Trite and True

[SlightlyGone]

Fact of the matter is, if something falls out of story logic--being defined as unusual in the context of a story--it must be explained , or at least referenced, or be considered nonsensical.
.

Nothing 'must be' when writing a story ... but He-man's opening monologue doesn't need to be explored for the show to make sense, you get just enough from that to understand why he can do what he do, wanting to know the origin story can always be done. That's more want vs need.

If you go off the wall with a laser beam shooting duck for no reason ... that could ruin a story ... or, like in Man Seeking Woman, you just accept this crazy shit happens and everyone is okay with it because that's how the world works.

It fits for Man vs Woman ... might even for a book, if it's done well.


If you're writing a love story and the duck shows up at the ending to shoot whoever is trying to get in the way of the love ... explaining would help there. A lot.

 

[AMoveableBeast]

Nothing 'must be' when writing a story ... but He-man's opening monologue doesn't need to be explored for the show to make sense, you get just enough from that to understand why he can do what he do, wanting to know the origin story can always be done. That's more want vs need.

If you go off the wall with a laser beam shooting duck for no reason ... that could ruin a story ... or, like in Man Seeking Woman, you just accept this crazy shit happens and everyone is okay with it because that's how the world works.

It fits for Man vs Woman ... might even for a book, if it's done well.


If you're writing a love story and the duck shows up at the ending to shoot whoever is trying to get in the way of the love ... explaining would help there. A lot.

Hey now, we already had deus ex moth; we can't have deus ex laser-duck.

That would just be silly.

I agree that stories don't beg a lot of hard rules. The real value of a story is whether someone enjoys it. I'm a fan of the absurd, and I'm willing to swallow a heavy does of the unexplained. I'll even show it to you still in my mouth if it excites you.

But even superheroes brush their teeth with radioactive toothpaste or something. I'm not asking for David Copperfield. Heck, I like the Metamorphisis.

There is a difference between being vague and withholding information to achieve an effect, and just not being able to tell a coherent story. And, for my part, I've already stated that I don't even think being coherent is all that important in some tales.

But let's call a David Spade movie a David Spade movie, shall we?

 

[SlightlyGone]

There is a difference between being vague and withholding information to achieve an effect, and just not being able to tell a coherent story. And, for my part, I've already stated that I don't even think being coherent is all that important in some tales.

It's all part of being a good story teller ... if you can make not coherent work, then it works ... I read a fantasy series where the author withheld information ... not for the effect, but because I don't think he knew how to make sense of what his characters were doing if he had to explain how they came up with their plans or got their information, or manipulated people.

He was more like: I need this to happen, so it will happen and the why & how isn't really the point. It wasn't even clever, it was annoying. Why did I read all the books? I preordered the series. Bad judgement.

Maybe the guy who wrote The Fly didn't like The Metamorphisis.

 

[AMoveableBeast]

Ah. The dreaded preorder.

 

[legerdemer]

...
Fact of the matter is, if something falls out of story logic--being defined as unusual in the context of a story--it must be explained , or at least referenced, or be considered nonsensical.

This varies from story to story, of course. In a novel in which animals can talk, having a goose sing need not be explained. Animals can talk in this world. Cool. Now, having said goose shoot laser beams out of his eyes bears the necessity for explanation, or at the least an odd reaction from the other animals. The other animals can't shoot laser beams. Why can the goose?

Mr. Beaver was sad. The lumber mill had closed and the bills were piling up. He chewed his fingernails nervously. Miss Moose was also sad. She worried that her body type would never reflect the current standard of beauty that was proposed in fashion magazines. She pulled her horns this way and that, contemplating a sex change. Dr. Goose was pissed. What was all this sadness shit. He was ready to fuck some shit the fuck up. He unleashed a blast from his lazer-fucking-beam-eyes and disintegrated a nearby tree. All the animals agreed that they would have a tea party to cheer themselves up.

No story can feature a laser beam shooting goose without featuring an explanation or a reaction unless it is populated by similarly endowed geese. We'll call this the "Rodolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer Principle."

In other news, look for my next story, Dr. Goose or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Beam".

Can't wait - Animal Farm on acid. Fantastic Mr. Fox meets Star Trek.

Your points are well taken.

Beam me up, Scotty.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

I agree. No one likes a lazy use of a cliché.

But since we're talking about erotica, per se, it's never "just" a question of plot, story, technical writing questions, etc. The clichés and tropes are rooted in sexual content.

In this instance, happening upon the family member jerking off does usually serve a plot point, true, but to ask why it's there is not to thus write a ten volume backstory. The reason it's there is simple: because it's hot.

Why?

That's what I mean. People make use of clichés most of the time, at least here, because they are hot--or were, at one time, and sometimes still are, depending on how it's used. To go further is not just a writerly problem, it's an erotic content problem.

If you could get to the root of this particular cliché and expand it, explore it, you'd own the incest category.

Maybe. Or maybe the cliché is only a lazy shortcut to getting to the action.

If you write a piece exploring the why of such a cliché, I'd be interested in reading it.

 

[Hypoxia]

We use clichés, tropes, stereotypes, formulae, as useful shortcuts, but must take care how we employ them. We depend on readers' cultural familiarity for those elements to be plausible and coherent. A tale set in a fictional universe from literature or cine-video I'm unfamiliar with will include references meaning nothing to me. Feh.

Not that I'm innocent -- I like to include little in-joke details only the cognoscenti will appreciate. Guess that makes me a smartass (US) or clever-dick (UK). At least I'm not a spad.

Think of clichés and other shortcuts as ICONs in the AI sense. An on-screen printer icon represents all the steps involved in putting a source onto paper or film or whatever, but we ignore the details 'cause we only want a printout. We visualize a clenched-fist icon to represent grasping or threatening, again without detailing all the muscle-movements and nerve-surges required.

We're supposed to know what an icon means when we see and use it. Otherwise that unknown icon sits there accusingly, you dummy. If you don't catch the stereotypes are you too stupid to read the story or merely not among the target audience?

 

[Nathan_Brazil]

Trope Lovers

In the piece I just finished, I did my best to spin many of the tropes of that genre on their heads, and every time I did it, I lost a few readers. A few were quite upset! Heh!

But the readers that stayed with me, they seemed to enjoy the more challenging ideas... And my ratings were good.

So, I think it comes down to who you are trying to reach. Politicians (no names) do this all the time. Guys with university educations choosing to speak at a 4th grade level.

 

[sr71plt]

I think it comes down to letting the story you're writing come naturally out of you. There are several threads going that I just shake my head at how hard some of you are trying to analyze everything. Just write the damn story in your own voice.

 

[legerdemer]

I think it comes down to letting the story you're writing come naturally out of you. There are several threads going that I just shake my head at how hard some of you are trying to analyze everything. Just write the damn story in your own voice.

If we did what you suggest, we'd have nothing to talk about. It would all be word games and naked parties. Or politics (gagging). Now I'm a sucker for word games, but I'm trying to wean myself.

Seriously, though, it's helpful to think about different ways others approach things. It helps sift through the chaff in my brain even if none of anyone else's solutions work for me.

Now I have to figure out what a spad is.

 

[AMoveableBeast]

Just write the damn story in your own voice.

I think this is akin to telling an actor to just "act like themselves". And hey, it worked for Keanu Reeves.

Personally, I'd like to get to the point where I could write the story in other people's voices as well as my own.

Always be yourself; Unless you can be Raymond Carver. Then be Raymond Carver.

 

[sr71plt]

There's a balance to be had, I think. Those I see agonizing to the extent I see on two threads now running tend to squeeze out one story of strangled prose a year--and keep a lot of others using the discussion to procrastinate as well. Go look at the most successful short story writers. They didn't do it by committee and they didn't do it by engaging in agonizing discussions with others--they did it in solitary out of their own creativity and in their own voice and let the others avoid writing by discussing how they managed to do it.

 

[AMoveableBeast]

There's a balance to be had, I think. Those I see agonizing to the extent I see on two threads now running tend to squeeze out one story of strangled prose a year--and keep a lot of others using the discussion to procrastinate as well. Go look at the most successful short story writers. They didn't do it by committee and they didn't do it by engaging in agonizing discussions with others--they did it in solitary out of their own creativity and in their own voice and let the others avoid writing by discussing how they managed to do it.

*chuckle*

Well, I certainly resemble that comment lately, so you have me there.

*tips hat*

I'm off to write.

 

[legerdemer]

I have this cliché teetering on the tip of my tongue.

It takes all kinds.


Oops, there, it escaped...

 

[Hypoxia]

If we did what you suggest, we'd have nothing to talk about. It would all be word games and naked parties. Or politics (gagging).

It's mostly [characterization deleted] word games here anyway. If not for these recurrent hashings-over I'd never be on AH at all -- I'd stick to SI. Hey, let's find new ways to argue about breaking rules, authoring by formula, shuffling story structures, and counting votes. It's easier than writing.

Now I have to figure out what a spad is.

Very local slang in areas east of Los Angeles near the San Bernardino county line. The community of Spadra has long housed the Pacific Colony, a residential facility for what are now called the "developmentally challenged" -- e.g. retards, morons, imbeciles. In local parlance, a spad is a "mental retread". Locals also define 'Republican' or 'pub' as an inmate at nearby Boy's Republic, a detention facility for Bad Boys. Yeah, we know the spads and the pubs.

 

[Handley_Page]

SPAD ?
"Signal Passed at Danger" ; an expression from the UK rail network.
OR
Société Pour L'Aviation et ses Dérivés (SPAD),
who made aeroplanes during the first world war.

 

[Hypoxia]

SPAD ?

How the Town of Spadra [California] Disappeared

Hint: No tentacles were involved.

 

[Ewobbit]

http://writing2.richmond.edu/writing/wweb/cliche.html

http://www.writersdigest.com/whats-new/10-tips-to-bypass-cliche-and-melodrama

http://www.be-a-better-writer.com/cliches.html

http://www.skillsyouneed.com/write/cliches-to-avoid.html

Oh, and Beast, those links were for everyone but you. You need to get that tale you are working on finished.

Actually, on second thought, better include Hypoxia in there too.

Everyone else, enjoy.

 

[AMoveableBeast]

http://writing2.richmond.edu/writing/wweb/cliche.html

http://www.writersdigest.com/whats-new/10-tips-to-bypass-cliche-and-melodrama

http://www.be-a-better-writer.com/cliches.html

http://www.skillsyouneed.com/write/cliches-to-avoid.html

Oh, and Beast, those links were for everyone but you. You need to get that tale you are working on finished.

Actually, on second thought, better include Hypoxia in there too.

Everyone else, enjoy.

Hey, I wrote 5k words yesterday. I owe the pilot a debt of gratitude.

 

[PervOtaku]

Another response is to dig into the (cliché) that clichés are clichés for a reason. I think that's true. There is a reason, but most don't bother to ask why, they just repeat.

As TV Tropes says, tropes are not bad, they are just a tool. I think people object to cliches mainly when they are used badly. Of course well known tropes lead to things like lampshade hanging to alleviate some of that.

Which begs the question, of course, where did he get this magic sword, how long did he have it, why did he suddenly hold it up and say the magic words, and where did he learn them? You could ride a battle cat through those plot holes.

Truth is, it's not that kind of story. It's about a muscular guy who swings a magic sword and fights a skeleton dude. That's the selling point. It isn't trying to be Brideshead Revisited. People who tune-in aren't worried about things as uninteresting as plot and reason. They want sword and sorcery in the time it takes to microwave a Hot Pocket, damn it!

Because the audience is kids, and kids don't care. Or the show runners want every episode to be able to stand alone without having to worry about knowing the origin or what happened in previous episodes. This is especially useful for formulaic shows where certain things happen a certain way every episode.

In this instance, happening upon the family member jerking off does usually serve a plot point, true, but to ask why it's there is not to thus write a ten volume backstory. The reason it's there is simple: because it's hot.

Why?

If I had to guess, it's because everybody has a family and everybody knows you don't normally think of family members like that (due to the Westermarck effect), and it would take a shocking event to stand a chance of negating that and ending in incestuous acts. Or that's just a quick way in the door if you want to get to the action in a hurry.

Plus, the incest scenario is the one where the backstory is automatically implied. These people are family, we all know how they know each other. If a story starts out with the main character already in a relationship, the readers might ask "How did they meet, that must be a great story?" even if it's not relevant to the plot. But nobody will ever ask that about an incest story.