Truth about the Bali Bombings

[mack_the_knife]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, Gringao . . . you do have a rigid and irrelevant view of politics . . .

As do you, powertool.

Haven't you heard . . . that in democracies that have compulsory voting governments lose elections, oppositions rarely win elections . . .

Who the fuck has cumpulsory voting? THEY FORCE YOU TO VOTE? Now that's fucking funny. You really get quality decisions, I'm sure. What do they do to you if you refuse? I know, they force you to go live in the USA, right?

I cite the case of the unlosable 2001 Oz election where Honest Johnnie Howard was returned to office by using the age old threat of the Asian invasion and the "Kids Overboard" lie . . .

Sucks that your folk cant win even if unopposed?

Methinks Woody and Rob, that Gringao has seen the error of his "logic" and cannot face the fact that his personal view of the world is incongruous with what is actually happening.

Unlike your peculiarly utter clear-sightedness? Bullshit.

I mean, AmeriKKKan government propaganda says "The government will look after you" as they rip up social welfare programmes to pay the over $us 1 BILLION PER WEEK cost of the illegal, immoral invasion, occupation and carpet-bagging of Iraq . . .

Which the fuck are we in the US are we racist, homophobic, anti semites, or the servants of the zionists, you folk need to make up your fucking minds. Fuck, you've got 92% white boys in your country and you think we're the KKK? Import some damn genetic diversity, Aryan Son, it might keep dickheads like you from popping up so often.

. . . as 40% of the home service National Guard are "conscripted" to serve "on rotation" in the Iraq active war zone where deaths since "peace" was declared have exceeded the death toll of the invasion . . .

They signed the contract, they took the checks, and 99% aren't whining about it nearly as loudly as your ass. Crybaby.

. . . as millions of skilled and unskilled manufacturing jobs are exported to low labour cost Asian countries leaving highly trained American workers to do menial service jobs only considered fit for the millions of illegal immigrants that flood into America to prop up the declining economy of the "American Dream" that has become the "AmeriKKKan Nightmare" . . .

I don't know about you, but I'd rather not have a unskilled labor job. Home ownership in the USA is at the highest rate in history, dipshit. That's the cornerstone of the American Dream. You really need to quit reading the 'fact sheets' from liberal media that shows everyone in soup lines and waiting for some sort of government handout. US purchasing parity $40,000, Australian purchasing parity $30,000. Get your own house in order before throwing rocks at mine. Again, quit reading those liberal rags, they're not telling you the truth. We're 25% richer than you and you're, for some reason, belittling our economic model? How would you like to make 25% more on your paycheck? Betcha you'd like that, huh? Too bad, you're not in the USA! Prick.

. . . as Divine Intervention against AmeriKKKa in the form of Katrina, Rita and Wilma smash their way across the political States that spawned this Shrubya Fascist government in the "Land of the free" . . .

Um, you've obviously not been within sighting distance of a Hurricane, they don't smash their way all that far inland. The media has been making it look like AmeriKKKa is half devistated. We're, in general, suffering less from Katrina, et al. than you might believe. A good portion of the people from New Orleans have decided they don't even want to go back after it's rebuilt. The liberal mecca that was New Orleans was fucking them raw and now they know it. While 90% of your population might be concentrated on the coasts, we've actually got infrastructure out of reach of ocean storms. New Orleans will be open in time for Mardi Gras, what else is that hole in the ground good for?

You really should learn your terminology and history. Fascists hated religion, it interferred with their fanaticism in the nation. You have been wooping up a STATE RUN TELEVISION STATION and you dare to mock "land of the free?" You can't even get your information without it being filtered through the lense that your government wants it run through. Sad, really. Hitler controlled all the radio stations when he was in charge, too.

You're as blind as anyone with your bigoted ideologies and arrogant assumptions. While extremists exist on both sides of every issue, your blind obeyance to some anti-American zealotry is sad and misplaced. I suppose if the USA ceased to exist, your life would somehow have more meaning? No, wait, you'd be living in Imperial Japan, instead. Likely slave labor in mines or some such (the Japanese were legendary for their cruelty to those they conquered until we nuked them into becoming pacifists). Or do you think that your 1/15th or so of the population would have had enough production capacity to smoke the Japanese Navy? You sure as hell wouldn't have had the balls to put a swift end to that war. Hell, you still couldn't. Pussy.

Be glad you live in a nation free enough to allow people like you to remain alive and among the general population.

Please feel free to sling anti-American insults at me now...you know you want to, we're a big country, we can take anything you got, pud.

 

[mack_the_knife]

Now you have become delusional Gringao . . . I am not in the Islamist movement . . . I am in the "save America movement", saving America from the Fascist regime in the White House that was elected in "unusual circumstances" in 2000 . . . and remains as a plague on the world ever since . . .

Nice thing about American presidents, they're gone in 8 years, no matter what. Does your hated PM have to step down in any certain time limit, or are you stuck with him forever? You're overuse of the word fascist, and misuse, frankly, is sad and shows an utter lack of regard for the English language. For your benefit, I'll post the true definition, so that you can, in the future, use it more appropriately:

Edited to add - We don't need saving by the likes of you, clear? Please, we'll be okay without your special sort of help. Thanks for the offer, send us more actors, or something equally useful, Mel's about done.

1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
--- Now, as you'll note, GWB (known to you and Shrub or something equally clever, I'm sure) cannot even get his hoped-for Social Security Reform looked at by congress, proving he's not a dictator. You, yourself have quoted liberal news sources, thereby disproving censorship. Belligerant Nationalism, I can buy that YOU might see it that way. Racism - I go back to the fact that you've got 92% homogeniety in your nation of white people, so come back to me when you're white population is under 50% of the total, KK? I ask, gently, that you find another 'catch phrase' to show your hatred of the Shrub in Chief, as that one just doesn't fit for shit.

In Oz sadly, Beasley, the Labor Leader, is unlikely to become Prime Minister . . . but I have found very few people willing to admit to voting for Howard and the conservative Liberal/National "coalition" parties . . . in either 2001 or 2004 . . .

That's likely because of the huge placard you tote around with some witty anti-conservative slogan spray painted on it (I'm sure, involving something very clever with the use of KKK in the place of a 'c'), and the fact that you probably spend a lot of your time hanging out in the egg-sack with like minded liberal individuals. Just because your happy arse don't know who voted for him, must mean no one did, right. Is 'Oz' really so small that you've spoken with most of the electorate? Or could it be that you tend to hang out in places where people like yourself congregate <gasp> no, couldn't be that, could it?

 

[Le Jacquelope]

That's likely because of the huge placard you tote around with some witty anti-conservative slogan spray painted on it (I'm sure, involving something very clever with the use of KKK in the place of a 'c'), and the fact that you probably spend a lot of your time hanging out in the egg-sack with like minded liberal individuals. Just because your happy arse don't know who voted for him, must mean no one did, right. Is 'Oz' really so small that you've spoken with most of the electorate? Or could it be that you tend to hang out in places where people like yourself congregate <gasp> no, couldn't be that, could it?

Apparently in your god forsaken part of Oz there isn't enough intelligence on the entire block to figure out how to screw in a light bulb.

 

[mack_the_knife]

Apparently in your god forsaken part of Oz there isn't enough intelligence on the entire block to figure out how to screw in a light bulb.

(Sigh) and to think I took you off of ignore for that insightful look into your mind. Just where the hell did you start thinking I was from Australia? Or am I perhaps from THE Oz? You know Dorothy, Toto, that schtick?

 

[Don K Dyck]

As do you, powertool.


Who the fuck has cumpulsory voting? THEY FORCE YOU TO VOTE? Now that's fucking funny. You really get quality decisions, I'm sure. What do they do to you if you refuse? I know, they force you to go live in the USA, right?


Sucks that your folk cant win even if unopposed?


Unlike your peculiarly utter clear-sightedness? Bullshit.

Which the fuck are we in the US are we racist, homophobic, anti semites, or the servants of the zionists, you folk need to make up your fucking minds. Fuck, you've got 92% white boys in your country and you think we're the KKK? Import some damn genetic diversity, Aryan Son, it might keep dickheads like you from popping up so often.


They signed the contract, they took the checks, and 99% aren't whining about it nearly as loudly as your ass. Crybaby.


I don't know about you, but I'd rather not have a unskilled labor job. Home ownership in the USA is at the highest rate in history, dipshit. That's the cornerstone of the American Dream. You really need to quit reading the 'fact sheets' from liberal media that shows everyone in soup lines and waiting for some sort of government handout. US purchasing parity $40,000, Australian purchasing parity $30,000. Get your own house in order before throwing rocks at mine. Again, quit reading those liberal rags, they're not telling you the truth. We're 25% richer than you and you're, for some reason, belittling our economic model? How would you like to make 25% more on your paycheck? Betcha you'd like that, huh? Too bad, you're not in the USA! Prick.


Um, you've obviously not been within sighting distance of a Hurricane, they don't smash their way all that far inland. The media has been making it look like AmeriKKKa is half devistated. We're, in general, suffering less from Katrina, et al. than you might believe. A good portion of the people from New Orleans have decided they don't even want to go back after it's rebuilt. The liberal mecca that was New Orleans was fucking them raw and now they know it. While 90% of your population might be concentrated on the coasts, we've actually got infrastructure out of reach of ocean storms. New Orleans will be open in time for Mardi Gras, what else is that hole in the ground good for?

You really should learn your terminology and history. Fascists hated religion, it interferred with their fanaticism in the nation. You have been wooping up a STATE RUN TELEVISION STATION and you dare to mock "land of the free?" You can't even get your information without it being filtered through the lense that your government wants it run through. Sad, really. Hitler controlled all the radio stations when he was in charge, too.

You're as blind as anyone with your bigoted ideologies and arrogant assumptions. While extremists exist on both sides of every issue, your blind obeyance to some anti-American zealotry is sad and misplaced. I suppose if the USA ceased to exist, your life would somehow have more meaning? No, wait, you'd be living in Imperial Japan, instead. Likely slave labor in mines or some such (the Japanese were legendary for their cruelty to those they conquered until we nuked them into becoming pacifists). Or do you think that your 1/15th or so of the population would have had enough production capacity to smoke the Japanese Navy? You sure as hell wouldn't have had the balls to put a swift end to that war. Hell, you still couldn't. Pussy.

Be glad you live in a nation free enough to allow people like you to remain alive and among the general population.

Please feel free to sling anti-American insults at me now...you know you want to, we're a big country, we can take anything you got, pud.

Uhmmm . . . in reply to this unadulterated drivel . . . Oz and NZ have compulsory voting . . . it is considered a civic duty . . .

We don't get criminals elected to the Prime Minister's office . . . unlike the American Presidency in 2000 and 2004 . . .

Uhmmm . . . it was aussie "Chockos" (equivalent to American "National Guardsmen") that inflicted the first defeat on the japanese Army at Irarawa in the New Guinea highlands . . . they then fought a retreat over six weeks that stopped the Japs overlooking Port Moresby . . .

Then that stupid aussie General Blamey pushed the Japs back over the Owen Stanley range for no good reason other than to have a place at the surrender table in Tokyo Harbour . . .

Uhmmm . . . Fauxsmell do a fairly good job censoring American media . . . . . . and they are owned by aussie borne Rupert Murdoch . . . <so beware . . . the bunyips are coming to get you . . . >

 

[mack_the_knife]

Uhmmm . . . in reply to this unadulterated drivel . . . Oz and NZ have compulsory voting . . . it is considered a civic duty . . .

We don't get criminals elected to the Prime Minister's office . . . unlike the American Presidency in 2000 and 2004 . . .

Uhmmm . . . it was aussie "Chockos" (equivalent to American "National Guardsmen") that inflicted the first defeat on the japanese Army at Irarawa in the New Guinea highlands . . . they then fought a retreat over six weeks that stopped the Japs overlooking Port Moresby . . .

Then that stupid aussie General Blamey pushed the Japs back over the Owen Stanley range for no good reason other than to have a place at the surrender table in Tokyo Harbour . . .

Uhmmm . . . Fauxsmell do a fairly good job censoring American media . . . . . . and they are owned by aussie borne Rupert Murdoch . . . <so beware . . . the bunyips are coming to get you . . . >

That was my best adulterated drivel, too. I cut it 50/50 with truth. I'd consider it a good day when I can get the average of one of these threads up to 25% truth.

Well, we can agree that voting is a civic duty, at least. However forcing folk to do so is rather making it just a duty, isn't it?
Edited to ask - I'd still like to know what happens if you refuse.

Well, yeah, and 1992 and 1996, too, don't forget those good guys, though I'm sure you've got a Clinton bobble-head doll crazy-glued to your bedpost (the question is whether it's Hillary or Bill). I betcha, if you look hard enough, there's been some criminals in your top exec office. I mean, he was actually found guilty of perjury, so he IS a criminal. We've got lots of criminals in our political system, seems to attract them like flies to a turd. That does depress me a bit. But as they sit on both sides of our limited two-party fence, there's not a damn thing I can do about them. They've yet to run Cthulhu for President. On a side note, we've got so damn many stupid laws that you can't grow to age 21 without having commited a solid dozen felonies at various points. I do feel shame at much of that. Pretty much we're either criminals, or good at talking our way out of trouble.

I'll back off the argument of USA/Australia during the war, though. Australia has always been a staunch ally of the USA for as much of history as I can recall, and I will give them their kudos with being some tenacious MF'ers in battle.

Hmm.. Had to look up bunyip, we call them snipes here. As in snipe hunting.
I don't feel censored, unless you mean that they try like hell to prevent any positive adjectives be used when describing anything remotely conservative. Then yeah, I could believe there's censorship happening.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

(Sigh) and to think I took you off of ignore for that insightful look into your mind. Just where the hell did you start thinking I was from Australia? Or am I perhaps from THE Oz? You know Dorothy, Toto, that schtick?

Actually I was praying that you weren't from any location closer to America. We already have a raging Bruce Campbell-certified night-of-the-dumbasses epidemic here as evidenced by Bush's re-election.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Uhmmm . . . it was aussie "Chockos" (equivalent to American "National Guardsmen") that inflicted the first defeat on the japanese Army at Irarawa in the New Guinea highlands . . . they then fought a retreat over six weeks that stopped the Japs overlooking Port Moresby . . .

ROTFLMAO... his post was *ahem* chocko *ducks* full of errors, wasn't it?

 

[woody54]

Its not us, Fascists are nasty.

You're overuse of the word fascist, and misuse, frankly, is sad and shows an utter lack of regard for the English language. For your benefit, I'll post the true definition, so that you can, in the future, use it more appropriately:


1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

I see your flailing defensive patterns as weak as you understanding of the English language applied in the real world. You got the English language from the British Empire and you have forgotten how to spell half the words properly already and as for Aloominim

Perhaps I can enhance your understanding with a couple of references written in American. You will notice how frightengly close this is to totalitarianism. Why is it that all that the Nazis were vilified for are part and parcel of the bag of tricks of the Robber Baron Regime of Crony Corporatists that Bush fronts? There is a good reason the liar is held to ridicule by objective observers.

With the United States now engaged in belligerent nationalism and increasing hostility to the working classes, how will the next dictionary define fascism?

By William Marvel
http://www.interventionmag.com/cms/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1034

How interesting that American dictionaries initially greeted fascism as a positive reform movement. How perfectly typical that those same dictionaries turned hostile to the word immediately after our war with two fascist states.

The frightening part of the evolving definition of fascism is the need to add adjectives and details in order to maintain the pejorative flavor of the word without reflecting on the United States Government. As our country became more nationalistic, fascism had to be credited with “belligerent” nationalism; as the Republican Party became more dominant and intolerant of opposition, the fascist tendency to one-party suppression of opposition had to become the “forcible” suppression of opposition. Similarly, the most recent pre-George W. Bush definition of “totalitarianism” was “centralized control by an autocratic ruler or hierarchy regarded as infallible.”

Now the United States imposes its will with an undeniably belligerent nationalism. Now we see an alliance between government and big business that grows increasingly hostile to the working classes. Now we hear a constant clamor from the right to abridge the First Amendment. Now we are embarked on a new wave of militarism that permeates our colleges and our high schools. Now we have a president who refuses to acknowledge a mistake, and whose reverent followers view his word as law. What hurdles will the next dictionary have to leap in order to distinguish between fascism, totalitarianism, and our own government.



The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism
www.rense.com/general37/fascism.htm


BUSH-CHENEY 1984 Freedom is Fascism

.Racism - I go back to the fact that you've got 92% homogeniety in your nation of white people, so come back to me when you're white population is under 50% of the total, KK?

Again, where is it in the definition of Racism that there is a qualifying ratio that makes it disappear. I'd like you to balance your 50%'s of caucasians, arabs, latins, africans and asians just for a laugh.
Racism is an irrational type of hatred based on cultural/ethnic differences and your comment infers your need to check your own ethics.

It is a reality that education tends to push peoples perspective left rather than right, I can see why dumbfuck rightwinger warmongers are worried about all this Liberalisation/ freedom of speech crap impuning the purity of the strictly channelled official line from the Reichstag propraganda section. An old school republican is a communist under the Rove mindset.

Do the rightwing a favour. Dont argue for them, oh wait, just carry on

 

[woody54]

Well, yeah, and 1992 and 1996, too, don't forget those good guys, though I'm sure you've got a Clinton bobble-head doll crazy-glued to your bedpost (the question is whether it's Hillary or Bill).

I am merely an observer but objectively, Bill Clinton left a better legacy for the American people than is ever going to be possible now for the Bush presidency to do. In fact, it looks like Bush may be judged among the worst Presidents ever for his retarded policies devolving american society and its international credibility and leaving the State coffers destitute.
Bill Clinton enriched the country, managed a fragile peace well often in a very republican way, while holding off a vindictive, fruitless rightwing attack for 2 years on his background, that inevitably led to slipping up under pressure in the spotlight on his private activities by the overzealous scandal mongers who wanted to damage him at any price. He showed a human failing.
Bush has no such humanness in his callous disregard for the wellbeing of his constituency. They are merely the flock on which his cronies graze.
I forgot to mention as a politician Clinton was a master frontman , smart and witty, all of the attributes Bush hasnt bought to the WhiteHouse Being an affable rich pseudo rancher doesnt cut it with a public he wont mix with.

I expect good things from Hillary too because girlpower brings a less testosterone/ more sense decisionmaking ability to the organisation.

 

[Don K Dyck]

That was my best adulterated drivel, too. I cut it 50/50 with truth. I'd consider it a good day when I can get the average of one of these threads up to 25% truth.

Well, we can agree that voting is a civic duty, at least. However forcing folk to do so is rather making it just a duty, isn't it?
Edited to ask - I'd still like to know what happens if you refuse.

The Electoral Office sends you a "please explain" and if your answer is not satisfactory then you are taken to court and fined $50.

Well, yeah, and 1992 and 1996, too, don't forget those good guys, though I'm sure you've got a Clinton bobble-head doll crazy-glued to your bedpost (the question is whether it's Hillary or Bill). I betcha, if you look hard enough, there's been some criminals in your top exec office. I mean, he was actually found guilty of perjury, so he IS a criminal. We've got lots of criminals in our political system, seems to attract them like flies to a turd. That does depress me a bit. But as they sit on both sides of our limited two-party fence, there's not a damn thing I can do about them. They've yet to run Cthulhu for President.

On a side note, we've got so damn many stupid laws that you can't grow to age 21 without having commited a solid dozen felonies at various points. I do feel shame at much of that. Pretty much we're either criminals, or good at talking our way out of trouble.

Hmmm . . . there was this Greek Australian with dual citizenship that was scamming the immmigration laws. His victims got jack of his rip-offs and he resigned from Parliament before being found guilty and sent to jail for fraud. Can't remember his name though.

Hmmm . . . so most American kids have a criminal act initiation into the world of adulthood . . . that sounds like the Old West that Shrubya imagines . . .

I'll back off the argument of USA/Australia during the war, though. Australia has always been a staunch ally of the USA for as much of history as I can recall, and I will give them their kudos with being some tenacious MF'ers in battle.

The military cooperation between Oz and the US has really only been in place since WWII when Labor PM John Scullin recognised that the Brits had never been fair dinkum in their numerous pledges to defend Oz over the preceding 150 years.

The sinking of the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse by the Japs showed that the British plan to "defend" Oz was unworkable and fatally flawed. The Japs had sunk the Oz battleship HMAS Sydney before the official outbreak of war

Two warships to defend both the thousands of miles of coastline and at least six major coastal cities was just ridiculous to any objective observer, but such was the faith in the British Navy generated by 300 years domination of the High Seas.

Macarthur wisely ignored New Guinea with his island hopping strategy, hence Blamey foolishly "pushing the (starving and cannabilising) Japs back into the sea".

Vietnam was stupidity on a grand scale. Offical papers have shown that Liberal PM "Pigiron" Bob Menzies asked to join the Vietnam War in 1961. Aussies served there with distinction until 1972 when Labor PM Gough Whitlam was swept to power on a wave of anti-Vietnam sentiment.

Menzies was the great coward who resigned his Army Commission on the first day of WWI because he felt that he would be more important being a lawyer making money at home.

During the war period he won the Engineers Case, that reversed the established practice of States domination over the fledgling Federal government established in 1901.

Australia should never have been in Vietnam.

The ANZUS Treaty was a bulwark against Australia feeling an isolated outpost of Europe in an unfriendly foreign Asian world. It has been all one way traffic in favour of the US.

Australia needs to follow the NZ example and tell the US to bugger off. Then we could divert the enormous financing of defence contracts with unscrupulous AmeriKKKan suppliers to developing an aussie defence industry for the benefit of aussies.

It has been said that you should never fight against a Ghurka or a cranky aussie . . . even Shrubya recognises that the Aussie SAS units are the best in the world bar none.

Hmm.. Had to look up bunyip, we call them snipes here. As in snipe hunting.
I don't feel censored, unless you mean that they try like hell to prevent any positive adjectives be used when describing anything remotely conservative. Then yeah, I could believe there's censorship happening.

You don't feel censored because you accept and rely on the fact that the media news services know what is important and tell you.

But those same news services filter "news" to suit their masters. You are told on a "need to know" or "need to be influenced in such a way" basis.

heheheheh . . . so you found the "Common Bunyip" but missed the "Lesser Known Bunyip" also called a "Drop Bear". It is the Drop Bears that are the really dangerous ones . . . at night, they just drop out of a tree and "scrunch!!" that's it . . .

 

[woody54]

The Electoral Office sends you a "please explain" and if your answer is not satisfactory then you are taken to court and fined $50.

In NZ, the legal requirement is to be registered on the roll to vote and no compulsion to actually vote. Voter turnouts range in the 60 - 85% range.
The roll is more census documentation than anything to do with democracy.
Although it is illegal, it is used for targetting victims of marketing spam. It is has more complete details of adults than the phone book .

Hmmm . . . so most American kids have a criminal act initiation into the world of adulthood . . . that sounds like the Old West that Shrubya imagines . . .

Sounds like libertarian whining to me to cover those who cant abide by the rules of their locality.

I would seriously love to see statistics that show "most" American kids have a criminal record because I seriously doubt it myself.

The ANZUS Treaty was a bulwark against Australia feeling an isolated outpost of Europe in an unfriendly foreign Asian world. It has been all one way traffic in favour of the US.

Australia needs to follow the NZ example and tell the US to bugger off. Then we could divert the enormous financing of defence contracts with unscrupulous AmeriKKKan suppliers to developing an aussie defence industry for the benefit of aussies.

Any talk of quitting ANZUS would see a massive increase in "Muslim terrorism" against Australia to shift the public mood. It worked in NY.

NZ was lucky that holding to a sovereign right to choose what came into our own territory, forced the US to live with their power bluff of isolating us.
It was a sweet release really. We just escaped an abusive relationship but remained friends.

 

[Gringao]

Who the fuck has cumpulsory voting? THEY FORCE YOU TO VOTE? Now that's fucking funny. You really get quality decisions, I'm sure. What do they do to you if you refuse? I know, they force you to go live in the USA, right?.

Brazil has compulsory voting, I'm sure of that. Every citizen of voting age who is eligible has a little notebook he must bring to the polls to have it stamped when he casts his vote. There are times that it is checked (I don't recall when), and any discrepancy is cause for a fine.

Believe it or not...

Oh, and as for the Aussie military...badass all the way. After the first Bali bombing I mentioned it to a colleague of mine, an ex-SAS guy from the Black Country. He puckered his lips, looked thoughtfully at the floor for a minute and said, "Ya doon't fook...with the Aoos-trale-yuns."

 

[Lovelynice]

hmmm..... this has become a very interesting thread to read. Even the silly insulting posts by Mack_the_Knife (He writes a lot like Big_Drum, I notice; both write like they're screaming insults on an episode of Jerry Springer....although I think they'd be on opposite sides of the argument)

 

[Le Jacquelope]

hmmm..... this has become a very interesting thread to read. Even the silly insulting posts by Mack_the_Knife (He writes a lot like Big_Drum, I notice; both write like they're screaming insults on an episode of Jerry Springer....although I think they'd be on opposite sides of the argument)

I wouldn't call them insulting. Mack_the_Knife has a long, long way to go before s/he/it reaches that level.

 

[woody54]

Oh, and as for the Aussie military...badass all the way. After the first Bali bombing I mentioned it to a colleague of mine, an ex-SAS guy from the Black Country. He puckered his lips, looked thoughtfully at the floor for a minute and said, "Ya doon't fook...with the Aoos-trale-yuns."

It is not that surprising that there is a hard nut underlying culture in those bred from a colonial history of limited supplies and support from a homeland far away. It breeds a hardened survival instinct, self sufficiency and ingenuity when you only have yourself to depend on. Just look at the South African Boers as another example.

Only some of the Aussies are like Les Paterson, eh Don?

 

[Le Jacquelope]

It is not that surprising that there is a hard nut underlying culture in those bred from a colonial history of limited supplies and support from a homeland far away. It breeds a hardened survival instinct, self sufficiency and ingenuity when you only have yourself to depend on. Just look at the South African Boers as another example.

Only some of the Aussies are like Les Paterson, eh Don?

Don't forget Canada. Their military was feared by the Germans...

 

[ButterPixie]

The Indonesian military & police are behind so-called "Muslim terrorism" in Indonesia. This has just come out despite John Howard's Federal Government attempts to keep spreading the lie about "Muslim Terrorists" and al-Queda links. It was reported in a documentary produced by the nationally owned (Special Boardcasting Service) SBS-TV, but only hours later the transcript of the key interviews from the documentary was removed from their website.

The report by SBS-TV has been supported by "The Australian" newspaper as well. They take as believable, legitimate, the evidence as undeniable.


Inside Indonesia's War on Terror
Truth about the Bali Bombings
October 14, 2005 (snip)
.

Has any more of this become public since?

I'm just curious if anyone knows more.

 

[Elven_Blonde]

The Indonesian military & police are behind so-called "Muslim terrorism" in Indonesia. This has just come out despite John Howard's Federal Government attempts to keep spreading the lie about "Muslim Terrorists" and al-Queda links. It was reported in a documentary produced by the nationally owned (Special Boardcasting Service) SBS-TV, but only hours later the transcript of the key interviews from the documentary was removed from their website.

The report by SBS-TV has been supported by "The Australian" newspaper as well. They take as believable, legitimate, the evidence as undeniable.


Inside Indonesia's War on Terror
Truth about the Bali Bombings
October 14, 2005
SBS DATELINE - 2005-10-12

SBS DATELINE Archives - October 12, 2005
Editor's note
We bring to the attention of our readers the transcript of an SBS Australia program,
The controversial report which includes extracts from an interview with the former President of Indonesia Abdurrahman Wahid, points to the involvement of the Indonesian Military Intelligence and Police in the 2002 Bali bombing.

We also refer our readers to a report first published in early 2003, which focusses on the ties between Indonesian Military Intelligence (BIN) and Jemaah Islamiah (JI), which is alleged to have masterminded both the October 2002 and October 2005 Bali bombings.

The Transcript of this program has been removed from the archives of the SBS, Australia's Special Broadcasting Services.


Inside Indonesia's War on Terror Today - as you would almost certainly know - is the third anniversary of the first Bali bombing and our major report tonight provides an alarming twist to the ongoing terror campaign being waged in Indonesia. David O'Shea, a long-time "Indonesia-watcher", reports that where terrorism is concerned in that country - with its culture of corruption within the military, the police, the intelligence services and politics itself - all is never quite what it seems. REPORTER: David O’Shea
When the second Bali bomb exploded, Australia once again found itself on the front line in the war on terror. But for Indonesians, this was simply the latest in a long line of atrocities. They have born the brunt of hundreds of attacks over the years, most of them unreported in the West. Once again Australia and Indonesia joined forces in the hunt for the Bali killers.
SUSILO BAMBANG YUDHOYONO, INDONEASIAN PREIDENT: We are determined to continuously fight terrorism in Indonesia with an effective global, regional and international cooperation.
JOHN HOWARD, AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER: Tragic incidents such as this so far from driving apart the people of Australia and Indonesia would only bring us closer together.
This show of unity is impressive and it plays well to Australian audiences but many Indonesians don't see it that way.
JOHN MEMPI, SECURITY AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST (Translation): Why this endless violence? Why are there acts of terrorism year in, year out? Regimes change, governments change, but violence continues. Why? Because there is a sort of shadow state in this country. A state within a state ruling this country.
For seven years I've reported from every corner of this vast nation and seen first hand the havoc that terrorists wreak. Tonight I want to tell you a very different story about Indonesia's war on terror. It contains many disturbing allegations even from a former president.
ABDURRAHMAN WAHID, FORMER INDONESIAN PRESIDENT: The Australians if they get the truth, I think it's a grave mistake.
REPORTER: What do you mean?
ABDURRAHMAN WAHID: Yeah, who knows that the owners to do this, to do that -- orders to do this, to do that came from within our own forces, not from the culprits, from the fundamentalist people.
(1) TERRORISM - THE CASH COW:
Indonesia's police are doing very nicely, thank you very much, out of the war on terror. They now have all the latest equipment, courtesy of the millions of dollars pouring in from the West. The money ensures the world's most populous Muslim nation remains on side in the fight against terrorism. Mastering all of this new technology represents a steep learning curve for the Indonesian police. Unfortunately today they forget to set up the X-ray machine properly.
POLICE (Translation): Is the film in?
POLICE 2 (Translation): I haven't put it in yet.
Luckily there's an old print lying around from a previous exercise. Because of the war on terror, American and Australian support for the Indonesian police has never been stronger. During Dai Bachtiar's 5-year reign as police chief, Indonesia endured countless act of terror including three major ones - in Bali, then the Marriott Hotel and the Australian Embassy in Jakarta. These massive blasts might have forced the resignation of any other senior official but Dai Bachtiar managed to survive with the backing of powerful friends at home and abroad.
POLICE CHIEF (Translation): I met Paul Wolfowitz.
In Indonesia's parliament earlier this year, I found the police chief boasting about how he gets the star treatment when he visits Washington.
POLICE CHIEF (Translation): I went to Washington, to the White Hosue, to the West Wing. I spoke to Colin Powell in his office. I went to the Pentagon, I met the director of the CIA, the director of the FBI, I met them all.
Indonesia's police are in charge of the war on terror. Years of human rights abuse by the Indonesian military, or TNI, mean it's now out of favour in Washington, but it seems the police can do no wrong.
POLICE CHIEF (Translation): I asked Powell. "You say the TNI has to reform, don't the police have to as well?" Building trust takes time.
Many Indonesians would find the idea of trusting the police laughable. It has long been regarded as one of the most corrupt and incompetent institutions in the country. Former president, Abdurrahman Wahid sums up what many people here belief.
ABDURRAHMAN WAHID: All of them are liars.
REPORTER: Just to be clear, you have your doubts about the police ability to investigate properly all of this?
ABDURRAHMAN WAHID: Oh, yes.
But none of this seems to worry Indonesia's allies in the war on terror.
POLICE (Translation): Have you just got back?
DAI-BACHTIAR, POLICE CHIEF (Translation): I see this man a lot.
POLICE (Translation): Were you in America? Did you get any more money?
DAI-BACHTIAR (Translation): 10 million. We get big bucks. We got 50 million all up. Sure. They keep asking about 88.
That's Detachment 88, the police counter-terror unit which receives a great deal of the international aid, including substantial assistance from Australia. Like the military, Detachment 88 is controversial. Its members stand accused of repeatedly using torture in interrogation of suspects. But these allegations don't seem to even raise an eyebrow.
DAI-BACHTIAR (Translation): The Secretary-General of Interpol came to visit Aceh. I met him. He said our police were dealing with terrorism in a professional manner. 500 million euros. For the police. Long term. So far I've received directly 500 from Denmark. They gave 5, but 500 all up. The Dutch gave 2.
The money is flowing like water but outside the chamber, unrelated to the anti-terror funding, is a scene that should make donors think twice. A man from the Religious Affairs Commission sitting next door counts cash to be distributed amongst voting politicians. Call it corruption or even the trickle down effect, but it's this kind of informal funds distribution which keeps the wheels turning in the Indonesian economy.
DAI-BACHTIAR (Translation): Well now, for example, the other day I got 2 million from Holland... From America... it was 50. Is it 50 already? You know how much the army got? 600. Then they had to get involved.
With all the cash flowing about, some politicians want to stay as close as possible to Dai Bachtiar.
POLITICIAN (Translation): Isn't our police chief great? That's obvious.
With the cash cow growing fatter by the day, some analysts even suggest the police now have too much to gain from the war on terror.
JOHN MEMPI (Translation): But why is there always this worry about bombings? This subservience to foreigners, this paranoia about bombs. You must help us with money, with equipment and training, so that we can do something. We need funds to combat these terrorists. And to convince the foreigners bombings do happen. Indeed there are acts of terrorism in Indonesia but done by "terrorists" in inverted commas.
(2) A TERRORIST ON THE PAYROLL:
To most Australians terrorism in Indonesia means Jemaah Islamiah. Abu Bakar Bashir, Dr Azahari and Noordin Mohammed Top have become household names and we're led to believe they're the masterminds behind every atrocity. But there's another side to the JI story that Australia hasn't heard and it's part of the extraordinary family history of this man.
LAMKARUNA PUTRA (Translation): This is Tengku Fauzi Hasbi after he was released. He returned to working and supporting his family.
Lamkaruna Putra's father was an Acehnese separatist leader descended from a long line of Acehnese fighters. He went on to become a key figure in Jemaah Islamiah. Fauzi Hasbi who used the alias Abu Jihad was in contact with Osama bin Laden's deputy. He lived for many years in the house next door to Abu Bakar Bashir in Malaysia and was very close to JI operations chief Hambali. Umar Abduh is an Islamist convicted of terrorism and jailed for 10 years under the Suharto regime. He belonged to a group that attacked police stations and hijacked a Garuda flight to Bangkok. He remembers Fauzi Hasbi as a hardliner who traded arms was willing to commit acts of violence.
UMAR ABDUH (Translation): Fauzi Hasbi is known in the Islamic movement as someone who, from the beginning, has supported the Jihad as the struggle of the Muslim people, aside from his background in the Free Ache Movement.
Fauzi Hasbi was so relaxed amongst the militants, and they with him, that he even took his son to a critical meeting in Kuala Lumpur in January 2000 as JI was preparing for its violent campaign. The attendance list was a who's who of accused terrorists.
LAMKARUNA PUTRA (Translation): There was someone from MILF in Mindanao, his name was Ustad Abu Rela, commander of the Abu Sayyaf. Ustad Abdul Fatah from Patani was there. People from Sulawesi and West Java came to the meeting. The organisation was managed by Hambali. Rabitah means organisation. It linked Islamic organisations.
REPORTER (Translation): So Hambali was chairman?
LAMKARUNA PUTRA (Translation): Yes, Hambali chaired it.
Hambali and co would have known their colleague Fauzi Hasbi had been captured in 1978 by this Indonesian military special forces unit but they wouldn't have known that he became a secret agent for Indonesian military intelligence. The commanding officer that caught him was Syafrie Syamsuddin, now a general and one of Indonesia's key military intelligence figures. These documents obtained by Dateline prove beyond doubt that Fauzi Hasbi had a long association with the military. This 1990 document, signed by the chief of military intelligence in North Sumatra, authorised Fauzi Hasbi to undertake a special job. And this 1995 internal memo from military intelligence HQ in Jakarta was a request to use brother Fauzi Hasbi to spy on Acehnese separatist, not only in Indonesia but in Malaysia and Sweden. And then this document, from only three years ago, assigned him the job of special agent for BIN, the national intelligence agency. Security analyst John Mempi says Fauzi Hasbi alias Abu Jihad played a crucial role within JI in its early years.
JOHN MEMPI (Translation): The first Jemaah Islamiyah congress in Bogor was facilitated by Abu Jihad, after Abu Bakar Bashir returned from Malaysia. We can see that Abu Jihad played an important role, he was later found to be an intelligence agent. So an intelligence agent has been facilitating the radical Islamic movement.
The extraordinary story of Fauzi Hasbi raises many important questions about JI and the Indonesian authorities. Why didn't they smash the terror group in its infancy? Do they still have agents in the organisation? And what information, if any, have they had in advance about the recent deadly spate of terror attacks? The Indonesian intelligence chief refused Dateline's request for an interview and dead men tell no tales. The man who held all the secrets, Abu Jihad was disembowelled in a mysterious murder in early 2003, just after he was exposed as a military agent. His son, Lamkaruna Putra died in this plane crash last month.
(3) PROMOTING TERRORISM:
Fauzi Hasbi's death led to a flurry of speculation about shadowy intelligence links to Indonesia's terror networks.
UMAR ABDUH (Translation): So there is not a single Islamic group, either in the movement or the political groups that is not controlled by Intel. Everyone does what they say.
Umar Abduh says his terrorist group was incited to violence after infiltrators showed a letter saying Muslim clerics would be assassinated.
UMAR ABDUH (Translation): There is a document stating that the Muslim leaders would be executed, we as a younger generation were immediately angered. Damn it, this is not right, we have to kill all those Cabinet members and military leaders, that was our plan.
And he's not the only one who says he was used by intelligence agents. Another convicted terrorist is Timsar Zubil who exploded three bombs in Sumatra in 1978. Although no-one was killed, he paid a heavy price.
TIMSAR ZUBIL (Translation): At first I was sentenced to death, it was changed to a life sentence, I served 22years.
Zubil now believes he was set up by former president Suharto's intelligence agency.
TIMSAR ZUBIL (Translation): We may have deliberately been allowed to grow in such a way, that we young people who were very emotional, were provoked into committing illegal acts.
REPORTER (Translation): Who let this happen?
TIMSAR ZUBIL (Translation): The ones who had the authority to ban us, in this case the ones in power, the Suharto regime. I have only started thinking of this recently, but at the time I was active, I didn’t think it through.
After Zubil was captured, beaten and tortured, something remarkable occurred. The authorities made up a provocative name for his group - Komando Jihad.
TIMSAR ZUBIL (Translation): It hadn’t occurred to us to use that name, but they told us that was to be the name of our organisation. We had no plans to use the name Komando Jihad. They told us to just accept it for the time being and if we wanted to deny it later in court, that was up to us. But it made no difference to the court, they insisted that the name was indeed ours.
(4) STATE SPONSORED TERROR:
Indonesia's recent history of terrorist attacks began with a deadly campaign that unfolded on Christmas Eve 2000. Bombs exploded almost simultaneously at 18 sites, mostly churches, across six provinces, 19 people died and 120 were injured. Jemaah Islamiah took the blame. It was the first real mention of the group in Australia. But Indonesians had another theory - they suspected the military, the only organisation with the capacity to pull off an operation of this scale, a full two years before the first Bali bomb. The respected news magazine Tempo even splashed the allegation on its front cover as part of a special investigation. The most revealing information in the report related to the bomber's network operating in Medan, North Sumatra. The man convicted of making the bombs in Medan is somewhere behind these prison walls. Our repeated requests to interview Edi Sugiarto over many months have been ignored by the Indonesian authorities. Guilty or not, reputable sources claim he was so severely tortured before his trial he would have admitted to anything. But it's clear he wasn't acting alone. The Tempo investigation included telephone records revealing sensational information of direct links between the bombers and military intelligence. The records also show that Fauzi Hasbi, the military intelligence agent in Jemaah Islamiah who we mentioned earlier, was at the centre of the plot. He had spoken to Edi Sugiarto, the bomb maker, seven times and had also called a businessman well connected with the military 35 times. That businessman in turn rang a Kopassus special forces intelligence officer 15 times and the officer had called the businessman 56 times. With Edi Sugiarto in jail, all further investigation ceased and five years on, sources in Medan are too afraid to talk. The trail has gone stone cold.
(5) TERROR IN TENTENA:
George Aditjondro is an early riser. As Indonesia's leading researcher into corruption in high places there never seem to be enough hours in the day. For two years he's been investigating a terror campaign in Poso, Central Sulawesi. His research reveals that terror in Indonesia is much more complex than we are led to believe.
GEORGE ADITJONDRO: There is a mafia, a corruption mafia in Poso who were defending the interests of themselves because if the corruption leaked, the corruption mafia could be exposed, that means the end of their career and also the end of their additional income.
Aditjondro says this corrupt network of local government officials, police and others is using terror to protect a local racquet in Central Sulawesi.
GEORGE ADITJONDRO: Between corruption and terror, there is a very close link because those who were carrying out the terror were paid with corruption money.
Central Sulawesi had just emerged from years of conflict before the latest outrage on May 28 this year. In the predominantly Christian town of Tentena, 60km to the south of Poso, two bombs left 23 people dead. A blast that claimed more victims than the second Bali attack, but received scant coverage outside Indonesia. The first foreign journalist to arrive on the scene, without any evidence at all reported Jemaah Islamiah was to blame for the attack and then promptly flew back to Jakarta. Like the latest Bali bombs, the two bombs that exploded here were full of shrapnel, designed to kill and maim. The first one went off at 8.05 in the morning when the market is busiest.
WOMAN (Translation): This is a thoroughfare, people are always passing, people who want to go there pass here.
This woman is one of thousands of Christian refugees who found sanctuary in Tentena during sectarian violence that cost hundreds of lives in recent years.
WOMAN (Translation): I’m still traumatised. We were chased out of our villages and came here, but it is not safe here either.
A second bomb blew 10 minutes later around 200m away on the other side of the market. Reverend Rinaldy Damanik says it was placed and timed to cause maximum casualties.
REVEREND RINALDY DAMANIK (Translation): The bits of metal in the bomb flew as far as that church. What’s really going on? They showed they can do it under the police’s noses. That’s the police station, imagine this happening in front of the police station.
Reverend Damanik is a powerful figure in this Christian stronghold. For years he defended his community as Islamic fighters swarmed in to wage jihad. I first met him at Christmas in 2001 after villages all around Tentena were razed. He was convinced the army was behind the violence and had even left a calling card.
REVEREND RINALDY DAMANIK (Translation): This is an ammunition box that we found at the time of the attacks in Sepe. It is clearly labelled, Department of Defence, Republic of Indonesia. 1400 pieces of 5.56mm calibre munitions. This means it was meant for M-16s.
George Aditjondro says that in every Indonesian hotspot, the army foments trouble by funding and arming both sides. In the case of Central Sulawesi, both Muslim and Christian militia.
GEORGE ADITJONDRO: So the money do not have to come from rich people like Osama bin Laden and the weapons doesn't have to come from southern Philippines or from other exotic places but is actually coming from the official sources and that is why I am saying that the kind of terrorism which we see in Indonesia is home grown terrorism. It's a kind of duel function or triple function of the armed forces.
The late reverand Agustina Lumentut told me in 2001 that the Indonesian military was using proxy armies to do their dirty work.
THE LATE REVEREND AGUSTINA LUMENTUT: It is for sure, for sure that the army is behind the jihad, or in front of jihad, yeah. No other interpretation.
It was proved beyond all doubt that one of the extremist groups, the Laskar Jihad, was supplied, transported and incited by the central government to go on its murderous spree.
THE LATE REVEREND AGUSTINA LUMENTUT: Who dare among them to say "Stop going that." Because they have reason for doing that, they are registered officially by the government, the central government.
Indonesia's President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono is applauded in Australia as a moderate Muslim leading the fight against terror in Indonesia. But as the influential coordinating minister for politics and security, he chose not to stop the Laskar Jihad and was even supporting them.
SUSILO BAMBANG YUDOYONO: They also play a role in defending truth and justice that is expected by Muslims in Indonesia. For me, as far as what they are doing is legal and not violating law, then this is OK. This was a ridiculous statement.
Yudhoyono was well aware of the carnage that was under way. Since 2001 things had improved somewhat, as Reverend Damanik tells these politicians from Jakarta visiting after the May 28 bombs. But local leaders are afraid terrorism is being used to derail reconciliation between Muslims and Christians.
REVEREND RINALDY DAMANIK (Translation): The wounds are very deep but they can be endured. But the question is, what is happening to this country? People can’t work because they’re always on their guard, what can we achieve when we’re like that? What’s happening to our country? We need to think about this, but it’s hard to answer right now.
With weapons handed in and a peace deal holding up well, Reverend Damanik's former sworn enemy is also very suspicious about the times of the bomb in May. Muslim leader Adnan Arsan wonders whether the attack was designed to prevent the army from leaving.
ADNAN ARSAN (Translation): Just when a security unit’s work is over and someone says “We’re going home and I hope there’s no more trouble…”Just as they are being recalled there’s another explosion and more killing.
In the days following the blast, all the big names in Indonesian security and intelligence descend on the area. Central Sulawesi police commander Arianto Sutardi tells me the investigation is going well.
REPORTER (Translation): Sir, have you any idea who the perpetrators are?
ARIANTO SUTARDI, POLICE COMMANDER (Translation): We’ve arrested some already and we’re pursuing others.
Then national police chief Dai Bachtiar, the man receiving all the foreign cash arrives to assert his authority. After less than one hour on the ground, he's made his assessment.
DAI-BACHTIAR (Translation): We all hope… incidents like this are criminal acts, we need to expose the perpetrators and put them on trial. People entrust this task to the security forces.
Considering the evidence of corruption here and the police chief's record of enforcing justice, that's unlikely. George Aditjondro's research has uncovered a scam involving local police who have looted up to $2 million for the resettlement of refugees.
GEORGE ADITJONDRO: You can see a cabal involving both the district head, the acting district head at the time, certain police agents, certain people within the department of social affairs and their friends. They were carrying out both the corruption as well as using the corruption money to pay the terrorists. So you can see we are talking about home grown terrorism paid by home grown corruption.
He says the May 28 Tentena blasts were an attempt to stop honest police uncovering more about their scam.
GEORGE ADITJONDRO: You can say that the bombing can be seen as the apex, the ultimate development of the kind of terror which they were committing. It had gone as far as paying police to decapitate a village head man, the village head man of Pinadapa.
The corrupt and murderous cabal identified by Aditjondro is now suing him and the police seem to be in no hurry at all to follow up the leads as he identified. Instead on his departure the police chief Dai Bachtiar offers another bland statement about the certain groups responsible for the violence.
DAI-BACHTIAR (Translation): The situation seemed so promising but certain groups have taken advantage of it to carry out actions such as bombings, which of course will again cause fear and anxiety.
As Dai Bachtiar's plane heads back to Jakarta, more bigwigs arrive. Syamsir Siregar is the recently appointed head of the national intelligence agency BIN. His appearance is supposed to inspire confidence in this investigation. But BIN has a long-standing dismal reputation in Indonesia for dirty tricks. The agency is currently fending off damning evidence that it was behind the poisoning of Indonesia's best known human rights campaigner, Munir Said Thalib. As I reported earlier this year, Munir was given a lethal dose of arsenic in his orange juice on a Garuda flight to Europe. On the Tentena bomb investigation, Siregar has nothing to say.
REPORTER (Translation): If you don’t want to talk about this, what about the Munir case? How’s the internal investigation into the involvement of…
SYAMSIR SIREGAR (Translation): You speak good Indonesian!
REPORTER (Translation): If any rogue elements are involved, what will you do? …
SYAMSIR SIREGAR (Translation): We’ll take action. I’ve given orders to act against rogue elements.
Rogue elements indeed. Travelling with him is Timbul Silaen, he was police chief during the carnage in East Timor. He was acquitted of crimes against humanity, one of several commanders who escaped justice for orchestrating the bloodshed. Now he's officially retired from the police force. So what on earth is Timbul Silaen doing here with the new chief of intelligence? Is he just along for the ride or is he now on the intelligence payroll? Whatever the answer, the continuing role of these same old state terrorists is truly disturbing. It's no wonder the locals are now deeply suspicious of anyone sent in to protect them. While the police can claim some success arresting terrorists in Java, in this region results are few and far between. After years of state sponsored terror, no-one wants to help the authorities. This woman jokes that fear of talking to the police has become a popular movement.
WOMAN (Translation): The tight lipped movement. People don’t want to be witnesses. They are scared so they shut up, if they see something they deny it, they’re scared.
The first real break in the investigation comes a week after the attack and leads police to, of all places, Poso prison. Incredible as it may sound, a police forensics team finds evidence the bomb was manufactured in the workshop, used for prisoner rehabilitation.
POLICE (Translation): It’s a workshop for teaching them welding skills.
The fact that the bomb may have been assembled in a state-run facility further bolsters the central thrust of Aditjondro's remarkable research. That there is high level involvement in terror in Sulawesi.
GEORGE ADITJONDRO: What we have found out is just the tip of the iceberg. It shows a permanent pattern which has been going on for the last five years.
For the record, the authorities reject his allegations.
(6) QUESTIONS ABOUT BALI:
Two weeks after the second Bali attack and despite plenty of help from the Australian Federal Police, Indonesian authorities are still pursuing the culprits. But a familiar pattern has emerged. Asia's most wanted men, the so- called masters of disguise, Dr Azahari and Noordin Top have been named as the masterminds. And once again everyone is insinuating Jemaah Islamiah is behind the bombs. That may eventually be proved correct, but so far no evidence has been produced, at least publicly, to back that claim. As we've shown tonight, after enduring years of state-sponsored terror, it's no wonder many Indonesians question what they're being told about this latest atrocity.
GEORGE ADITJONDRO: You hear again the sources - the statements that it was carried out by Azahari and Noordin Mohammed Top and a radical Muslim groups behind it. Although what I heard is this actually shows a rivalry, internal rivalry within the armed forces.
George Aditjondro didn't provide any evidence to back his allegation, but theories like this are hard to write off just yet. Former president Abdurrahman Wahid tried in vain to rein the military and it cost him the presidency. In 2003 just after the Marriott Hotel blast, he was clearly frustrated by foreign intelligence claims that JI were to blame.
ABDURRAHMAN WAHID: They can say whatever they want but we are here, we live here, we know them. But I won't say who.
REPORTER: But you know who it is, you think?
ABDURRAHMAN WAHID: No, no, I don't know. When I said that I meant we cannot know - we cannot know the truth about that. That is the problem always.
REPORTER: But that bomb has been blamed also on Jemaah Islamiah.
ABDURRAHMAN WAHID: Yeah, I know but you don't have any kind of proof. The proof is that the bomb is similar to that belong to the police. It's a problem for us then. Every bomb there until now it belongs to the government.
Today is the third anniversary of the first Bali attack that saw 202 people killed, including 88 Australians. Abdurrahman Wahid now has questions about that attack as well. While some regard him as an Eccentric, he is the former president and is often described as the conscience of the nation, revered by tens of millions of moderate Muslims. As such, he's one of only a few people publicly prepared to canvass the unthinkable - that Indonesian authorities may have had a hand in the Bali atrocity. He believes that the plan for the second, massive at the Sari Club, which caused the majority of casualties, was hatched way above the head of uneducated villagers like Amrozi.
ABDURRAHMAN WAHID: Amrozi was involved in the lighter bomb. That's a problem always. Even though I agree that he should be given a stiff punishment, but it doesn't mean that he is involved. No, no, no.
REPORTER: So you believe that the Bali bombers had no idea that there was a second bomb?
ABDURRAHMAN WAHID: Yeah, precisely.
REPORTER: And who would you suggest planted the second bomb?
ABDURRAHMAN WAHID: Well, it looks like the police.
REPORTER: The police?
ABDURRAHMAN WAHID: Or the armed forces, I don't know.
Wahid's speculation is chilling and again there's no evidence to support it. But there's no doubt that he's a barometer of how many Indonesians view the whole terror campaign.
(7) BACK TO THE FUTURE:
This ceremony in July marked a significant moment in the evolution of Indonesia's fight against terrorism. The nation's most senior police watched as their chief, Dai Bachtiar, was replaced by General Sutanto, touted as a cleanskin. Following his swearing in, he made an impressive start - launching a high profile anti-drug campaign and promising to crack down on rampant corruption within the police force. But for now, he's getting familiar with the rhetoric required for the job.
GENERAL SUTANTO (Translation): We are sharing experience with other countries in order to eradicate the terrorism.
But it's not the experience sharing with other countries that matters, like every police chief before him, he will only ever play second fiddle to the army and will struggle to control the cabal of rogue elements who still wield massive power here. Abdurrahman Wahid says that no policeman would dare to properly investigate repeated allegations that their big brothers in the military are involved in the terror campaign.
ABDURRAHMAN WAHID: They know it's against see, what they do - was against you see, several, you know, senior officers, even of the police itself. So they don't want to be involved.
REPORTER: Because?
ABDURRAHMAN WAHID: Of the fear.
REPORTER: The fear of what? Of the senior officers that are involved in this?
ABDURRAHMAN WAHID: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
At the moment it's the police who are receiving all the equipment, support and training to take on the terrorists. At the opening of this multimillion dollar training facility, which is part funded by Australia, the Indonesians were keen to show off their skills. The war on terror has brought the two nations closer together, but any Australian concerns about corruption and human rights in this new partnership appear to have been put aside for now. But the Indonesian police's leading role in the fight against terror may be about to change anyway. In the wake of the latest attack in Bali, President Yudhoyono has taken steps to rehabilitate the military's tarnished name and bring them back into the counter terror drive. For those who risked their lives opposing Suharto's brutal military, it's a disturbing thought. That the retired general, President Yudhoyono, known in Indonesia by his initials Sbyeah, may be ushering in a return to those bad old days.
GEORGE ADITJONDRO: Now, General SBY, himself, he doesn't like to be called general SBY, he likes to be called Dr SBY has made the statement that the military is ready to help, to assist the police in chasing the terrorists. In other words, the military is looking for an alibi for a reason to reconsolidate their power as during the Suharto period.

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.

Staged terror attacks. Govts often do this when they plan to oppress the people. Democracies are no exception. Look at 9/11 and how plainly that was done by some powermongers in the US govt.

 

[Acanthus]

Hah, this is what we get when i own her in the 9/11 thead, 5 more threads...

 

[Lovelynice]

Has any more of this become public since?

I'm just curious if anyone knows more.

I believe so, and I'll try and check.

 

[Lovelynice]

Hah, this is what we get when i own her in the 9/11 thead, 5 more threads...

Did you reeeeeally? (taking that you are referring to me as the creator of this old thread)

The posts you refer to, say otherwise, as below;

-----------------------------------------------------------------

LMAO, you JUST SAID like 5 posts ago that none of the other towers were damaged.

You just got owned to a rediculous level and shrugged it off.

Off to find WTC7 photos, lets see how many fucking seconds it takes me.

No, I did not.
This is what I stated...

28th: The towers fell into neat little piles - This one keeps coming up, they didnt, you can watch the video footage youself of the collapses... ALL of the surrounding buildings were damaged and needed repair to different extents.

Sources and links to support this claim of yours? I'm sure you can't prove it in regards WTC 7.

You notice that? I was referring to WTC 7 falling into a neat pile. I didn't mention any other of the WTC buildings doing so.

It appears you are trying another bit of your typical bullshit again....

Common aspects of the Coincidence Theorist

1. Gullibly believes that buildings ALWAYS collapse symetrically into their own footprint, on every occassion.
2. Ignores all scientific evidence and commonsense which disputes (1) above.
3. Believes that winning the lottery four weeks in a row is easy, just like Arab hijackings succeeding in incapacitating the entire crew of a passenger jet before even a single crew member can press in the hijack alert code into any one of the keypads of the airphones or the FMC on the plane, not just once, but four times.
4. Believes that cellphones work in aircraft flying six miles up, in a plane flying at over 500mph, with a continuous long lasting connection - just by sheer luck!.
5. Allots superhuman powers to Arab hijackers, such as being able to incapacitate the entire crew of an aircraft before even a single crew member can type in the hijack alert code at any of several places on the plane, and the Arab hijackers succeed in this every time!
6. Key steps in argument rely on pejoratives, insults, and dodging of scientific studies by the excuse of saying "But this is not supporting the official version, therefore it's wrong!".
7. Complains about the use of 'common sense'; and completely ignores scientifically verifiable facts
8. Constant use of strawman arguments, assigning statements and arguments to the opposing person which have never been stated by said person, simply because these fictions are easier to argue with than what the other person actually said.
9. Ignores any evidence or scientific study which does not support the official version of events.
10. Relies on junk science based on blatantly erroneous and easily disputed statements of alleged fact.
11. Enjoys ZERO credibility whenever they make a statement, because their sources are using junk science as in (10) above.
12. Rebuttals provided by experts are ignored whenever they do not support the official version of events. In other words, whatever the government says is "right", whatever anyone else says that is contrary to this is "wrong".
13. The coincidences and excuses to support them grow in the telling, and can swell to mind-boggling hallucinatory levels until the likelihood of the official version of events occurring becomes astronomically absurd.
14. The coincidence theorist attempts to use the false ascribing to the other person of more impossible beliefs than their own in order to make their own impossible coincidences seem more likely by comparison.

There you have it. The actions of a 9/11 "Arabs did it" coincidence theorist in a NUT shell.

It looks like the one who got "owned" was you as you tried making up LIES yet again about what other people have stated.

 

[Lovelynice]

Acanthus, caught out lying again, runs away and refuses to reply. Typical

 

[unregistered]

 

[Lovelynice]

We landed on the moon?

Which one?

Your attempt to imply that I believe what you are obviously implying is doomed to failure....

Common aspects of the Coincidence Theorist

1. Gullibly believes that buildings ALWAYS collapse symetrically into their own footprint, on every occassion.
2. Ignores all scientific evidence and commonsense which disputes (1) above.
3. Believes that winning the lottery four weeks in a row is easy, just like Arab hijackings succeeding in incapacitating the entire crew of a passenger jet before even a single crew member can press in the hijack alert code into any one of the keypads of the airphones or the FMC on the plane, not just once, but four times.
4. Believes that cellphones work in aircraft flying six miles up, in a plane flying at over 500mph, with a continuous long lasting connection - just by sheer luck!.
5. Allots superhuman powers to Arab hijackers, such as being able to incapacitate the entire crew of an aircraft before even a single crew member can type in the hijack alert code at any of several places on the plane, and the Arab hijackers succeed in this every time!
6. Key steps in argument rely on pejoratives, insults, and dodging of scientific studies by the excuse of saying "But this is not supporting the official version, therefore it's wrong!".
7. Complains about the use of 'common sense'; and completely ignores scientifically verifiable facts
8. Constant use of strawman arguments, assigning statements and arguments to the opposing person which have never been stated by said person, simply because these fictions are easier to argue with than what the other person actually said.
9. Ignores any evidence or scientific study which does not support the official version of events.
10. Relies on junk science based on blatantly erroneous and easily disputed statements of alleged fact.
11. Enjoys ZERO credibility whenever they make a statement, because their sources are using junk science as in (10) above.
12. Rebuttals provided by experts are ignored whenever they do not support the official version of events. In other words, whatever the government says is "right", whatever anyone else says that is contrary to this is "wrong".
13. The coincidences and excuses to support them grow in the telling, and can swell to mind-boggling hallucinatory levels until the likelihood of the official version of events occurring becomes astronomically absurd.
14. The coincidence theorist attempts to use the false ascribing to the other person of more impossible beliefs than their own in order to make their own impossible coincidences seem more likely by comparison.

There you have it. The actions of a 9/11 "Arabs did it" coincidence theorist in a NUT shell.