Tops are from Mars, Bottoms are from Venus

[Marquis]

I had a very thought provoking pm conversation recently, that, with the permission of the person I was speaking with, I would like to share with everyone here.

RJMasters wrote on 12-23-2004 12:54 PM:
out of curiosity...why did you ask that? I want to know.

Marquis wrote on 12-26-2004 09:30 PM:
Are you referring to the question about your daughters?

RJMasters wrote on 12-27-2004 02:59 AM:
yep

Marquis wrote on 12-27-2004 02:31 PM:
Just curious if the BDSM hypocracy I feel will go away with age. i.e. I need subs, but don't particularly respect them. I would hate for either of my sisters to turn out to be a sub.

RJMasters wrote on 12-27-2004 03:08 PM:
Why don't you respect submissves?

Is it because you use them as fuck toys, but have little use for them beyond that?

Have you ever looked into the difference between a "trained" submissive and just a sex slave submissive?

Maybe you have a generalized hate for women altogether? Maybe for you, it is justified based off past experiences...I do not know.

But a submissive can be many things bro, they are whom you train them to be. They can be the most depraved sex sluts...or they can be your best friend with loyalty and devotion to you.

The problem I see with so many online subs....is its all about them. What are they gonna get out of it? They shake their tail feathers and Doms dance to their tune. It is no surprise that sex has become the focus of D/s rather than Dominance and submission. Too many Doms thinking with their cocks and not with their brains. In real life....women have this same attitude, in that they think the can manipulate or change a man.

The truth is...A woman(like your sisters or my daughters) have little choice in this world. They either will go to college and get a career in which to provide for themselves, or they will "cling" to another person to be provided for. That person then becomes their "provider".

You know as well as I do how the provision rule works. If one is being provided for, then there are expectations which come along with that provision.

Unfortunately many Doms do not see part of the responsibility to be a "provider". A submissive is a human being, and though the dynamic of the D/s relationship is that the submissive is there for the Dominant's pleasure, the Dominant is there to be a provider for the submissive. Not just a physical level(such as food and clothes and a roof in which to live under), but be a provider on an emotion level, an intelectual level and even a sexual level as well.

This is why some people draw a clear distinction between BDSM and D/s. From time to time on the boards you see this pop up. BDSM online has become nothing more than Kink-for-all and has pushed the real D/s into obscurity.

There are very deep and honoring meanings behind titles such as Dom and Domme and equally true very deep and honoring meanings behind what it means to be a submissive. But as I have said, much of that is sweep aside and replaced by superficial sexuality.

When we let our minds accept this superficial-ness we cheapen what it means to be a Dom or a submissive. Which brings us full circle...in that how can we as men respect that which is cheap?

IMO it is not possible to have a deep appreciation for the D/s lifestyle when we only wish to accept the pleasure of it and fail to understand and accept the responsibilities that come with it.

There is nothing more sacred or beautiful that a woman who seeks to honor, be devoted, serve and please the man who provides for her. Unfortunately, there are not many worthy Dom/mes of such honor, devotion, service or pleasure.

As long as Dom/mes are superficial and self seeking, there cannot be any real expectation for anything real or substantial in the form of submission. And there in lies the difference between a cheap fantasy fuck-fest and a real D/s relationship. One you can respect, the other you cannot.

Respectfully submitted for your ponderings.

I think that as a dom it is sometimes difficult for me to understand the sub perspective. Interestingly enough, my best friend, much to my chagrin, has turned out to be a rather sexually submissive man.

While this makes for good double dating because it's always obvious who should be lined up with who, there are times where his habits and desires truly disgust me. I have struggled for a long time with this dichotomy of emotion I feel towards subs, and I'm wondering if anyone else feels the same way.

The times in my life that I've had to play the submissive role was when I've had no other option, often times when I was literally beaten into submission, and I look back on those who robbed me of my dignity with seething hatred and a strong desire for revenge. I've almost never had a boss I didn't try to challenge in some way or other, whether it be the manager I worked under when I flipped burgers at McDonald's or the constant fights I had with my parents growing up.

I'm not sure how to turn these random tidbits into a cohesive answer to RJ's questions. But I've always found that life gives you as much as you ask for, and I want the world. Why not ask for everything yourself?

 

[catalina_francisco]

Maybe part of the answer lies in submission being a chosen state rather than one in which the submissive feels they have no choice (beaten down, limited life options etc). I am one who had the career, house, life, money in the bank, friends, family, respect, high professional reputation, plenty of men who would have given me anything I asked for, and yet I chose to submit to another on his terms because it was how I wanted to live, not because I had to do it because of xyz, nor because I needed someone to take care of me and tell me how to survive or run my life.

Choice can change the dynamics a lot, and can add to the respect on both sides....as can being a submissive or Dominant because that is who you admit to being, not because your partner chooses to secretly see you as such because it fulfils their own fantasy and desire for something they don't have.

Catalina

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Damn Bro

just toss the dynamite in the dipsy dumpster next time.

You've addressed so many topics at once, this thread will turn into a kaleidoscope before it comes off the forum front burner.

i'll take a stab at one eyebrow raising comment from RJ, you sexist biotch you ... http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/363868/2cool2.gif

Whether she be submissive, slave, bottom, you name it, this ain't the 50s and prior. Sunfox will serve you your balls on a rusty nail and Netzi will ram them down your throat à la flaming kabob if they take that comment seriously. Yes, some couples want Big Daddy to run their entire lives for them and receive material comfort as part and parcel of the relationship.

You do a disservice, however, to the female submissives on this board and elsewhere with high powered jobs by day that have no problem with surrender once they return home. Others fight the inside daily, but still manage to function at a high level of competence. Then we have kittycat and 'Cisco, and i'll leave it right there for her to comment as she will.

Chit, she started before i finished.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: Damn Bro

You do a disservice, however, to the female submissives on this board and elsewhere with high powered jobs by day that have no problem with surrender once they return home. Others fight the inside daily, but still manage to function at a high level of competence. Then we have kittycat and 'Cisco, and i'll leave it right there for her to comment as she will.

Chit, she started before i finished.

Sorry....LOL, well ya know I could have written 2 pages at least here, but sometimes you just realise it isn't worth it. I am sure there are words a plenty from both us and others on this board which reflect a whole different picture to the one painted here, and based on a life we live day in, day out, year in, year out.

Catalina

 

[RJMasters]

Re: Damn Bro

just toss the dynamite in the dipsy dumpster next time.

You've addressed so many topics at once, this thread will turn into a kaleidoscope before it comes off the forum front burner.

i'll take a stab at one eyebrow raising comment from RJ, you sexist biotch you ... http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/363868/2cool2.gif

Whether she be submissive, slave, bottom, you name it, this ain't the 50s and prior. Sunfox will serve you your balls on a rusty nail and Netzi will ram them down your throat à la flaming kabob if they take that comment seriously. Yes, some couples want Big Daddy to run their entire lives for them and receive material comfort as part and parcel of the relationship.

You do a disservice, however, to the female submissives on this board and elsewhere with high powered jobs by day that have no problem with surrender once they return home. Others fight the inside daily, but still manage to function at a high level of competence. Then we have kittycat and 'Cisco, and i'll leave it right there for her to comment as she will.

Chit, she started before i finished.

2 comments...

first keep in mind this was a PM directed to M and centered on his comment about disrespecting submissives. I nhis case it would be femal submissives. (i.e. his sisters and daughtrs if they should choose to become a submissive).

Second, I am not a sexist bitch as I would apply the same statement equally to men. They can either support themselves or find a woman who would support them.

This is a simple statement of reality, if you are not going to support yourself...then you are more than likely going to find someone who will support you. Weather male or female.

No comments were meant to be flamitory of anyone's choices. I see the Dominant role as a "provider". Sorry if that sounds oldfashion to your way of thinking.

My focus was on how a Dom provider needs to assume responsibility not just on a home, food and clothing type basis, but also on an emotional, intellectual and physical basis as well as provide safety and protection.

That is not to say that in some relationships, the submissive actually goes to work to support the live-ly-hood(sp).

The point of the post was to draw attention to a mutual respect of what a providing Dom can give a submissive and what a submissive can give back to the Dom.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: Re: Damn Bro

2 comments...

first keep in mind this was a PM directed to M and centered on his comment about disrespecting submissives. I nhis case it would be femal submissives. (i.e. his sisters and daughtrs if they should choose to become a submissive).

Second, I am not a sexist bitch as I would apply the same statement equally to men. They can either support themselves or find a woman who would support them.

This is a simple statement of reality, if you are not going to support yourself...then you are more than likely going to find someone who will support you. Weather male or female.

Um, I gathered it was about female submissives but don't see it as mattering whether it was male or female. Not everyone is guided in their choices by money and being provided for etc. For instance, in my search I had the opportunity twice to be with Dominants 24/7, and married to them, who could have provided financially for me to the max as in millions....and they were nice men to boot. Unfortunately money didn't come into my idea of whether I would accept them as a Dominant or not, just as it hasn't with Francisco.

I wanted something that money could not buy and as he often says, even if we lived under a bridge we would be together under that bridge. So where does the submissive who provides their own income but submits to a 24/7 relationship fit if the criteria becomes based on the fact they need to find another to support them not to submit to?

Catalina

 

[RJMasters]

Re: Re: Re: Damn Bro

Um, I gathered it was about female submissives but don't see it as mattering whether it was male or female. Not everyone is guided in their choices by money and being provided for etc. For instance, in my search I had the opportunity twice to be with Dominants 24/7, and married to them, who could have provided financially for me to the max as in millions....and they were nice men to boot. Unfortunately money didn't come into my idea of whether I would accept them as a Dominant or not, just as it hasn't with Francisco.

I wanted something that money could not buy and as he often says, even if we lived under a bridge we would be together under that bridge. So where does the submissive who provides their own income but submits to a 24/7 relationship fit if the criteria becomes based on the fact they need to find another to support them not to submit to?

Catalina

Agreed...which is why I wrote.

A submissive is a human being, and though the dynamic of the D/s relationship is that the submissive is there for the Dominant's pleasure, the Dominant is there to be a provider for the submissive. Not just a physical level(such as food and clothes and a roof in which to live under), but be a provider on an emotion level, an intelectual level and even a sexual level as well.

you made your choice to be with a man who could provide you more than just the basics of life. I am sure you have a respect for him, and he also respects you and your gift back to him.

 

[dolf]

Re: Re: Damn Bro

No comments were meant to be flamitory of anyone's choices. I see the Dominant role as a "provider". Sorry if that sounds oldfashion to your way of thinking.

My focus was on how a Dom provider needs to assume responsibility not just on a home, food and clothing type basis, but also on an emotional, intellectual and physical basis as well as provide safety and protection.

The point of the post was to draw attention to a mutual respect of what a providing Dom can give a submissive and what a submissive can give back to the Dom.

that's my thinking too...ok, some people will be surprised but those who really know me will find this reply predictable.
xx

 

[Kajira Callista]

Hmmm i thought that was a very nice starting post to a thread that could be real good. I didnt interpret anything that was posted as inflammatory in any way. What i saw was a person privately explaining his own personal life and or views... very clearly i might add.
Marquis, you are new to all this and a very dominant man. You just need to find a way to fine tune what is already there naturally and widen your views.

 

[dolf]

Marquis, we've talked about this a little and i think this is more a trust issue with you than a genuine disregard of all subs.

you're not as cold as you think and the right woman will earn your trust one day i hope
xx

 

[Netzach]

I'm not so inflamed. It's true, what RJ said, in today's economic realities, we're either tethered pretty tightly or tough as fuck, men and women.

I just have a very different outlook about the sub thing.

My respect for a Top goes up 100 fold when they *are* flexible in terms of submission/switching. I would never bottom or submit to someone who saw themselves as exclusively Dominant back in my day. I see that as being limited by fears, frankly. Whether that's true or not, it's how I percieve it.

That may seem unfair, there are fine people here who never would consider either, and there were fine people I passed up based on that particular prejudice of mine. I have a right to be attracted to whatever I want, though, and I don't find exclusively Dominant people who have never passed through some kind of bottom/switch process attractive. I can't really relate to them.

I feel like if someone would never bottom to me they don't really trust me, they may as well be vanilla. There will never be total intimacy between me and another person unless they surrender to me on some level. I used to think this only had to be periodic, to reassure me in my own surrendering, over time I realized I prefer it to be the bulk of the time. I also realized that I can go fine for years on end without being the one submitting. It can be fun, but it's not the fuel that makes this car go.

Basically, I see flexibility there as a stamp of someone who is so secure in himself or herself that they don't give a rat's ass about public opinion.

Now being submissive in a D/s context is one thing, being malleable across the board is another. I might also find a guy an intolerable pussy if he's socially always willing to be pushed around, and begin to feel contempt. I know I do for women who appear spineless in the face of any male attention.

Editing to add: I am pretty much the world's worst employee, also and I don't deal well with authority that I feel is less intelligent than I am, no matter what the circumstance. I would be totally unfit for any army, convent, or cult.

Tha said, I will bend over backwards for the rare authority that 1. I percieve as smarter, more experienced, and wiser than I am 2. Doesn't seem invested in the hierarchy or what people think, truly, and has been the world's bitch before 3. I have a sexual fixation/attraction to, and they just grab me that way 4. in sexual relationships, would trust me enough to be my bitch.

What I do in the bedroom is consistent with my overall demeanor, but I will say it's not *always* consistent with my overall demeanor, I try not to import my politics into every fuck.

 

[Caitlynne]

Marquis wrote on 12-27-2004 02:31 PM:
Just curious if the BDSM hypocracy I feel will go away with age. i.e. I need subs, but don't particularly respect them. I would hate for either of my sisters to turn out to be a sub.

And off onto another topic brought up in the first post.....

AA is right, there are so many issues brought up in that exchange that this will be a long discussion before we've heard from all the corners of the BDSM forum. I'd like to begin by responding to the above statement.

Oddly enough, this attitude and POV was the last barrier to 'accepting' my submissive nature. I saw this POV as a prevalent one in the Dominants I observed in real life and later on line. I had to think about this particular perspective for a long time before I could come to grips with being something so many men (and women) could not respect.

I am smart enough and emotionally mature enough to realize that what someone else respects or not is their issue--not mine. That as long as I am true to myself, that is all that matters to me. BUT, I still had a hard time coming to terms with this particular attitude in Dominants. Especially since it is not a need or a kink of mine to be humiliated or viewed in this fashion.

I circled all around misogyny, and what it means. How it can be at the center of this kind of attitude. I toyed with the idea that perhaps it was an attitude that had some merit. How could I surrender my will so completely to another and have any respect for myself? And if I could not respect myself, why would any Dominant?

Ultimately, I came to this conclusion for me, myself and I-- I have to be true to who I am, and if a Dominant thinks that who I am is not worthy of respect, then most likely I won't be submitting to him.

I tend to need inspiration in my submission. In other words, I don't have an overwhelming need to submit in "any" dominant in order to have my submissive needs met. Just as I had no need to marry 'any' man, just to be married. Once I feel inspired, feel the desire to serve or submit, well that is a different story. I've been lucky, I tend to be inspired by men who don't have this particular POV. (Odd don't you think)

This isn't to say that there aren't men who hold with the idea, and women who can can't 'be' held in that opinion. There are, and they are quite content from my observation. It's all about fitting pieces of a puzzle together, and as with most puzzles pieces form different puzzles can't be easily exchanged.

IMO, we all have to break through the culturally held opinions of what is 'worthy' of respect' and what isn't. Our culture holds near and dear the concepts of independence and dominance, aggression and being on top. It does not hold near and dear the concepts of dependence and submission, responsiveness and being on the bottom. All of these things inform the POV Marquis has expressed. And it is not all that uncommon, both in BDSM circles and in vanilla ones.

I'll be honest, if I was looking for acceptance of who I am I wouldn't go near many Dominants. Far too many of them see me (and submissives like me) as a means to an end. They need us in order to fulfill their needs for Dominance but do not respect anyone (man or woman) who would surrender their will to another voluntarily. I think what gets missed is the dynamic of D/s itself. The two do not dance alone in a vacuum, they need each other in order to make it work.

For me, part of my willingness to submit is that I want to experience my partner in his Domination, and the only way to fully experience it, is to fully submit. I seek to experience the men I have submitted to in all their power and in all their Dominance. I seek to "know" them in this particular way. My desire to experience them as fully in their power as possible is one element of my desire to submit. Conversely, the men I have known wanted to experience me fully in my submissive state. So we made a good match.

We can get all hung up in the relative merits of submission and whether or not it is worthy of respect, but ultimately it is an inner 'acceptance' of who and what we are that matters. This cuts both ways. A Dominant who cannot find it in himself to respect *any* submissive has his own problems, especially if he is Dominant and needs someone to submit to him. If his needs don't extend that far, then all is well and good, although he may run out of partners in the end as 'acceptance' is something that sort of is a necessity in a relationship. But then again, there is a match to any kind of 'kink' we can think of, one has to just be willing to keep on looking. For every Dominant who does not respect a submissive, there is a submissive out there who needs to not be respected.

I'm not speaking directly to Marquis here, I'm only responding to the notion that many Dominants I've seen and met fall into this kind of thinking. At least Marquis is aware of his own opinions and is exploring them. (or seems to be)

Just my 2 cents to add to the pot....

~ cait

 

[Marquis]

Maybe part of the answer lies in submission being a chosen state rather than one in which the submissive feels they have no choice (beaten down, limited life options etc). I am one who had the career, house, life, money in the bank, friends, family, respect, high professional reputation, plenty of men who would have given me anything I asked for, and yet I chose to submit to another on his terms because it was how I wanted to live, not because I had to do it because of xyz, nor because I needed someone to take care of me and tell me how to survive or run my life.

Choice can change the dynamics a lot, and can add to the respect on both sides....as can being a submissive or Dominant because that is who you admit to being, not because your partner chooses to secretly see you as such because it fulfils their own fantasy and desire for something they don't have.

Catalina

You make a good point about choice, but I think arguments of choice and free will tend to be very circular. Regardless, I still have a hard time understanding why people would willingly give up power. People fight hard for the power they have, and even maintaining power rarely comes without a price. I suppose you could make the argument that subs are simply benevolent, but I refuse to believe they're any less self-interested than every other living creature.

 

[Marquis]

Re: Damn Bro

just toss the dynamite in the dipsy dumpster next time.

You've addressed so many topics at once, this thread will turn into a kaleidoscope before it comes off the forum front burner.

i'll take a stab at one eyebrow raising comment from RJ, you sexist biotch you ... http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/363868/2cool2.gif

Whether she be submissive, slave, bottom, you name it, this ain't the 50s and prior. Sunfox will serve you your balls on a rusty nail and Netzi will ram them down your throat à la flaming kabob if they take that comment seriously. Yes, some couples want Big Daddy to run their entire lives for them and receive material comfort as part and parcel of the relationship.

You do a disservice, however, to the female submissives on this board and elsewhere with high powered jobs by day that have no problem with surrender once they return home. Others fight the inside daily, but still manage to function at a high level of competence. Then we have kittycat and 'Cisco, and i'll leave it right there for her to comment as she will.

Chit, she started before i finished.

This topic has nothing to do with feminism. To say that doms are not providers seems a little blind though.

Unfortunately, I am forced to defer to your more experienced opinion, but it seems to me that there are definite characteristics that go along with being submissive and seeking someone for guidance and discipline seems like a large part of it.

I, on the other hand, do my best to ask nothing from anyone. I am financially independent and have not had parental supervision since my mother died when I was 17 years old. My grandmother abandoned her when she was 14 and she survived by sleeping with sleazy older men like my father until she could put herself through college and begin supporting herself. I was raised to be self-reliant, and it is something I believe in with religious fervor.

I believe it is for this reason that I attract and enjoy the company of submissive women. I try to project the image that if you play for my team, things will be ok, and a lot of women need this. I am happy to provide for them.

 

[Marquis]

Marquis, you are new to all this and a very dominant man. You just need to find a way to fine tune what is already there naturally and widen your views.

I have no doubts about this. I am sure much understanding will come with age. I am only 22 and as you say, still finding myself in many ways. I started this thread to help me see different perspectives, and try to be very open minded and fair despite the fact that I will not pull punches.

 

[Marquis]

Marquis, we've talked about this a little and i think this is more a trust issue with you than a genuine disregard of all subs.

you're not as cold as you think and the right woman will earn your trust one day i hope
xx

This is possible. I am emotionally damaged goods in some ways, but I think my trust issues are a seperate matter than the one we're discussing here.

By the way, you said I was cold, not me.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Submissives are the strong ones...the brave ones. We the Dominants have little to lose as our vulnerability is not on the line.

We the Dominants are more than kink providers We are responsible for the emotional and physical well being of another. Personally I do not "provide" in any material way for those I own or control.

Being dominant and being "A" Dominant can be worlds apart in reality.

 

[Marquis]

I'm not so inflamed. It's true, what RJ said, in today's economic realities, we're either tethered pretty tightly or tough as fuck, men and women.

I just have a very different outlook about the sub thing.

My respect for a Top goes up 100 fold when they *are* flexible in terms of submission/switching. I would never bottom or submit to someone who saw themselves as exclusively Dominant back in my day. I see that as being limited by fears, frankly. Whether that's true or not, it's how I percieve it.

Your perceptions are probably accurate on some level, although I think you're using fear in a more general way than its usual connotation implies. I could say that it is the same kind of fear that prevents me from experimenting with homosexuality. While I have no interest in homosexuality, there are lots of other things I do not think I have interest in, but would be willing to try to make sure. Snowboarding for example.

However there are some doors I simply choose not to open because I do not care to see what is on the other side. Most of the boundaries of our lives are created by fear.

Ironically enough, just last week I agreed to keep my arms behind my back as the Puerto Rican girl I posted a picture with earlier kissed and licked up and down my body and told me I was "her baby to take care of". Not that the sensation was bad, but the sense of shame I felt was unbearable. I gritted my teeth and waited for my turn.

 

[Marquis]

And off onto another topic brought up in the first post.....

AA is right, there are so many issues brought up in that exchange that this will be a long discussion before we've heard from all the corners of the BDSM forum. I'd like to begin by responding to the above statement.

Oddly enough, this attitude and POV was the last barrier to 'accepting' my submissive nature. I saw this POV as a prevalent one in the Dominants I observed in real life and later on line. I had to think about this particular perspective for a long time before I could come to grips with being something so many men (and women) could not respect.

I am smart enough and emotionally mature enough to realize that what someone else respects or not is their issue--not mine. That as long as I am true to myself, that is all that matters to me. BUT, I still had a hard time coming to terms with this particular attitude in Dominants. Especially since it is not a need or a kink of mine to be humiliated or viewed in this fashion.

I circled all around misogyny, and what it means. How it can be at the center of this kind of attitude. I toyed with the idea that perhaps it was an attitude that had some merit. How could I surrender my will so completely to another and have any respect for myself? And if I could not respect myself, why would any Dominant?

Ultimately, I came to this conclusion for me, myself and I-- I have to be true to who I am, and if a Dominant thinks that who I am is not worthy of respect, then most likely I won't be submitting to him.

I tend to need inspiration in my submission. In other words, I don't have an overwhelming need to submit in "any" dominant in order to have my submissive needs met. Just as I had no need to marry 'any' man, just to be married. Once I feel inspired, feel the desire to serve or submit, well that is a different story. I've been lucky, I tend to be inspired by men who don't have this particular POV. (Odd don't you think)

This isn't to say that there aren't men who hold with the idea, and women who can can't 'be' held in that opinion. There are, and they are quite content from my observation. It's all about fitting pieces of a puzzle together, and as with most puzzles pieces form different puzzles can't be easily exchanged.

IMO, we all have to break through the culturally held opinions of what is 'worthy' of respect' and what isn't. Our culture holds near and dear the concepts of independence and dominance, aggression and being on top. It does not hold near and dear the concepts of dependence and submission, responsiveness and being on the bottom. All of these things inform the POV Marquis has expressed. And it is not all that uncommon, both in BDSM circles and in vanilla ones.

I'll be honest, if I was looking for acceptance of who I am I wouldn't go near many Dominants. Far too many of them see me (and submissives like me) as a means to an end. They need us in order to fulfill their needs for Dominance but do not respect anyone (man or woman) who would surrender their will to another voluntarily. I think what gets missed is the dynamic of D/s itself. The two do not dance alone in a vacuum, they need each other in order to make it work.

For me, part of my willingness to submit is that I want to experience my partner in his Domination, and the only way to fully experience it, is to fully submit. I seek to experience the men I have submitted to in all their power and in all their Dominance. I seek to "know" them in this particular way. My desire to experience them as fully in their power as possible is one element of my desire to submit. Conversely, the men I have known wanted to experience me fully in my submissive state. So we made a good match.

We can get all hung up in the relative merits of submission and whether or not it is worthy of respect, but ultimately it is an inner 'acceptance' of who and what we are that matters. This cuts both ways. A Dominant who cannot find it in himself to respect *any* submissive has his own problems, especially if he is Dominant and needs someone to submit to him. If his needs don't extend that far, then all is well and good, although he may run out of partners in the end as 'acceptance' is something that sort of is a necessity in a relationship. But then again, there is a match to any kind of 'kink' we can think of, one has to just be willing to keep on looking. For every Dominant who does not respect a submissive, there is a submissive out there who needs to not be respected.

I'm not speaking directly to Marquis here, I'm only responding to the notion that many Dominants I've seen and met fall into this kind of thinking. At least Marquis is aware of his own opinions and is exploring them. (or seems to be)

Just my 2 cents to add to the pot....

~ cait

Interesting comments. I will have to ponder this further.

 

[Marquis]

Submissives are the strong ones...the brave ones. We the Dominants have little to lose as our vulnerability is not on the line.

We the Dominants are more than kink providers We are responsible for the emotional and physical well being of another. Personally I do not "provide" in any material way for those I own or control.

Being dominant and being "A" Dominant can be worlds apart in reality.

That's not true.

I still feel very vulnerable when I first ask a girl that I know as vanilla to submit to me. I have gotten bad reactions in the past, and I'm sure I will get them in the future.

 

[Marquis]

Oh shit, I just realized I mislabeled this whole fucking thread!

Mother of all Freudians!

 

[Kajira Callista]

That's not true.

I still feel very vulnerable when I first ask a girl that I know as vanilla to submit to me. I have gotten bad reactions in the past, and I'm sure I will get them in the future.

well, there is problem number one. Why are you asking vanilla girls to submit?

 

[Marquis]

Is there no way to undo this, it was meant to read Tops are from Mars, Bottoms are from Venus.

I wonder how many others didn't notice...

Freudians work in reverse too you know.

 

[Netzach]

Everything you say makes total intellectual sense to me, if that makes sense. There are people who don't like it, don't want it, and would gain nothing from it, and that's totally fine. Not everyone in the world needs to suck cock or hang glide.

But if you wanna get with me, yes. You do need to suck cock and hang glide.

It's a barrier for me, maybe as knee-jerk as what you're saying about how you view submissives. If a person isn't going to bottom to me, it's not going to happen.

To be fair... would I bottom to M? To my slave, even?

I would, in a kind of vacuum.

However, neither of these men is going to take the initiative to make it happen, it's not their need nor their temprement. But the trust is there on my part. I wouldn't feel like I was cheapening myself, but I would feel like I'd be fucking up their equilibruim beyond repair as they are now, so it's a moot point. Plus, they'd suck at it. Though M is going to a rope workshop with me and I'm sure I'll want to be tied as well as tie and then we can go on to tag-team. It's all pretty technical and sensual though, that's about as much as he can take of that.

 

[Caitlynne]

Regardless, I still have a hard time understanding why people would willingly give up power. People fight hard for the power they have, and even maintaining power rarely comes without a price. I suppose you could make the argument that subs are simply benevolent, but I refuse to believe they're any less self-interested than every other living creature.

I don't think that submissives are merely benevolent, or that they are not serving their own self-interests. They are in my opinion. Their interests simply are to serve someone who inspires them.

I can only speak for myself, but it has to do with what is created once submission has occurred. What is created in the relationship. [I'm talking about relationships now, not negotiated scenes where all parties will run off to their respected homes and smile as they fall asleep.]

I'm not talking about some romantic notion or anything like that, but about the unique dynamic that is created in D/s. It is palatable for me, I can feel it. When I feel it, it inspires me to give up power in order to feel more of it. It really is just that simple for me.

Now does it happen easily? No, not easily. I'm a bit of a control freak, and I've developed my own personal sense of power, both personally and professionally. I wanted that power, I worked for it and no, no one is just coming along to grab it from me.

But let the 'right' someone come along. Oh it doesn't have to be all hearts and flowers, it doesn't have to be a big emotional anything--but under the right circumstances, the inspiration to submit is almost overwhelming. And that stems from a desire to be in that D/s dynamic--to be part of that dance. I don't feel it on top, I feel it on the bottom. I function well on top, but it's not the same for me. Not even close.

Fundamentally, for anyone to give up personal power, they have to have a stronger desire. It's just that simple. The fact that you can't 'see' it, is perhaps because you've never experienced a desire that would cause you to surrender some part of your own will in order to accomplish. But there are countless examples in real life (non-BDSM examples) where people will give up personal power in order to do something seemingly powerless. Sometimes we understand it, sometimes we don't, but ultimately it's about their choice to give it up.

Religious people give up their personal power. Why do they do it? Ostensibly it is about a greater desire, a desire to serve God. Experience God in as intimate a manner as possible in their experience.

In WWII kamikaze pilots went off to die? Why wouold they do that? It certainly is losing more than a little power, it was losing their life. Yet they did it.

What is present is a stronger desire, one that overwhelms (or tops LOL) the desire for personal safety or to retain personal power.

Now I certainly wouldn't lump all submissives into one big category, but certainly some of us would fall into this kind of category. We do it to achieve something greater in our opinion. We give up personal power to achieve something more fulfilling. Since many of us have personal power to begin with, we actually know what we are giving up and usually exactly why. In my case, it is a lot more complex than just getting my kink on with a whip and some rope. (course the whip and rope are also nice... )

Of course it might be as simple as this.. you're a dominant and dominant men don't give up power, they take it. ~grins~

~ Cait