Top-opolis

[Pure]

I honor your insights, ed. At the same time, there's a Sadean tradition of transgression as a vital element of eroticism. OK, I give you violence, emotion, but how about excercized upon a nun whom you've surprised masturbating with her crucifix??

 

[evesdream]

I honor your insights, ed. At the same time, there's a Sadean tradition of transgression as a vital element of eroticism. OK, I give you violence, emotion, but how about excercized upon a nun whom you've surprised masturbating with her crucifix??

You think I'm giving transgression short shrift, but it's only because it's not what I'm interested in focussing on. I agree with you, transgression is a vital element, but it's not the point of the destination if you get my meaning. Usually, the urge to transgress needs to be driven by something more than itself for it to hold interest for me.

Unlike deSade, I don't need to exhert myself trying to be transgressive, or monitoring it. Whether I embrace it or not, it happens, and to a relatively harmless degree with me, fortunately.

At the same time, even if my own dirty mind seems to be a betrayer of all politics I hold dear...for someone who is a sadist, I imagine overcoming the conflict of transgression would be more overwhelming and important focus.

 

[evesdream]

surprising a nun with the crucifix...yes, i hate when that happens

I guess you are saying that in this scenario, the nun might be getting off on the wickedness of what she's doing? but I'd say that she's getting off on anger and repression (or maybe she just really loves jesus). I don't know about the perv walking in on her though

 

[Pure]

Hi ed,

you said

Someone asked me about my interest or take on the "dark" side of sex. Well, that isn't my view of it. Not "darkness" or "evil", simply emotion, amoral.
When I enjoy something sexual that pushes the limits, it isn't moral limits that I want to be concerned with (which is what the word dark suggests to me) it's pushing emotional limits and being able to show oneself and respond emotionally, or un-reservedly. Which is challenge enough!
For some people (who I do not understand)this doesn't have to be a violent or angry exchange, but the violence/force/the throwing of weight, to me, expresses something as right and sincere as tenderness. I would feel lied to without it.
When it comes to sexuality and sexual response, and my most bloody or self-destructive fantasies, the violence and pain are requisite but secondary to the exchange of intense emotions that go with it. The violence (given or accepted, real or fantasized) is a perfect conductor for emotional responses to a whole world of things.

I hear you. There is an intensity of emotional exchange/interaction and an openness. Violence is secondary as is any 'transgressive' element. They are not 'ends' in themselves.

In Sade, of course, transgression is not the aim. "The volume of the emission is proportional to the evil being done" (roughly).
It's the jouissance.

We have to ask, also, what is the basis for emotional response? Well if it's in an incestuous situation, that surely conditions the responses, no? For some of us, the emotion situation around a perverse act is more or most highly charged.

best,
J.

 

[Pure]

While topopolis is a haven for certain dissidents and misfit pervs, there's an impression in some quarters that the central belief or core of it is represented in the statement that most doms are inwardly very angry, and potentially enraged at women.

That's an inaccurate impression, imo. (This is not to say the belief is untrue.)

There seem to be six issues with lots of overlap: Though maybe my biases are too present to make a fair selection.

1)Kink vs Domination

2)Routine vs Improv

3)Bottom vs Top in control

4)Huggy therapist vs animal trainer [Dom/me//Top as ..]

5)Good sex vs. Evil sex.

6)Nurture vs Rapacity

An overarching or uber-theme might be order vs. chaos.

Rather than attempt a summary or essay on each, I'll just see if anyone wants to talk about any of them. And if anyone of the Academie (establishment) ventures forth.

 

[evesdream]

....
I hear you. There is an intensity of emotional exchange/interaction and an openness. Violence is secondary as is any 'transgressive' element. They are not 'ends' in themselves.

In Sade, of course, transgression is not the aim. "The volume of the emission is proportional to the evil being done" (roughly).
It's the jouissance.

We have to ask, also, what is the basis for emotional response? Well if it's in an incestuous situation, that surely conditions the responses, no? For some of us, the emotion situation around a perverse act is more or most highly charged.

best,
J.

Ha, I see. We agree. Thanks for clarifying your view of Sade. If we disagree it's probably only on the fine point of "what is transgressive". I think it's also important to ask where the urge to transgress originates. Is it a natural human urge towards balance or a natural urge towards anarchy and rebellion? And why sexual?

best, eve

 

[rosco rathbone]

....While topopolis is a haven for certain dissidents and misfit pervs, there's an impression in some quarters that the central belief or core of it is represented in the statement that most doms are inwardly very angry, and potentially enraged at women......

Most? I don't know. A lot, I think. Why else would you want to torture someone?

 

[Netzach]

....While topopolis is a haven for certain dissidents and misfit pervs, there's an impression in some quarters that the central belief or core of it is represented in the statement that most doms are inwardly very angry, and potentially enraged at women......

Most? I don't know. A lot, I think. Why else would you want to torture someone?

A.

Morbid pseudoscientific curiosity. What'll he do when I apply the needles to the skin of his scrotum?

B.

Out of the goodness of my philanthropic, altruistic self I am providing him with a direct hookup to the Big Universal Shit, like, ever seen A Man Called Horse? I'm so thoughtful that way.

C.

Wheee it's fun. I'm less enraged by the male (or female) receiving my torment than I am interested in my own pleasure at this moment. They don't anger me, they don't faze me, really. (this is, for me, the edgiest aspect of my sadism)

D.

Weird, I feel more connected to this sufferer than I ever had before. The loving sado-empath isn't necessarily softening the blow, in fact they cannot do that in respect for their maso and their maso's need. I beat you because it has to be this way, my love. Whack.


Also, need we discount that a lot of women do this with other women, a lot of men do this with other men? There is so much going on in the world outside a bunch of heteros getting it on. It could, I imagine, be argued that this boils down to self hatred, but I just don't necessarily buy that, either.

I just think we humans are more complex and contradictory than the obvious read.

 

[evesdream]

Netzach, you are right on.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I don't think the anger has to be man-towards-woman for it to be the motivating force and I definitely don't think it's the only motivation. I do think it is a very under-recognized factor in this little pervoverse.

Netzach, I imagine that the "edgier" aspect of your sadism is edgy because there is an anger in it somewhere. Sorry, can't help but psychoanalyze people I know nothing about, it's my perogative as mayor.

 

[Pure]

RR opined


I don't think the anger has to be man-towards-woman for it to be the motivating force and I definitely don't think it's the only motivation. I do think it is a very under-recognized factor in this little pervoverse.

Netzach, I imagine that the "edgier" aspect of your sadism is edgy because there is an anger in it somewhere. Sorry, can't help but psychoanalyze people I know nothing about, it's my perogative as mayor.

Netzach had said,


C.

Wheee it's fun. I'm less enraged by the male (or female) receiving my torment than I am interested in my own pleasure at this moment. They don't anger me, they don't faze me, really. (this is, for me, the edgiest aspect of my sadism)

Delight, even playful joy, in cruelty. Sounds right to me, for some cases. Come on, RR, does the cat play with and ultimately eat the mouse because it's _angry_ with it? Ever, as a kid, take a magnifying glass and focus the sun's rays, burningly, on a bug?

Also hinted at in N's 'it has to be this way, my love': I torture you because Nature/the Universe is cruel and 'tortures' (to speak anthropomorphically) all of us. Hence I join in the flow (of cruelty), and even master it, for a moment.

There are further possibilities than those listed by N, as she knows. I mentioned one in an earlier Sade posting:

I torture and because that body represents mine, and its writhing becomes, vicariously my own, whereby I vividly come to life. (Hinted at, in N's item D.)

Nietzsche lists a number of possibilities also: I torture you in order to celebrate my victory.

Netzach, you are wicked cool.

J.

 

[Netzach]

I don't think the anger has to be man-towards-woman for it to be the motivating force and I definitely don't think it's the only motivation. I do think it is a very under-recognized factor in this little pervoverse.

Netzach, I imagine that the "edgier" aspect of your sadism is edgy because there is an anger in it somewhere. Sorry, can't help but psychoanalyze people I know nothing about, it's my perogative as mayor.

Oh, I'd say it's more scary because of a complete disregard for the autonomy, subjectivity and screams of the other. The tried and true cat and mouse analogy applies here.

Would I say that not one eensy bit of anger lives on the sea floor of the question "why does Ms. Stern like to make the little boys n' girls cry?" Hardly. You just happened to ask why else anyone would want to torture someone.

And personally, I don't find the anger a very pithy or fascinating motive, it's very conventional in my case. A bunch of absolute bitches in high school made my life bad, so I fantasized about raping passing businessmen with the muzzles of unloaded guns just to see the looks on their faces and watch them cry and plead.

As unconventional as that may seem, I find it pretty boring from the psychoanalytic perspective, kind of like, duh.

The anger, it might be added, plays a much bigger part in the motivations of my fantasies than my realities. A B C and D are much more the fuel of my relationship and its particulars.

I do have to say that I appreciate your willingness to look at the motive we dare not name. It is highly suspect to talk about the remote possibility that some of what we think about is not pretty, shiny, and whole-grain goodness infused.

But, I think there's a difference and a gap in what we think about and what we do or need to do. I don't think I'll die unfulfilled if I don't tickle a Pillsbury exec's sphincter with a 45.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I like the point about sado-empaths. That feels right.

"Play" as in cat-and-bug may well be a torture motive for some or many but it doesn't make any sense to me, personally. "Joining in the flow of cruelty" sounds all well and good and Bataillesque, but I'd just say "Why.....what are you getting out of joining the flow of cruelty?" I never tortured bugs as a kid actually, I was far too tender-hearted. In fact, I once shot my best friend point blank with an air rifle when he shot a wasps' nest with Raid after I'd told him not to. I went fishing once in my life and my first fish swallowed the hook. I felt so bad for ripping its guts out that I never fished again.


I find the anger issue fascinating because, as Netzach says, there is so much denial about it. What is I really can't speak for anyone but myself, but I am intuitively certain that there are a lot of male tops/doms exactly like me who have not paid their topopolis city state and local taxes. I am on record as referring to them as "the constituency" and the "body of gnomes "and I think they should register and vote for me in the next election.

There may well be non-male and/or non-heterosexual gnomes; I wouldn't presume to say and frankly I am interested in them only in theory.

I just realized something. I'm not even INTO bsdm. Almost nothing in this forum speaks to me. I think that's why Marquis' discussion of Max Hardcore/Rocco Siffredi -bdsm or not? rang a bell. I am not interested in bondage, play, toys, torture techniques, power exchange, slave-master protocol...All I'm into is straightup Max/Rocco hatefucking. I've been told by someone supposedly deeply in the know that the kind of humiliation stuff that floats my boat is regarded as "advanced play/for experts only/kids don't try this at home" in the bdsm world (I took that with a ball of salt). Maybe that's why I don't get this torture stuff-I am trying to do an apples-oranges comparison. I've been known to use duct tape or handcuffs to immobilize someone, and from time to time I like to take off my belt and deliver an old-school asswhipping, but I have never been interested in the slightest in the careful, intricate, ritualistic tortures that seem to be the main end of bdsm play-too much attention to the "sub" or bottom for me.

rosco

 

[rosco rathbone]

I got this from a personal ad, it reminds me of the "writer"dom.....incidentally, the ad said "if you are looking for someone to give you rough sex, you aren't submissive, just a little kinky"......

 

[Pure]

RR:I just realized something. I'm not even INTO bsdm.

You've heard the saying "Marx was not a Marxist"

There were gays before the Gay Alliance
Fetishists before the Leather League

Surely it's occurred to you that Sade was not "into BDSM" officially defined, and as proclaimed in this forum, and would be drummed out of any such group as Til Eulenspiegel immediately.

We aberrants pre-existed the Aberrants' Association (sometime known by its familiar acronym), and will shove our forearms up the ass of the first "Official AA Spokesperson" to be a guest on Letterman, piss on the priest at that one's gravesite, and felch holy wafers from the rear portal of the nun assisting him.

Within the law, of course.

 

[WriterDom]

I got this from a personal ad, it reminds me of the "writer"dom.....B]

I thought you'd have a new act by now. I guess the old adage is true, if you don't have me in your mouth, you have me on your mind is true. Please paypal me a dollar for returning your thread to the front page.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I thought you'd have a new act by now. I guess the old adage is true, if you don't have me in your mouth, you have me on your mind is true. Please paypal me a dollar for returning your thread to the front page.

Still ignoring me, I see.

I'll find someone else to pick on when a suitably amusing target comes along to replace you. You don't have much competition here for joker in a executioner's getup.

 

[WriterDom]

Still ignoring me, I see.

I'll find someone else to pick on when a suitably amusing target comes along to replace you. You don't have much competition here for joker in a executioner's getup.

Hell, I've ignored Lit for 6 weeks. Nice to see that you are still obsessed with me. Did that cock hold dude resist your advances? Sorry, but I can't help you there.

 

[psiberzerker]

I too must thank someone for bringing this back up front. I had no idea this was here, now I have some place to go for research. Take that however best pleases you there, Rathbone.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I too must thank someone for bringing this back up front. I had no idea this was here, now I have some place to go for research. Take that however best pleases you there, Rathbone.

It's good to have you here, bezerker. You are bombastic, arrogant, condescending, opinionated, and a bad speller. But not boring. Welcome to topopolis.

ratso rizzco

 

[rosco rathbone]

Hell, I've ignored Lit for 6 weeks. Nice to see that you are still obsessed with me. Did that cock hold dude resist your advances? Sorry, but I can't help you there.

You, on the other hand, are just a tool. A laughingstock. A figure of fun.

 

[evesdream]

dang.

 

[rosco rathbone]

dang.

Shouldn't that be " dANg!!!" ??

 

[evesdream]

Shouldn't that be " dANg!!!" ??

you gots it

 

[WriterDom]

You, on the other hand, are just a tool. A laughingstock. A figure of fun.

And you are someone who wants to taste homeless cock. That we know. It's documented. Or should your mom brush her teeth before she sends you off to school?