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Olivia_Yearns
funny
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that's an interesting comment. I'll contemplate it in the tub.Pure said:
@}-}rebecca----
not enough discipline ...
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~ goes to sing something........thinks better of it ~
Phew close call dat .......
Phew close call dat .......
alice_underneath
with malice toward none
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If you had asked for suggestions to fill in the blank (in lieu of writing 'degrade'), I would have guessed either 'conquer' or 'overpower' as an appropriate verb to complete your assertion. But I don't think, act, or make love like a guy - so I really don't know which is more apt.Pure said:
Alice
Hester
hesterosexual
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right. at first, she acted the part of the humble, traditional female. at the end, her humility was genuine. obviously some social commentary in there about the true meanings of class, standing, dignity, honor/nobility, etc etc. there's also a huge contrast between her self confidence and self worth from beginning to end.bridgeburner said:
agreed. remember, however, that we are given a hint to her inner workings in the bookstore scene where she looks at and steals the page from the erotic art book. i think the point of that was to let us know that she had a darker side (inner whore?) that was being repressed so that her eventual compliance and acceptance of her new life and her captor shouldn't be a complete surprise to us. thinking about this scene and the dreamlike quality of the all but the first sequences, i suppose the film could also be interpreted as a psychological study of her inner workings with han-ji representing her darker side and the whole resolution being her accepting that part of herself (represented by him), and visually illustrated by the mirror glass that separates them. i sort of like this interpretation because it makes it easier for me to forgive some of the more obvious aspects of the film.
i don't know that he ever feels worthy of her. and i think, as an intense individual, he likes the build up of emotions. also, part of the whole kink there is that other men can possess her body (due to the situation, basically any man can). he wants more and he doesn't see her as a piece of meat as other men do.
i usually despise happy endings, but this one was twisted enough for me to accept it, although i think i would have enjoyed it more without one. all of the contrasts in the film were interesting. most a bit obvious and in-your-face, but still interesting. then again, given how far from the mainstream this film went it probably wasn't so bad for kim to be a bit transparent in some areas.
i found the style to be interesting in terms of the lack of meaningful dialogue (particularly in reference to the interactions between han-ji and sun-hwa). kim seems to take the old writing adage of "show don't tell" to an extreme with that choice.
Pure said:
I kinda have to go with RJMasters on this one. To quote "40-Year-Old Virgin," Pure's provocative postulate "puts the pussy on a pedestal." I would say that the male sex drive, in pure form, is about nutting and nutting hard and nutting often. Degradation puts too much emphasis on the hole and the reaction, which I think is a secondary lust.
T has a neat spin on this. He says that a woman would find his sex drive degrading but that's their POV, not his. So are we taking degradation from the male's intent or the object's reaction? From saying the male "seeks" to degrade the object, I'd guess that it must be on some level intentional, and I just don't see pure primal sex drive as possessing that sort of consciousness.
Netzach
>semiotics?
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Hester said:
Well, we could dance around the subject in a couple of ways. One is to insist that everything is up for grabs and we live in an androgynous free for all egalitarian society or we might argue that some of us get the opposite socialization somehow, or strange mixtures of messages.
I have no doubt that my family at times, wished I was a boy. I sure wasn't athletic, I sure wasn't scientific. I think I tried to fulfill their desires with the assumption of balls, which I take with me happily swinging into the arena of sex.
My sexuality is extremely blurred, runs opposite to most social programming and in many ways has more in common with male norms than female.
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Pure
Fiel a Verdad
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response to Hester; notes to quint and alice and marquis
yes, some women have the urge--we don't know why.
as well, some men 'turn around' (reverse) the drive and make themselves the objects of degradation.
i was going to say, 'so the two groups can get together and everyone's happy.' but in fact, there are, for one Netzach, 10 would-be male 'subs'
(so self labeled).
quint said,
q T has a neat spin on this. He says that a woman would find his sex drive degrading but that's their POV, not his. So are we taking degradation from the male's intent or the object's reaction?
p:Interesting question. i don't know the answer off hand. do *you find it degrading? if so, is he happy with this result? or neutral, or unhappy?
qFrom saying the male "seeks" to degrade the object, I'd guess that it must be on some level intentional, and I just don't see pure primal sex drive as possessing that sort of consciousness.
p: OTOH, i don't see the sex drive as particularly 'buried' or sequestered off to the cellar of the psyche. maybe the sadistic part of it, is, often.
PS to Alice and the Marquis (hi marquis!)
Yes, 'conquer' also fits. And in days of old--say 1970, what do the conquering soldiers do when they capture the town? Ask the women to sign "Dom and Sub contracts, with an appended list of agreed upon acts."?
yes, some women have the urge--we don't know why.
as well, some men 'turn around' (reverse) the drive and make themselves the objects of degradation.
i was going to say, 'so the two groups can get together and everyone's happy.' but in fact, there are, for one Netzach, 10 would-be male 'subs'
(so self labeled).
quint said,
q T has a neat spin on this. He says that a woman would find his sex drive degrading but that's their POV, not his. So are we taking degradation from the male's intent or the object's reaction?
p:Interesting question. i don't know the answer off hand. do *you find it degrading? if so, is he happy with this result? or neutral, or unhappy?
qFrom saying the male "seeks" to degrade the object, I'd guess that it must be on some level intentional, and I just don't see pure primal sex drive as possessing that sort of consciousness.
p: OTOH, i don't see the sex drive as particularly 'buried' or sequestered off to the cellar of the psyche. maybe the sadistic part of it, is, often.
PS to Alice and the Marquis (hi marquis!)
Yes, 'conquer' also fits. And in days of old--say 1970, what do the conquering soldiers do when they capture the town? Ask the women to sign "Dom and Sub contracts, with an appended list of agreed upon acts."?
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alice_underneath
with malice toward none
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My Darwinian female response to this discussion is to point out that degrading me is not particularly helpful (assuming that you want me to do a good job raising your offspring to adulthood).
Which could explain my reactions to the following concepts.
You want to......
Overpower me? mmmmmmm
Conquer me? yesssssss
Degrade me? Get the hell out of my bed.
Which could explain my reactions to the following concepts.
You want to......
Overpower me? mmmmmmm
Conquer me? yesssssss
Degrade me? Get the hell out of my bed.
Marquis
Jack Dawkins
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Pure said:
Good to see you Pure.
One of my favorite DeSade quotes goes something like this "In bed, every man wants to be a tyrant."
I think degrading your victim is just the icing on the cake, the push into excess that makes wallowing in your common-soul needs that much more saturatingly satisfying.
Pure
Fiel a Verdad
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Reply to alice
Alice You want to......
Overpower me? mmmmmmm
Conquer me? yesssssss
Degrade me? Get the hell out of my bed.
Well, the primal 'drive' (or impulse) can be to degrade, just as there may be a primal impulse to kill. This is is where 'civilization' steps in and puts laws and rules of etiquette into place. So you get, these days, 'egalitarian sex'--respectful 'sensitive' men and sexually forthright women.
Yet the problem is this: the male's primal level is still there. Bill Maher, in a comedy skit, ridiculed "His and Hers" or "Jack and Jill" sexual fantasy material for shared consumption.
"How," he said, "do you bring together Jill's wish to 'make love' on a bed of roses to a strong but caring guy, and Jack's desire to come on her face?"
Alice You want to......
Overpower me? mmmmmmm
Conquer me? yesssssss
Degrade me? Get the hell out of my bed.
Well, the primal 'drive' (or impulse) can be to degrade, just as there may be a primal impulse to kill. This is is where 'civilization' steps in and puts laws and rules of etiquette into place. So you get, these days, 'egalitarian sex'--respectful 'sensitive' men and sexually forthright women.
Yet the problem is this: the male's primal level is still there. Bill Maher, in a comedy skit, ridiculed "His and Hers" or "Jack and Jill" sexual fantasy material for shared consumption.
"How," he said, "do you bring together Jill's wish to 'make love' on a bed of roses to a strong but caring guy, and Jack's desire to come on her face?"
alice_underneath
with malice toward none
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Consider the possibilities if Quint is correct, and the primal urge is simply "about nutting and nutting hard and nutting often."Pure said:
If the conquering marauders of prior centuries have been replaced by Donald Trump, famous athletes, rock stars, etc. - who 'conquer' with their fame & checkbooks - will the urge to degrade be maintained in the gene pool, or will it be replaced with something else?
As long as he leaves room for the particular action to be interpreted by Jill as something other than degradation, I don't see a problem here.Pure said:
The problem comes if Jack wants her to actually be humiliated. Is it the action itself or the reaction from her that Jack is going for here?
alice_underneath
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Pure -Pure said:
An excellent response to this question was written by SelenaKittyn, on your old thread:
https://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=15867425&postcount=149
Pure said:
I could find it worshipful. Focusing on me and my reactions like that is kind of flattering!
I guess I'm just taking issue with the "pure form" conjecture. I think that back-to-basic sex just cares about winning, rather than making somebody lose. But that's my XX perspective clogging things up; I could be totally off base.
alice_underneath
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Pure said:
RJMasters said:
Marquis said:
Pure, RJMasters, & Marquis -
Since Pure has tied this urge to the behavior of conquering marauders, I would define 'degrading the object' as: reducing the status and value of the object, and impairing her ability to function successfully in society.
Is that the way you are using the term too?
Whatever your definition, does the female's reaction make a difference in your level of satisfaction? If she craves/enjoys/feels 'worshipped' by whatever it is that you are doing, has she still been 'degraded' (as you would define the word)?
Pure
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i'm not quite clear on this, quint; a defintion
quint said,
q originally T has a neat spin on this. He says that a woman would find his sex drive degrading but that's their POV, not his. So are we taking degradation from the male's intent or the object's reaction?
p:Interesting question. i don't know the answer off hand. do *you find it degrading? if so, is he happy with this result? or neutral, or unhappy?
Quint most recently: I could find it worshipful. Focusing on me and my reactions like that is kind of flattering!
P [my response to Q's most recent]: I'm not sure if you mean you feel worshipful of him, or if you mean you infer he's worshipful of you, or something else.
I see --I think-- that Alice reads you as 'feeling worshipped' in whatever degrading thing occurs.
My take is that you/the woman may well feel prized in some way and also, perhaps, fulfilled in what she needs. But what might be called 'revering' ["worshipping"] goes in the other direction, you to him.
===
incidentally, for the pure-ists, i'm happy with these m-w-unabridged defs:
Main Entry: de·base
Etymology: de- + base (low, vile); after abase
2 : to bring to low esteem or disrepute : expose to shame, humiliation, or contempt
3 : to bring low or drag down in moral or intellectual character : reduce to dishonor, ignominy, depravity, or moral degeneracy : DEBASE, CORRUPT
====
Main Entry: hu·mil·i·ate
Etymology: Late Latin humiliatus, past participle of humiliare, from Latin humilis low, humble -- more at HUMBLE
: to reduce to a lower position in one's own eyes or the eyes of others : injure the self-respect of : HUMBLE, MORTIFY
quint said,
q originally T has a neat spin on this. He says that a woman would find his sex drive degrading but that's their POV, not his. So are we taking degradation from the male's intent or the object's reaction?
p:Interesting question. i don't know the answer off hand. do *you find it degrading? if so, is he happy with this result? or neutral, or unhappy?
Quint most recently: I could find it worshipful. Focusing on me and my reactions like that is kind of flattering!
P [my response to Q's most recent]: I'm not sure if you mean you feel worshipful of him, or if you mean you infer he's worshipful of you, or something else.
I see --I think-- that Alice reads you as 'feeling worshipped' in whatever degrading thing occurs.
My take is that you/the woman may well feel prized in some way and also, perhaps, fulfilled in what she needs. But what might be called 'revering' ["worshipping"] goes in the other direction, you to him.
===
incidentally, for the pure-ists, i'm happy with these m-w-unabridged defs:
Main Entry: de·base
Etymology: de- + base (low, vile); after abase
2 : to bring to low esteem or disrepute : expose to shame, humiliation, or contempt
3 : to bring low or drag down in moral or intellectual character : reduce to dishonor, ignominy, depravity, or moral degeneracy : DEBASE, CORRUPT
====
Main Entry: hu·mil·i·ate
Etymology: Late Latin humiliatus, past participle of humiliare, from Latin humilis low, humble -- more at HUMBLE
: to reduce to a lower position in one's own eyes or the eyes of others : injure the self-respect of : HUMBLE, MORTIFY
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RJMasters
workaholic
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alice_underneath said:
Sex drive in its pure form is about selfish pleasure. The question which seems to be forming is: Are things like humilation and conquest part of the "root" of the sex drive or are they add-ons. I would submit that it varies from person to person. In a general sense, which is how the original question is posed, I would say Quint got it 100% right. For most men its about nuttin hard and often. However, I believe that some are wired in such a way where conquest and humilation must be involved for them to nut hard and often. Meaning simply without those aspects thrown in, then there is no nuttin hard or often.
I do not require humilation or conquest in order to find satisfaction. Infact I see humilation and conquest from a different perspective completely than what is being discussed here. Mostly because sex drive has been qualified down to its pure level. Are humilation and conquest a part of what I consider my sexuality? Yes absolutely. Are they a part of my sex drive in its pure form? Nope.
If in the unfolding of events where I will not take no from my wife as an answer because she is not in the mood, and conquest enters the picture by way of insistence, then it does. If I have my wife bent over the sofa and I am fucking her and the phone rings and its my mom on the other end and my wife has to talk to her and explain I can't..ummfpph....come to the phone...ummphfff...right now as he is....ummmpffff.....busy...I am sure that might be a bit humilating to her especially when my mom hears whats going on and says she will let her go and call back after a while when I am not so busy. The point is, I didn't know my wife was not in the mood, nor did I know my mom was going to call...my only concern was that I wanted to fuck my wife and nothing was going to stop or prevent me from enjoying myself.
So I can't answer the question you posed within the context it has been framed as it just doesn't fit my way of thinking. So I will leave my difinitions and uses of humilation and conquest for another discussion.
As far as degrading goes, its been my experience over the span of my life that the one who is degraded the most is myself in some of the things I have tried in order to satisfy my own sex drive. The very few times I have actually degraded someone from a sexual experience has never left me with any kind of satisfaction.
I do not think I am prepared fully to explain the difference I see between humilation and degradation, but I know it centers around my intent, and having a good idea what kind of reaction it will create in the one who is the focus of the attention. And yes, consent before, during and after come into play as well.
alice_underneath
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Quint said:I could find it worshipful. Focusing on me and my reactions like that is kind of flattering!
I read Quint's statement as a celebration of the fact that his attention and focus is on her (not someone else).Pure said:
I agree - that's flattering, and I interpreted her "worshipful" comment as saying that his behavior makes her feel treasured, prized or cherished.
Quint, please excuse and correct me if I misunderstood what you were saying.
