Trump Categories

[SevenSquared]

I've often been interested to know which categories 'trump' which other categories when it comes to deciding which section a story belongs in. Obviously only the site admins really know, but I thought I would try putting together my best guess according to common sense, what I have observed and what other people on the forum seem to think. Feel free to nitpick the details or post alternative lists.

The list is from most to least 'dominant'

NonHuman
Celebrities
Gay Male
Incest/Taboo
Transsexuals & Crossdressers
NonConsent/Reluctance
Mind Control
BDSM
Erotic Horror
Lesbian Sex
Fetish
Exhibitionist & Voyeur
Sci-Fi & Fantasy
Group Sex
Interracial Love
Loving Wives
Anal
Toys & Masturbation
Mature
First Time
Romance
Erotic Couplings

Note: I've left out the categories that tend to describe style rather than content, those being 'How To', 'Humour/Satire', 'Novels', 'Chain Stories', 'Illustrated', 'Audio', 'Reviews and Essays', 'Letter' 'Non Erotic' and 'Non English'. These categories likely sit outside of the usual trumping system. I think with humour and novels a story will go there if the author wants it to or not if they don't. With the others, I think a story either belongs in these categories or it doesn't. If it does, it's pretty much anything goes in terms of content. I guess you could get an audio chain story, or an illustrated Spanish how-to or something. If someone makes one send me a link

Note 2: The list is supposed to represent the 'average' story in each category. With certain categories such as non-consent, mind control, BDSM and fetish, it's trumping power will be determined by how 'extreme' an example of that genre it is.

Note 3: Before anyone points it out, yes I know in a perfect world Gay Male and Lesbian would be of the same trumping power. In practical terms though I doubt this is the case.

 

[TinyBeth]

Note 3: Before anyone points it out, yes I know in a perfect world Gay Male and Lesbian would be of the same trumping power. In practical terms though I doubt this is the case.

Sadly I'm pretty sure this is correct. For example, La Racasse's Halloween story had strong BDSM themes, but was in Gay Male. Mine, which was entirely female, was in BDSM not Lesbian in spite of a rather graphic lesbian sex scene.

 

[Darkniciad]

There's no (even near)universal trump hierarchy. It's always a case by case basis. Too many variables.

 

[SevenSquared]

There's no (even near)universal trump hierarchy. It's always a case by case basis. Too many variables.

There is no completely foolproof universal hierarchy, but there are definitely categories that tend to trump others. If you don't think it is worth discussing, then feel free to ignore this thread I guess.

 

[TinyBeth]

My other comment is I think that actually Incest probably trumps everything else. I'm pretty sure if someone wrote a brother/sister vampire story it would go in Incest rather than Non-Human, but I might be wrong.

 

[TxRad]

The problem with trying to make this work is that only one person makes the call and she does it for her own reasons. Yes, incest, gay male, and a few others are high cards but when you start mixing and matching and then adding in degrees of this or that, it all goes out the window.

By the way, what are the Vampire rules on brother/sister relationships?

 

[Darkniciad]

NonHuman
Celebrities
Mind Control
Erotic Horror
Sci-Fi & Fantasy

You may as well throw these out along with the style categories you've already tossed. The elements that create these categories appear in others all the time, and elements of the other categories appear in these all the time. They're genres not tied to any specific type of sexuality, and thus too fluid. They completely change the dynamic.

The exception is Celebrities, where if Laurel knows who the real person is or the fiction the story is based on, it will end up there.

Gay Male
Incest/Taboo
Transsexuals & Crossdressers
NonConsent/Reluctance

These are the four ( in no particular order ) that are likely to trigger a category change or reader hate. Have a gay cross-dresser blackmail his brother for sex and you're pretty much screwed. No matter where you put it, the majority of the readership is going to hate it.

BDSM
Lesbian Sex
Interracial Love
Loving Wives

The second category ( in no particular order ) are more strongly influenced by reader hate or "purists" than site preference. Put a penis anywhere in a lesbian story, and the purists will castrate you. Mix black and white and the skinheads will come out in force. Post in LW and everyone will hate you.

But what about lesbian exhibitionists who get off on showing off for men who don't have a chance in hell of ever touching them? That could work in E&V.

These are only really trumps within the category. Outside the category, much of the same content can fly in other places.

Fetish
Exhibitionist & Voyeur
Anal
Toys & Masturbation

You can get away with mixing a lot of other stuff in these categories, but it still needs to focus on the specific sexual situation if you don't want the readers to punish you. The site is unlikely to change any of these unless your story has nothing at all to do with the category.

Mature
Group Sex
Romance
First Time

Similar to the above, but with focus on the story rather than the sex acts. All you have to do is hit a single point to qualify. Older or Age Gap, More than two people, emotion, virgin.

Erotic Couplings

Ultimate dumping ground for one on one stories. The readership is transient and really doesn't care what's here. However, Laurel seems to like to categorize stories from EC if she sees elements that fit.

Even those groupings are too loose to be of real use. Take a sexually frustrated, middle-aged wife who catches her eighteen year old neighbor peeking at her laying out in the back yard and decides to put on a show while her husband is obsessing on a fishing show in the house.

You're taking elements from groups 2, 3, and 4. Any one of them is a viable, pretty much equal option, depending upon how much the marriage is stressed.

Throw those genres from the top in there, and it becomes even more of a mess where category lines blur.

You can identify some things the website is likely to change. You can identify some things the readers are likely to despise. But in the end, it comes down to the story as a whole, and every single one is a new categorization challenge.

 

[Darkniciad]

My other comment is I think that actually Incest probably trumps everything else. I'm pretty sure if someone wrote a brother/sister vampire story it would go in Incest rather than Non-Human, but I might be wrong.

http://www.literotica.com/s/ebon-genesis ( Sci-Fi & Fantasy )

To my regular readers: Be warned, this story delves into new territory. Specifically, this tale has incest/taboo content, so if that is not your sort of thing consider the warning delivered.

On top of that, his half sister rapes him and humiliates him with watersports. There are scenes when he snaps that would fit just fine in a horror story. His relationship with his step-sister would fit just fine in Romance. He's got a thing for earning his red wings. That and half sister's watersports are both fetish.

In this case, the setting of the story is the trump despite the hard-edged content.

And lord, does it need an edit to remove an excess of commas...

 

[SevenSquared]

Interesting response Dark.

The reason I left things like horror and sci-fi in the list is that these are categories where people often seem to procrastinate over whether to put stories in there or whether to categorise according to the sex acts that take place. And I think the answer does depend a bit on what 'other category' it is. If there was a sci-fi story based around gay sex, I think the GM readers would appreciate it a lot more than the sci-fi readers. But if it was a sci-fi story based around toys (now there's an idea ) there would probably be a larger % of regulars in SF/F wanting to read it than in T&M. I agree with you on celebrities, I think anything with a recognised celebrity in, even if it is GM or Incest, would get put in celebrities, hence why I put it above those.

I am open to the idea that we should be considering categories rather than a definitive ordered list. And I mostly agree with the groups you put the categories in, although I think I would put Interracial down in the bottom group. I think unless a massive deal is made out of the race of one of the characters (i.e. it is a specific fetish of the other character and that is the focus of the story) it will be only a side element to the story.

As for your general comment that doing this is 'useless' well... you're certainly entitled to that opinion. It's not like I'm trying to change the world here just start an interesting discussion. I think there are enough questions along the lines of "what category should I put this in?" and "why was my story moved?" that having a community discussion about categories trumping others (or at least about under what circumstances some categories trump others) might be useful.

 

[TxRad]

Interesting response Dark.

The reason I left things like horror and sci-fi in the list is that these are categories where people often seem to procrastinate over whether to put stories in there or whether to categorise according to the sex acts that take place. And I think the answer does depend a bit on what 'other category' it is. If there was a sci-fi story based around gay sex, I think the GM readers would appreciate it a lot more than the sci-fi readers. But if it was a sci-fi story based around toys (now there's an idea ) there would probably be a larger % of regulars in SF/F wanting to read it than in T&M. I agree with you on celebrities, I think anything with a recognised celebrity in, even if it is GM or Incest, would get put in celebrities, hence why I put it above those.

I am open to the idea that we should be considering categories rather than a definitive ordered list. And I mostly agree with the groups you put the categories in, although I think I would put Interracial down in the bottom group. I think unless a massive deal is made out of the race of one of the characters (i.e. it is a specific fetish of the other character and that is the focus of the story) it will be only a side element to the story.

As for your general comment that doing this is 'useless' well... you're certainly entitled to that opinion. It's not like I'm trying to change the world here just start an interesting discussion. I think there are enough questions along the lines of "what category should I put this in?" and "why was my story moved?" that having a community discussion about categories trumping others (or at least about under what circumstances some categories trump others) might be useful.

I fight with which cat on almost every story. I write long stories and most cross many cats. so it is a toss up. But I have to do it differently each time. It's a story by story thing. And then Laurel has the final say and throws everything out the window.

No, one size fits all, works.

 

[Darkniciad]

definitive ordered list. And I mostly agree with the groups you put the categories in, although I think I would put Interracial down in the bottom group.

That's why it's in a group where it primarily matters when the story is in that category. If you're not playing on the interracial element, what's the point of it being there? ( Unless there's absolutely no other hook ) The racists go to that category looking for things to hate on. Anything else they stumble across, but they know where to find it in Interracial.

Romance readers don't care what race the characters are. They want emotion. You can have characters in every color of the rainbow in Sci-Fi&Fantasy. Anal readers don't care what the skin tone is, so long as there's backdoor action. So on and so forth.

BDSM is an iffy there, too. LW readers hate it if the wrong character is on the receiving end, and eat it up if the right character is getting it ( usually, the less BDSM and more torture it is, the more they like it )

An anal scene between a master and sub might fly in anal, though. A virgin sub in first time could work. There are exhibitionist scenarios that would fly. The list goes on and on.

Stray off the path in BDSM and the purists will chain you to the wall and take the lash to you, though.

There are just too many variables. Even a summary of a story may be insufficient to categorize it. A list of the characters, the setting, and the sex acts is too sterile to determine which one dominates, and whether the others have enough meat on the bone to bother the people in the dominant category, if there even is one. Stories can be so all over the place that there's no way to categorize them.

Fortunately, a story with that much going on is usually long enough to qualify for Novels and Novellas, another dumping ground that's a reader wasteland, but at least it has few trolls to hate on the onslaught of scenarios you're throwing at them.

Discussing categorization is always a good idea. It's a major pitfall on this site where category has a huge influence on the reaction to your story. Every bit of insight new writers can draw from those who've taken the sling stones to the head before them is a step in the right direction. If nothing else, your list inspires that, even though the original premise of the thread is a fool's errand

 

[soflabbwlvr]

NonHuman
Celebrities
Mind Control
Erotic Horror
Sci-Fi & Fantasy

You may as well throw these out along with the style categories you've already tossed. The elements that create these categories appear in others all the time, and elements of the other categories appear in these all the time. They're genres not tied to any specific type of sexuality, and thus too fluid. They completely change the dynamic.

The exception is Celebrities, where if Laurel knows who the real person is or the fiction the story is based on, it will end up there.

Gay Male
Incest/Taboo
Transsexuals & Crossdressers
NonConsent/Reluctance

These are the four ( in no particular order ) that are likely to trigger a category change or reader hate. Have a gay cross-dresser blackmail his brother for sex and you're pretty much screwed. No matter where you put it, the majority of the readership is going to hate it.

BDSM
Lesbian Sex
Interracial Love
Loving Wives

The second category ( in no particular order ) are more strongly influenced by reader hate or "purists" than site preference. Put a penis anywhere in a lesbian story, and the purists will castrate you. Mix black and white and the skinheads will come out in force. Post in LW and everyone will hate you.

But what about lesbian exhibitionists who get off on showing off for men who don't have a chance in hell of ever touching them? That could work in E&V.

These are only really trumps within the category. Outside the category, much of the same content can fly in other places.

Fetish
Exhibitionist & Voyeur
Anal
Toys & Masturbation

You can get away with mixing a lot of other stuff in these categories, but it still needs to focus on the specific sexual situation if you don't want the readers to punish you. The site is unlikely to change any of these unless your story has nothing at all to do with the category.

Mature
Group Sex
Romance
First Time

Similar to the above, but with focus on the story rather than the sex acts. All you have to do is hit a single point to qualify. Older or Age Gap, More than two people, emotion, virgin.

Erotic Couplings

Ultimate dumping ground for one on one stories. The readership is transient and really doesn't care what's here. However, Laurel seems to like to categorize stories from EC if she sees elements that fit.

Even those groupings are too loose to be of real use. Take a sexually frustrated, middle-aged wife who catches her eighteen year old neighbor peeking at her laying out in the back yard and decides to put on a show while her husband is obsessing on a fishing show in the house.

You're taking elements from groups 2, 3, and 4. Any one of them is a viable, pretty much equal option, depending upon how much the marriage is stressed.

Throw those genres from the top in there, and it becomes even more of a mess where category lines blur.

You can identify some things the website is likely to change. You can identify some things the readers are likely to despise. But in the end, it comes down to the story as a whole, and every single one is a new categorization challenge.

Interesting response Dark.

The reason I left things like horror and sci-fi in the list is that these are categories where people often seem to procrastinate over whether to put stories in there or whether to categorise according to the sex acts that take place. And I think the answer does depend a bit on what 'other category' it is. If there was a sci-fi story based around gay sex, I think the GM readers would appreciate it a lot more than the sci-fi readers. But if it was a sci-fi story based around toys (now there's an idea ) there would probably be a larger % of regulars in SF/F wanting to read it than in T&M. I agree with you on celebrities, I think anything with a recognised celebrity in, even if it is GM or Incest, would get put in celebrities, hence why I put it above those.

I am open to the idea that we should be considering categories rather than a definitive ordered list. And I mostly agree with the groups you put the categories in, although I think I would put Interracial down in the bottom group. I think unless a massive deal is made out of the race of one of the characters (i.e. it is a specific fetish of the other character and that is the focus of the story) it will be only a side element to the story.

As for your general comment that doing this is 'useless' well... you're certainly entitled to that opinion. It's not like I'm trying to change the world here just start an interesting discussion. I think there are enough questions along the lines of "what category should I put this in?" and "why was my story moved?" that having a community discussion about categories trumping others (or at least about under what circumstances some categories trump others) might be useful.

For the most part, I think Dark hit the nail on the head. One other qualifier I would add is that there is only one person screening the stories, and she is probably going through them rather quickly. As a result, I would expect an inconsistent treatment of category conflicts based on the fact that she can't catch every nuance in every story. Mistakes are made that may look like unfair or disparate treatment to some.

Also, I agree with sevensquared regarding the effect of interracial sequences in a story. For the most part, I don't think the inclusion of interracial sexual activity will result in a change from an otherwise valid category selection to interracial. Approximately one-third of my stories have an interracial component, and not one has been changed from the category I in which I submitted to interracial.

And, for the most part, I don't believe that the inclusion of interracial activity necessarily results in flaming comments from skinheads. For the most part, Lit. readers take it in stride and move on. Again, I base this on my own experience as an author and a reader. The two instances where I would predict negative comments are in LW (where all sorts of pathologies can be found), or anywhere else if the story involves a white female and a black male, and the coupling results in humiliation of the white female's white husband. Just about any other pairing will be acceptable.

 

[sr71plt]

I think SevenSquared has given a good cut at a trump list. And it isn't only Laurel who uses a sense of a trump category list. As they add to their story file, the authors are given a sense of what flies best where and they also are using a mental trump list that they find works best with their stories. I certainly have such a list in mind. And I think SevenSuqared's cut at it is pretty good.

 

[lovecraft68]

Due to the squick factor I think incest trumps all.

In my opinion GM would be next and everything else to me is more or less a crap shoot, although BDSM is not for everyone either.

 

[TinyBeth]

I'm enjoying this discussion. So far I haven't had a problem categorizing my stories, but if I start mixing elements more it will be helpful to know how it works.

We still never answered the question about the brother/sister vampire story and which category it goes in. =)

 

[TxRad]

I'm enjoying this discussion. So far I haven't had a problem categorizing my stories, but if I start mixing elements more it will be helpful to know how it works.

We still never answered the question about the brother/sister vampire story and which category it goes in. =)

Check out post #8

 

[Boxlicker101]

Celebrity trumps anything else. If you write a story featuring a celeb., it will go into that category regardless of the subject matter. If Lindsey Lohan is anally raped by a vampire, it goes into celeb.

And everything trumps E/C.

 

[TE999]

A few years back, I submitted a Lesbian Sex story and management put it in the EC cat. Dunno why. OTOH I submitted a Halloween story about a female vampire and a female werewolf that became lovers after a party and it stayed in Non-Human.

Is Kitty Mama the only person who reviews stories? With the sheer volume of submittals that seems impossible, unless she has a program that looks for under 18yo girls, too much blood and guts and overtly vicious sadism.

 

[Boxlicker101]

A few years back, I submitted a Lesbian Sex story and management put it in the EC cat. Dunno why. OTOH I submitted a Halloween story about a female vampire and a female werewolf that became lovers after a party and it stayed in Non-Human.

Is Kitty Mama the only person who reviews stories? With the sheer volume of submittals that seems impossible, unless she has a program that looks for under 18yo girls, too much blood and guts and overtly vicious sadism.

Somtimes mistakes are made and stories get put in the wrong place. If you had asked, they probably would have changed the one to lesbian.

Laurel says she is the only person who screens stories. There might be aome kind of program that screens for technical proplems. I don't believe there would be a program that screened for 18 year old girls or boys.

There's nothing wrong with having children in stories, if they are not sexually involved.

 

[Euphony]

Celebrity trumps anything else. If you write a story featuring a celeb., it will go into that category regardless of the subject matter. If Lindsey Lohan is anally raped by a vampire, it goes into celeb.

And everything trumps E/C.

In fairness to the vampire she DID hit him with her car first.

 

[SevenSquared]

I think I got non-human wrong in my original list. To be honest I am not one of those people who is really into the new Vampire fandom (last Vampire thing I watched was Buffy, lol) and the stories I have read in non-human have mainly been ones about weird aliens and animal-like creatures, where it would be silly to start labeling them as 'gay male' or 'incest' because they might not have any real concept of gender or family. But looking at the category as a whole, it seems that a lot of it is just vampire, werewolf and ghost stories, which probably would be trumped by some of the more 'icky' categories.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I think I got non-human wrong in my original list. To be honest I am not one of those people who is really into the new Vampire fandom (last Vampire thing I watched was Buffy, lol) and the stories I have read in non-human have mainly been ones about weird aliens and animal-like creatures, where it would be silly to start labeling them as 'gay male' or 'incest' because they might not have any real concept of gender or family. But looking at the category as a whole, it seems that a lot of it is just vampire, werewolf and ghost stories, which probably would be trumped by some of the more 'icky' categories.

I've written a few vampire stories, and this is my favorite among them. The main character is named Buffy because I felt like being a smart alec when I wrote it. http://www.literotica.com/s/coed-vampire

 

[Darkniciad]

Not really.

The website doesn't really argue with placing any story containing fantasy creatures or fantasy worlds in Non Human or Sci-Fi&Fantasy, regardless of the content.

Likewise, the readership is used to a wider range of sexual situations than the norm of the narrower real world categories. Some things ( incest, GM ) I usually warn about in an author's note at the beginning, but otherwise, the readership expects everything from BDSM to lesbian harems.

So, if your setting is one of fantasy, rather than real world, those two categories are almost always your best choice. They give you a great deal more freedom to explore as you wish than the real world categories, where readers often balk at the fantasy elements.

The sacrifice is a smaller ( but growing ) readership compared to some of the categories.