Transcend, transcendent. Of interest to you?

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[FatDino]

"Transcendence is not an imaginary jump to some place 'outside' the universe. Transcendence is what happens many times within this universe . . . For example, on the atomic and subatomic scales, 'human' means nothing. There is no humanness to our atoms [Hmm! Is this true?].

In my own opinion, it is true. Everything on this planet, living or not, are made up of protons, neutrons and electrons. Of course, there are even smaller particles, but let's not go there.

Humanness, after all, is a collection of electrochemical reactions within our bodies. The atoms react with one another by "instinct". They don't "think", they don't "choose" and they don't "perfer" one reaction to another. If they collide with other atoms and if there's enough energy around to trigger a reaction, then that's what happens.

What happens in our bodies on the atomic level, or even larger, the cellular level is totally involuntary. "We", as a conscious mind, cannot control.

Whether atoms are inside us, inside a rock or drifting through space, is all the same to them. On the atomic scale, therefore, even inside our own bodies we do not exist. 'We' are something that transcends atoms [bold mine]."

Again, true.

On the atomic scale, only protons, neutrons and electrons exist. They don't "know" a thing about "bodies". They exist, they spin, they give off energy, they react. They get together and they make up "us".

Unless, of course, atoms "have" our intellect within them.

Hmm...that'd be a disaster

 

[cantdog]

Science has no idea what the mind is, no idea what self is. They disbelieve that Uri geller's mind bends the spoon, and they are correct, in a way. But the truly inexplicable thing is, mind over matter happens all day long.

When I make my hand turn palm up, curl my fingers into a fist-- science can tell me what muscles contracted, and what nerve trunks carried a signal. They can show me characteristic electrical patterns in characteristic parts of the brain associated with that movement.

But that's all matter, isn't it? And my volition was the actuator of that action. Mind over matter, and even more mysterious than Uri Geller's spoons. Where is my volition? Science cannot point to it. What is it? Every human on earth knows as much about the answer to that question as any neurological scientist.

To me, it looks as though the self is a construct made of pure information. Interpenetration with machines may well mean that the self can become exteriorized, leave the monkey body behind, and live on as pure information.

Wetware, hardware, what would be the difference? Notice, too, that while bodies as such cannot be made to travel in time, information almost can be. Information can travel through infinite space, right this minute, so long as it does not exceed the speed of light. How's that for transcending?

 

[FatDino]

Science has no idea what the mind is, no idea what self is. They disbelieve that Uri geller's mind bends the spoon, and they are correct, in a way. But the truly inexplicable thing is, mind over matter happens all day long.

When I make my hand turn palm up, curl my fingers into a fist-- science can tell me what muscles contracted, and what nerve trunks carried a signal. They can show me characteristic electrical patterns in characteristic parts of the brain associated with that movement.

But that's all matter, isn't it? And my volition was the actuator of that action. Mind over matter, and even more mysterious than Uri Geller's spoons. Where is my volition? Science cannot point to it. What is it? Every human on earth knows as much about the answer to that question as any neurological scientist.

But the mind itself is matter after all. We respond differently to the same situations because we're all different from each other. Each individual carries an unique genetic code and has gone through unique social experiences. I'm willing to bet if there're two humans who have the same genotype and have been raised the same in every aspect, they would act just like each other.

Our DNA is what determines every thought, every movement and every characteristic of ours. The mind, is just matter.

Wetware, hardware, what would be the difference? Notice, too, that while bodies as such cannot be made to travel in time, information almost can be. Information can travel through infinite space, right this minute, so long as it does not exceed the speed of light. How's that for transcending?

Information is a collection of traveling particles. We can communicate with people far away from us by using cables and devices. Human bodies can't travel through infinite space because we haven't found out a way to carry our whole self through the universe.

A theory out there suggests that if we can demoleculize ourselves and then reverse the process at the destinations, humans can travel through space and maybe, time. But in order to do so, both places have to be provided with detailed description of our bodies, exact to every molecule and have to somehow "vaporize" and "collect" us.

It's better to just go to Egypt and start digging. Maybe we'll find something similar to a stargate.

 

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[FatDino]

I haven't read anything definitive saying that mind is matter. Can you quote where anyone has said they have determined that mind is matter? I would really be interested to know of it if so.

No I cannot quote anyone who has said it, but it doesn't mean it's not true. The brain itself is matter, created by particles and functions on electrobiochemical energy. Every thought is processed through neurons and neurons are matters. The mind is our intellect, but if there wasn't any electrons around, what thought would we have?

Sans free will? Again, can you cite anything, or is it opinion?

And again, no, I can't. Not right now, at least.

No offense here, but I don't see why I have to cite someone to make my words persuasive. I'm talking about rational facts and I believe in them. Every scientist starts out that way. They research on issues that intrigue them, they work to prove their beliefs; some succeed, some don't. But I base my argument on facts. It may be just a personal opinion right now but I believe there are others who have done their research and agree with me.

You're talking "sent" information, I take it, not things like thoughts we might have. Is that right?

Since I believe mind is matter, if we can figure out a way to demoleculize and then moleculize our bodies back, our memories and thoughts should stay the same.

So the question remains, as in my response to Cantdog, are we mystical in that we do transcend our atoms that comprise us?

The atoms don't recognize us. I don't think either our minds or the atoms transcend the other. But then again, I believe that mind is matter. There's nothing really "mystical". It all comes down to chemical reactions and quantum physics.

 

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[FatDino]

Opinions are fine, just wondered if that's what it was, or if there's something new to be learned. I lurv that learning stuff.

Don't we all?

 

[cantdog]

But the mind itself is matter after all. We respond differently to the same situations because we're all different from each other. Each individual carries an unique genetic code and has gone through unique social experiences. I'm willing to bet if there're two humans who have the same genotype and have been raised the same in every aspect, they would act just like each other.

Our DNA is what determines every thought, every movement and every characteristic of ours. The mind, is just matter.


Information is a collection of traveling particles. We can communicate with people far away from us by using cables and devices. Human bodies can't travel through infinite space because we haven't found out a way to carry our whole self through the universe.

A theory out there suggests that if we can demoleculize ourselves and then reverse the process at the destinations, humans can travel through space and maybe, time. But in order to do so, both places have to be provided with detailed description of our bodies, exact to every molecule and have to somehow "vaporize" and "collect" us.

It's better to just go to Egypt and start digging. Maybe we'll find something similar to a stargate.

Not that this is very important to me, but you misunderstand. If the self is, as I have speculated, the information and programming only, that is to say, just the software and the stored information the software is using, then it could be carried on any suitable platform. It would not have to be a monkey body or any other biological construct. Information is information. (Identical twins have differences all the time, btw)

Whether the self I speak of is stored in a brain, a machine, or a combination of these, if it really is the software it won't make a damn bit of difference what carries it. Therefore there is no need to 'demolecularize' anything, merely to send the stream of information as we do any other such stream of information thousands of times a day. Cables, wires, fiber-optics, radiated waves. Whatever new storage and interface it goes to will find it intact, because it does not depend on cellular wetware for its existence. It could send itself, given a decent interface.

We see particles do the time thing, and the space travel, but particles are not information. You need a binary difference at least to encode something. So we can send speed of light infrormation through space, but we have as yet only observed certain particles do the time travel thing.

 

[cantdog]

I'm with you on no one knowing what the mind is, nor the self (consciousness - awareness, nor where it comes from.

How we move the hand, though, well, an explanation has been offered for that:

"But then how does anything ever happen? When we move our arm or leg, protons must jump from myosin-bound water molecules to ATP to initiate muscle contraction. But quantum mechanics insists that the complementary non-jumping events must also exist as part of the quantum superposition."

IOW, the proton is in both places until the movement is acually effected.

And that is no doubt lovely, but it begs the question of what started that proton along its path. Despite Dino, I cannot accept that I have no free will; it flies in the face of my daily experience-- hell, my minute to minute experience. I am fairly sure Dino likewise makes the odd decision herself now and then, and is not always fated to do things by virtue of her heritage. Does a breeder of men, then, also program the future history of the race? No. That is one of the many features of the self that they do not have a chemical model for: volition. Volition, consciousness, awareness and awareness of awareness. All that shit.

But let's stick with volition, which told the proton to tell the muscle to tell the finger. They go as far, you say, as a proton. Will, however, is involved.

can expand apart much faster than light."

This is from the theory of Inflation proposed by Alan Guth which has so far held up, and Einstein's limit on speed not applying to space (or black holes, or anything quantum, neither of which he believed in).

But the thing is, Cant, were you born a mystic, and still remain one to transcend all the atoms that comprise you? Atoms themselves are reusable, recyclable if you will, lending to their not particulary caring how they are used, thus probably no innate intelligence of the sort we commonly know and use. We are not aware of our atoms that make us up. Are we mystics? Do we transcend our atoms?

What I proposed was the answer 'nu'. If we are the software carried, for now, on a biological system, then yes, we are not the same as our atoms. For now, though, no other platform capable of carrying the self has been devised, so that we are still tied to the monkey.

We know all about what happens to dead monkeys, and for now, when the CPU goes, and the storage, well, we go, too. But that model, I think, does not make us transcendent in the mystical way you seem to intend. The model I propose is both a yes and a no to your question. As such, it exposes, I think, some unspoken assumptions in that question.

 

[FatDino]

Not that this is very important to me, but you misunderstand. If the self is, as I have speculated, the information and programming only, that is to say, just the software and the stored information the software is using, then it could be carried on any suitable platform. It would not have to be a monkey body or any other biological construct. Information is information. (Identical twins have differences all the time, btw)
Whether the self I speak of is stored in a brain, a machine, or a combination of these, if it really is the software it won't make a damn bit of difference what carries it. Therefore there is no need to 'demolecularize' anything, merely to send the stream of information as we do any other such stream of information thousands of times a day. Cables, wires, fiber-optics, radiated waves. Whatever new storage and interface it goes to will find it intact, because it does not depend on cellular wetware for its existence. It could send itself, given a decent interface.

First, identical twins have a lot of differences because their DNA's are different. As I have said before, I'm willing to bet that if two persons with the same genotype and same life experience exist, they will act the same way.

Second, "the self" you're talking about, is it the mind with memories, knowledge, thoughts and personality? Or is it just "information"?

If it's just knowledge and information, we already have books and computers to do the job of storing them. And yes, books and computers can be carried from places to places.

If it's the whole thing, you just can't transfer a conscious "mind" into a device nor a brain. You can download much knowledge into one's brain, or you can do certain things to affect their personality or their thoughts, well, theoretically, that is. But you can't put a whole "self" into a host shell.

We see particles do the time thing, and the space travel, but particles are not information. You need a binary difference at least to encode something. So we can send speed of light infrormation through space, but we have as yet only observed certain particles do the time travel thing.

Yes, particles themselves are not information. I said information was a collection of traveling particles. There is a difference.

When you encode something, press Enter, consider it sent to some place else, you have triggered the movements of trillions of electrons within seconds. These electrons travel back and forth within cables and present whatever you just send to whomever you wish to see.

This is for the bold parts. Whether or not we can travel in time is not yet answered. Even time being the 4th dimension of the universe is still a theory not yet proven true. When has anyone witnessed time traveling?

 

[FatDino]

And that is no doubt lovely, but it begs the question of what started that proton along its path. Despite Dino, I cannot accept that I have no free will; it flies in the face of my daily experience-- hell, my minute to minute experience. I am fairly sure Dino likewise makes the odd decision herself now and then, and is not always fated to do things by virtue of her heritage. Does a breeder of men, then, also program the future history of the race? No. That is one of the many features of the self that they do not have a chemical model for: volition. Volition, consciousness, awareness and awareness of awareness. All that shit.

But let's stick with volition, which told the proton to tell the muscle to tell the finger. They go as far, you say, as a proton. Will, however, is involved.

Of course I have made a bunch of weird decisions. Like reading erotica. Never imagined myself reading erotica.

Okay, now reflex arc. Damn, I can give a day long seminar on this subject.

When you touch something hot, temperature wise, your first reaction, even before you notice it, is to withdraw your hand, or fingers.

The heat from the foreign object stimulates pain receptors located on the skin. This triggers an impulse that runs along the afferent neurons to the central nervous system, in this case, that'd be the spinal cord. At the spinal cord, the impulse is processed by tons of chemical reactions and in the end, a so-called decision is made. That is to withdraw your finger.

The "decision" is now carried back to the finger through efferent neurons. When it reaches its destination, the digit's muscles. The "decision", which is basically a bunch of chemicals, triggers the release of neurotransmitters to cross the gaps between neurons and muscle fibres. The muscles, after receiving such signals, will go through more chemical reactions which eventually lead to the withdrawal of the finger. All these happen within a fraction of second.

So you see, the "mind" has nothing to do with it. Totally instinctive reflex.

Conditioned reflex, like turning when your name's called, actually works in the same mechanism. The only difference is that it takes time to learn these reflexes.

When your name's called, instead of pain receptors on skin, it's audio receptors in the ears which send impulses to the brain, not the spinal cord, just because the travel distance would be closer. Then a similar process takes place, still involves only chemical reactions, and then the brain will say "the sound you just hear is your name, turn around". And its decision will go to whatever muscles it takes you to turn.

Again, all chemistry.

Of course there are countless of other reflexes and decisions that we make everyday. But they follow similar procedures. Every thought is processed in biochemical reactions. There's nothing "mystical" about it.

 

[rgraham666]

I'm more worried about being human than transcendent.

Once I get the human part done, then I'll set out on the next step.

 

[FatDino]

I'm more worried about being human than transcendent.

Once I get the human part done, then I'll set out on the next step.

Then I think it's time you set out that next step, sir.

It seems to me that your "particles" have been working just fine.

 

[rgraham666]

Then I think it's time you set out that next step, sir.

It seems to me that your "particles" have been working just fine.

Nah. I've got a way to go yet. Don't mind. It's the journey that's important not the destination.

 

[FatDino]

Nah. I've got a way to go yet. Don't mind. It's the journey that's important not the destination.

Then I suggest you just pack up and start the journey. See what "the next step"'s got to offer.

 

[cantdog]

Second, "the self" you're talking about, is it the mind with memories, knowledge, thoughts and personality? Or is it just "information"?

If it's just knowledge and information, we already have books and computers to do the job of storing them. And yes, books and computers can be carried from places to places.

If it's the whole thing, you just can't transfer a conscious "mind" into a device nor a brain. You can download much knowledge into one's brain, or you can do certain things to affect their personality or their thoughts, well, theoretically, that is. But you can't put a whole "self" into a host shell.

Consider what you have said, here. Of course I mean the mind. A program is information as much as the data it manipulates it, though.

If the host shell is sufficiently well designed and capacious enough, what is to stop me? Right now, there is much to stop me. We do not have a description of the mind or the self, or consciousness, or will, or personality. The DNA you are placing so much faith in is hardly different from that of a chimp or indeed of many other organisms. The thing which makes this whole self thing to have taken off and which has made the human animal so rapidly (in terms of biological or geological time) change into the bizarre world girdling master of mechanism she has become, in my view, is language. Language it is which implies abstraction, culture, planning, tradition, innovation, and so on. It is far and away for profound than any physical change from the australopithecine we have had time to achieve. And it kicked our evolution into a Lamarckian-type frame. We have evolved culturally, in addition to physically, because of language.

My experience of living in this body is that "I" am not my body. I am the subject, in the grammatical sense, and the body merely the object-- that is my relationship to it, in action, and it's the other way to, in sensation. But we feel to "me" like two different things.

 

[FatDino]

The DNA you are placing so much faith in is hardly different from that of a chimp or indeed of many other organisms. The thing which makes this whole self thing to have taken off and which has made the human animal so rapidly (in terms of biological or geological time) change into the bizarre world girdling master of mechanism she has become, in my view, is language. Language it is which implies abstraction, culture, planning, tradition, innovation, and so on. It is far and away for profound than any physical change from the australopithecine we have had time to achieve. And it kicked our evolution into a Lamarckian-type frame. We have evolved culturally, in addition to physically, because of language.

You say that to a biotech student. Lucky you, my prof didn't hear this.

Yes yes, the human genome is only 1.2% different from chimp's. But beware that there are at least 22,000 genes in a human body and around that in a chimp. Each gene is a segment of tens to hundreds and sometimes thousands of base pairs (two nucleotides). 1.2% different means at least 264 genes coding 264 characteristics are different. From physical appearance to brain development.

Cognition is actually what's believed to be the key factor that led us to such advanced civilization...well, compare to a pack of wolves, that is.

Yes, chimps can "think" and they do use tools just like us. But those 264 different genes, at least, have made us an entirely different species.

My experience of living in this body is that "I" am not my body. I am the subject, in the grammatical sense, and the body merely the object-- that is my relationship to it, in action, and it's the other way to, in sensation. But we feel to "me" like two different things.

And "I" believe that mind IS matter.

 

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[cantdog]

You say that to a biotech student. Lucky you, my prof didn't hear this.

Yes yes, the human genome is only 1.2% different from chimp's. But beware that there are at least 22,000 genes in a human body and around that in a chimp. Each gene is a segment of tens to hundreds and sometimes thousands of base pairs (two nucleotides). 1.2% different means at least 264 genes coding 264 characteristics are different. From physical appearance to brain development.

Okay, we'll pass on that, I never liked it anyway. But the differences in phenotype are not large, and mostly involve brain size.

Cognition is actually what's believed to be the key factor that led us to such advanced civilization...well, compare to a pack of wolves, that is.

Yes, chimps can "think" and they do use tools just like us. But those 264 different genes, at least, have made us an entirely different species.

I'm sure i never insisted we were undifferentiated from chimps, which are not our ancestors, even, in any case. But there have been serious scientists who suggest that language precedes cognition. The 'map' of language on thought is quite pervasive. Moderns, with both cognition and language, use language with which to think. When something is encountered which is not well describable, such as in a dream or a trip, the memory fades very soon, or the description is only a weak approximation. In short, people use language to think with. Thinking is in terms of language. Thus the impression that it was language which helped develop cognition.

And "I" believe that mind IS matter.

And by virtue of your particular DNA code, every single decision you will make is predetermined.

So if you get MS, say. For a period in May of 2008 through November of 2008, your ability to speak is compromised by it. Did your DNA code foresee this, or will you alter certain plans because no one can easily understand your speech?

 

[FatDino]

Okay, we'll pass on that, I never liked it anyway. But the differences in phenotype are not large, and mostly involve brain size.I'm sure i never insisted we were undifferentiated from chimps, which are not our ancestors, even, in any case. But there have been serious scientists who suggest that language precedes cognition. The 'map' of language on thought is quite pervasive. Moderns, with both cognition and language, use language with which to think. When something is encountered which is not well describable, such as in a dream or a trip, the memory fades very soon, or the description is only a weak approximation. In short, people use language to think with. Thinking is in terms of language. Thus the impression that it was language which helped develop cognition.

Language or cognition, which one came first is still an unanswered question. I can't prove my belief in cognition, so I won't discuss about it.

And by virtue of your particular DNA code, every single decision you will make is predetermined.

It's not so much predetermined as processed by your DNA. DNA codes your proteins, your proteins make up every tissue and organ, including your brain. I'd like to think that DNA plays a rather HUGE role in our activities.

So if you get MS, say. For a period in May of 2008 through November of 2008, your ability to speak is compromised by it. Did your DNA code foresee this, or will you alter certain plans because no one can easily understand your speech?

I'm a little confused here. Why is my speech compromised? Did I catch a cold? A sore throat?

 

[cantdog]

Language or cognition, which one came first is still an unanswered question. I can't prove my belief in cognition, so I won't discuss about it.


It's not so much predetermined as processed by your DNA. DNA codes your proteins, your proteins make up every tissue and organ, including your brain. I'd like to think that DNA plays a rather HUGE role in our activities.

So if you get MS, say. For a period in May of 2008 through November of 2008, your ability to speak is compromised by it. Did your DNA code foresee this, or will you alter certain plans because no one can easily understand your speech?

I'm a little confused here. Why is my speech compromised? Did I catch a cold? A sore throat?

Either will do. To me this is a fairly cut and dried reductio. If DNA is the determinant of action, and other creatures like your cold virus or throat coccus also act, is you DNA smart enough to get you to treat your sore throat, cancel a speaking engagement, or whatever is appropriate?

Of course it isn't. However huge its influence, it can't foresee the coccus, virus, or MS (Mulitple Sclerosis) that will at some future date compromise your speech.

So, what enables you to act in an appropriate manner when you need to? DNA? No. Will? Yes.

That's my argument.

 

[cantdog]

That's my argument.

And the reason I make this argument is, if you go along with it, it leaves you with volition to explain. Also, since you already blew it, cognition.

I will cheerfully allow volition and cognition to have their origin in DNA, that is not the question. Now that we have them, where are they? Not in the DNA, still, surely. The storage of memory seems to be in the brain, and the roots of the sensory system also, not in some cellular code, but in the phenotype.

 

[FatDino]

Of course it isn't. However huge its influence, it can't foresee the coccus, virus, or MS (Mulitple Sclerosis) that will at some future date compromise your speech.

Ahhh...MS as in Multiple Sclerosis. Somehow I thought you meant it as Master of Science, the degree. Silly me.

So, what enables you to act in an appropriate manner when you need to? DNA? No. Will? Yes.

And would there be a will if there wasn't any electrons around?

I will cheerfully allow volition and cognition to have their origin in DNA, that is not the question. Now that we have them, where are they? Not in the DNA, still, surely. The storage of memory seems to be in the brain, and the roots of the sensory system also, not in some cellular code, but in the phenotype.

My point is that everything is not only made up of matter, runs on matter and will return to matter but more accurately, it IS matter.

The phenotype is just the outer expression of the dominant genetic traits. Like I said, every thought comes down to biochemical reactions and quantum physics. But it's my belief. If I can't change yours then...well, let's just say I gotta do more research to achieve that goal.