married a 13-year-old girl.

Maybe you've confused Elvis with Jerry Lee Lewis, who married his 13-year-old cousin, Myra. This marriage wrecked his career for several years. It didn't help that she was his third wife (he was 22 at the time) and not yet divorced from his second. It also wasn't much help when he married his second wife the divorce of his first wife wasn't completed. Jerry had issues.

 

[alohadave]

Maybe you've confused Elvis with Tommy Lee Lewis, who married his 13-year-old cousin, Myra.

Jerry Lee Lewis?

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

Jerry Lee Lewis?

Thanks, I corrected it now.

 

[XerXesXu]

You'd have to ask the citizens of Boston and other communities at the time. Why is any artistic endeavor banned? Why was Refer Madness banned? It's quite harmless today. Why have Mark Twain's writings been banned? He used the N-word in books that clearly show bigotry to be foolish. People can be stupid. A select few have always attempted and often succeeded in controlling what the majority get to know about. Why did 14 people plan out the "Final Solution" in Germany, and all but one of the official records of the meeting get destroyed?

I hold no disdain for you, I simply don't want you to determine what is correct for me. I don't want you usurping my rights by determining what I may or may not read or write. You can have your view, and you're welcome to it. But kindly don't tell me they're coming to take me away if I read a book.

Let's stick with the USA. You know what they say about people when they have to turn to Nazi Germany references.
Otherwise, you answered your own question - local community standards. The USA moved away from harm-based tests when it reduced the bar for obscenity from 'matter having a tendency to deprave and corrupt' to 'matter appealing to a prurient interest' - that's stuff which appeals to Lit readers.

I'm not telling you they're coming to take you away, they can't, they don't know who you are. I'm warning you that they're coming to take your ability to post and read the stuff that people like to write and read on Lit.

One of the more bizarre defences raised by Team Biden in Missouri v Biden is that there's cross-party support in Congress for reform pf S230. It's coming. How would you like it to be reformed? I'm on your side.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I follow the rules at Lit. I don't complain about them. I don't work around them. If I'm not sure if something will trip a trigger or not, I ask about it here. Mary only has one story that has a forced sex scene it, and I've never figured out why she wrote that story. I'm in no way going to break the rules here or at the paysites I post to. However, the stuff in some mainstream books that push the very buttons we can't does sort of piss me off that they can and we can't. I suppose if, like my two novellas, the sex part isn't a main part of the story, I could push the boundaries a bit. But since most of my work is erotic (or I hope it is), I don't for fear they might bounce something because my usual fair is for erotica.

Let's stick with the USA. You know what they say about people when they have to turn to Nazi Germany references.
Otherwise, you answered your own question - local community standards. The USA moved away from harm-based tests when it reduced the bar for obscenity from 'matter having a tendency to deprave and corrupt' to 'matter appealing to a prurient interest' - that's stuff which appeals to Lit readers.

I'm not telling you they're coming to take you away, they can't, they don't know who you are. I'm warning you that they're coming to take your ability to post and read the stuff that people like to write and read on Lit.

One of the more bizarre defences raised by Team Biden in Missouri v Biden is that there's cross-party support in Congress for reform pf S230. It's coming. How would you like it to be reformed? I'm on your side.

 

[XerXesXu]

Maybe you've confused Elvis with Jerry Lee Lewis, who married his 13-year-old cousin, Myra. This marriage wrecked his career for several years. It didn't help that she was his third wife (he was 22 at the time) and not yet divorced from his second. It also wasn't much help when he married his second wife the divorce of his first wife wasn't completed. Jerry had issues.

Maybe. In the old days, many people did. Many men like their girls, like their cars, bright shiny and new. it's been that way for most of history. Arguably, it's a default preference, but that's an argument for somewhere else.

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

Yeah, well, I have my own issues. Especially with white, Jew bastard I was married to the first go round.

Maybe. In the old days, many people did. Many men like their girls, like their cars, bright shiny and new. it's been that way for most of history. Arguably, it's a default preference, but that's an argument for somewhere else.

I watched Conspiracy this morning, so that was on my mind as one of the royal fuck you's of all time. And no, I've never heard of referencing the holocaust as anything more than the history of my family.

Let's stick with the USA. You know what they say about people when they have to turn to Nazi Germany references.
Otherwise, you answered your own question - local community standards. The USA moved away from harm-based tests when it reduced the bar for obscenity from 'matter having a tendency to deprave and corrupt' to 'matter appealing to a prurient interest' - that's stuff which appeals to Lit readers.

I'm not telling you they're coming to take you away, they can't, they don't know who you are. I'm warning you that they're coming to take your ability to post and read the stuff that people like to write and read on Lit.

One of the more bizarre defences raised by Team Biden in Missouri v Biden is that there's cross-party support in Congress for reform pf S230. It's coming. How would you like it to be reformed? I'm on your side.

 

[AsianFusion]

First of all, the question itself shows a complete lack of understanding of what rape is and what it represents.

That said, I feel kind of old being the one who remembers the rape scene on General Hospital. It was the beginning of the Luke and Laura period of the show which catapulted General Hospital not only to the top of the soap opera heap, but into one of the most popular American TV shows of the Era. The song that played during the rape scene soon shot to the top of the charts, as well!

It is hard to imagine such an episode airing today. No explanation was ever offered for how she fell for him as a result of it. It was appalling really. She divorced her husband, who went from being a good guy into a bad guy. Needless to say, Luke went from being a bad guy to a good guy, who would later team up with Elizabeth Taylor (a fan of the show, who asked to be written into it with a brand new character!) to save the world from annihilation.

It became a bit far fetched after that.

"It became a bit far fetched after that." lol

 

[AchtungNight]

Seriously, this idea is appalling and should not be done.

But, that said, the best way to do it is to have the victim attracted to the perp before the event. The perp was unsure how to handle their own attraction to the victim, didn’t know of the victim’s feelings either, and they were impatient about things. So maybe she slipped a drug into his drink- female on male is a double standard in many circumstances- and when he woke up in her bed with her naked the next morning… maybe he finds the drug and asks her “Did you use this on me? You know, you didn’t have to do that… next time tell me your plans and let me show you what I can do for you when I’m awake, okay?”

The above story can easily be gender flipped too, it just might not be as easily acceptable to readers.

There are other ways to handle the issue also. I once read an erotic novel where a huge black man verbally threatens a woman who walks past him on the street with rape. She looks him up and down, licks her lips, and corrects him- “It won’t be rape if I want it.” They then proceed to have tense but tender relations.

 

[madelinemasoch]

There are other ways to handle the issue also. I once read an erotic novel where a huge black man threatens a woman who walks past him on the street with rape. She looks him up and down, licks her lips, and corrects him- “It won’t be rape if I want it.” They then proceed to have tense but tender relations.

That's... pretty good.

 

[AchtungNight]

That's... pretty good.

It was Eric Lustbader’s novel Sirens if you’re interested.

 

[Cagivagurl]

[No personal attacks or trolling - including creating accounts for this specific purpose. Heated discussions are fine, even welcome. However, personally attacking / kink-shaming a fellow author or reader is not allowed within the Author's Hangout. Threads which devolve into the exchanging of insults will be closed and repeat offenders will be given a timeout, per the AH rules.] - LAST WARNING