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Trump fucks up again. Ukraine negotiation goes sideways

I wonder if this dust up is not the best thing that could happen for Ukraine. The rest of Europe is tired of Trumps antics and maybe will stand up to Putin. NATO countries have missiles and bombers also. They need to give Putin a time line to get out of invaded territory or we will level your cities.
 
BabyBoomer50s said:
How much and how long will they keep doing that? Been three years. Victory is obviously not imminent by any stretch.
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Not for Russia, either. And Ukraine can outlast Russia. Ukraine would run out of troops first -- but Russia's economy is close to collapse.
 
RobDownSouth said:
How long would YOU fight to protect your home and family?

Hmmm?
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Irrelevant. It’s not about me, my home or my family. It’s about how much will countries like Germany, France and the UK will invest to secure Ukraine and their continent from Russian aggression. The war has been going on for three years. There are no signs of an imminent victory. This could go on for many years.
 
Fuzzy1975 said:
Russia's economy can't hold up much more. Obviously Ukraine on its own can't beat Russia in a war of attrition. But in a war of finance, of course they can. Interest rates in Russia are at 21%. Inflation is at 24%. They have burned through their reserves of international currency. You're a pretty dumb guy, but I think even you can read that economic picture.
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How much longer do you think Putin can hang on to power? Do you think he’s at risk of being voted out of office? Get serious.
 
Politruk said:
Not for Russia, either. And Ukraine can outlast Russia. Ukraine would run out of troops first -- but Russia's economy is close to collapse.
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Russia is still using World War 2 infantry tactics (mass waves of infantry) which can eventually overwhelm an enemy but often has Russian casualty rates of 75%. Willingness to lose 3 of your experienced infantry soldiers to kill 1 of the enemy soldiers cannot be maintained at that rate for any long period of time (the Russians did this against the Germans for almost 3 years in WW2).

Russia had enormous success with guided missiles the first year of the invasion. Then Ukraine noticed something unusual....Russia was firing their vast stockpile of first generation 1990s vintage 'barely' guided missiles....saving 95% of their second- and third-generaion missiles for defense against NATO on its western flank and China on the right flank. Ukraine reversed engineered the relatively ancient Russian guidance system on its missiles and came up with an electronic countermeasure that caused 15 out of 16 missiles to blow up in the air. (That's still a hit rate of 7 percent or so, but much improved from the previous rate when 4 out of 5 Russian missiles hit targets0.
 
Politruk said:
Not for Russia, either. And Ukraine can outlast Russia. Ukraine would run out of troops first -- but Russia's economy is close to collapse.
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Put a number on it. How many months or years does this go on before it ends under the status quo?
 
BabyBoomer50s said:
Irrelevant. It’s not about me, my home or my family. It’s about how much will countries like Germany, France and the UK will invest to secure Ukraine and their continent from Russian aggression. The war has been going on for three years. There are no signs of an imminent victory. This could go on for many years.
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France and Germany stated earlier this week that if the Trump mineral deal fell through (which it ultimately did), they'd be more than happy to purchase the massive lithium and cobalt reserves in Ukraine. Poland is Ukraine's biggest trading partner now and depends on the export/import pipeline.

I believe your view is a tad myopic....that somehow "Ukraine would fall without continuing US support". I don't see support wavering from those three countries above and the UK seems pretty committed in supporting Ukraine (KIng Charles even made a rare comment on a political event when he criticized the Russian invasion).

In short, if the US steps down, other countries seem primed to step up. All the US is ceding is its leadership role, which has been in something of a vacuum for the past month or so anyway, since the feckless Trump team took over.
 
RobDownSouth said:
France and Germany stated earlier this week that if the Trump mineral deal fell through (which it ultimately did), they'd be more than happy to purchase the massive lithium and cobalt reserves in Ukraine. Poland is Ukraine's biggest trading partner now and depends on the export/import pipeline.

I believe your view is a tad myopic....that somehow "Ukraine would fall without continuing US support". I don't see support wavering from those three countries above and the UK seems pretty committed in supporting Ukraine (KIng Charles even made a rare comment on a political event when he criticized the Russian invasion).

In short, if the US steps down, other countries seem primed to step up. All the US is ceding is its leadership role, which has been in something of a vacuum for the past month or so anyway, since the feckless Trump team took over.
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I’ll acknowledge the possibility of your theory. France, Germany and the UK could step up. Will they? Time will tell.

They haven’t put forward mineral rights proposals of their own, and the leaders of those countries have their own domestic challenges getting support for increased defense spending. Maybe today’s face plant by Zelinski and Trump’s hard line will light a fire under them.
 
It require three things to be a superpower. #1 have to have a dominate military. #2 have to have a dominate economy. #3 have to be able to dominate politically. We are no longer a superpower.
 
BabyBoomer50s said:
I’ll acknowledge the possibility of your theory. France, Germany and the UK could step up. Will they? Time will tell.

They haven’t put forward mineral rights proposals of their own, and the leaders of those countries have their own domestic challenges getting support for increased defense spending. Maybe today’s face plant by Zelinski and Trump’s hard line will light a fire under them.
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It wasn't Zelenskyy who face-planted today.
 
Politruk said:
If Europe backs up Ukraine, I'd give it another year, no more.
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I won’t argue against your estimate but will note that if policy makers in Europe and the US thought this war could be won by Ukraine within a year, Zelinski wouldn’t have bothered making his trip to the WH.
 
All those "toughs" in the Oval Office looked like chicken shit high schoolers trying to impress the local bully. Zelensky has more class and cajones in his little finger.

What an embarassment. Of course the weaklings here loved it. Anyone who stands up for the Idiot admits to being a desperate puny ass weakling.
 
BabyBoomer50s said:
I won’t argue against your estimate but will note that if policy makers in Europe and the US thought this war could be won by Ukraine within a year, Zelinski wouldn’t have bothered making his trip to the WH.
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Of course he would -- anything, short of surrender, that might shorten the war by even a month is worth doing.
 
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