To Shereads and others cynical about the march of democracy

[Pure]

Kuwait today 'gave' women the vote.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Kuwait today 'gave' women the vote.

Yeah - saw that and from the news reports it isn't just superficial.

Who was the last country to give women the suffrage, Switzerland?

 

[BlackShanglan]

Thanks, Pure. That reminder really made my day. However it happened, it's a great thing - the sudden emancipation of millions.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Thanks, Pure. That reminder really made my day. However it happened, it's a great thing - the sudden emancipation of millions.

Be careful here, don't impose our western views too readily.

Suffrage, the vote, has always depended on control and property.

The great progress in Kuwait has to be tempered against the fact that women will be told how to vote by their husbands.

Are you really convinced this is progress?

 

[amicus]

Amicus chuckles and blushes, 'The devil made me do it."


"...To Shereads and others cynical about the march of democracy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kuwait today 'gave' women the vote...."


** and thas a good thing, right?

It is not that the author of 'The Feminist Mistake" does not appreciate the advance of individual freedom and democracy to all humanity...

It is that I question whether females have evolved to the 'fully human state' just yet and are responsible enough to carry the burden or rational government.

The word 'flibbertigibbet' did not occur by accident, methinks...


the incorrigible amicus...

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Amicus chuckles and blushes, 'The devil made me do it."


"...To Shereads and others cynical about the march of democracy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kuwait today 'gave' women the vote...."


** and thas a good thing, right?

It is not that the author of 'The Feminist Mistake" does not appreciate the advance of individual freedom and democracy to all humanity...

It is that I question whether females have evolved to the 'fully human state' just yet and are responsible enough to carry the burden or rational government.

The word 'flibbertigibbet' did not occur by accident, methinks...


the incorrigible amicus...

On yourbike.

 

[amicus]

"on yourbike?"


ahem?

 

[shereads]

Kuwait today 'gave' women the vote.

That's nice. Which women?

If Diebold is involved, it's possible that the system is programmed to count every third vote by a woman as a vote for Pat Buchanan. Fortunately, the Bush administration has left me numb to issues not directly related to Terror.

 

[shereads]

There's democracy that marches and democracy that slithers. The slithering kind uses symbolic gestures to make foregone conclusions palatable.

On November 2, I experienced the new and uncomfortable sensation of pressing a button marked "Vote" and waiting to see if something happened to confirm that I had, in fact, voted. The screen went blank and a poll worker reset it for the next would-be voter. My state's exit polls predicted one winner and its paperless voting machines produced another - the brother of our governor, who was a staunch proponent and defender of the new paperless balloting machines provided by Diebold, Inc., whose chairman wrote fundraising letters promising to do "everything in my power" to keep GWB in the White House.

Democracy slithered on, leaving no trail. Not even a slime trail.

Edited to add: Has everyone congratulated Mr. Chalabi, trusted informant, suspected double-agent and Iraq's new Oil Minister? (Take that, terrorists!) Iraq's new democracy must be more inclusive than Florida's, which prohibits convicted criminals from voting and allows an unofficial "margin of error" on the felon lists sent to precincts.

 

[Pure]

not mentioned much these days

south vietnam had votes, women and men, and elections during the 'war' period beginning late 40s and ending in its fall in mid 1970s.

ireland and northern ireland have had universal suffrage and sufferage for some time, though i understand in the latter case, 'cath'licks' has some disadvandtages that sher will know about, and they didn't get represented too well till after Bernadette.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Be careful here, don't impose our western views too readily.

Suffrage, the vote, has always depended on control and property.

The great progress in Kuwait has to be tempered against the fact that women will be told how to vote by their husbands.

Are you really convinced this is progress?

Yes. Undoubtedly and thoroughly convinced that it is progress.

One might have made very much the same objections to the beginnings of women's suffrage in the United States. One might very well have been correct. There is still, however, an enormous difference between struggling to be allowed to freely exercise your legal rights and struggling to have them at all. It is, to take a metaphor that no doubt has holes in it but also some use, the difference between abolishing slavery and instituting the civil rights acts. It's not an end, but it's a long-awaited and extremely significant beginning.

Shanglan

 

[3 Legged Donkey]

Amicus chuckles and blushes, 'The devil made me do it."


"...To Shereads and others cynical about the march of democracy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kuwait today 'gave' women the vote...."


** and thas a good thing, right?

It is not that the author of 'The Feminist Mistake" does not appreciate the advance of individual freedom and democracy to all humanity...

It is that I question whether females have evolved to the 'fully human state' just yet and are responsible enough to carry the burden or rational government.

The word 'flibbertigibbet' did not occur by accident, methinks...


the incorrigible amicus...

Wanker.

 

[Guest]

There's democracy that marches and democracy that slithers. The slithering kind uses symbolic gestures to make foregone conclusions palatable.

On November 2, I experienced the new and uncomfortable sensation of pressing a button marked "Vote" and waiting to see if something happened to confirm that I had, in fact, voted. The screen went blank and a poll worker reset it for the next would-be voter. My state's exit polls predicted one winner and its paperless voting machines produced another - the brother of our governor, who was a staunch proponent and defender of the new paperless balloting machines provided by Diebold, Inc., whose chairman wrote fundraising letters promising to do "everything in my power" to keep GWB in the White House.

Democracy slithered on, leaving no trail. Not even a slime trail.

Edited to add: Has everyone congratulated Mr. Chalabi, trusted informant, suspected double-agent and Iraq's new Oil Minister? (Take that, terrorists!) Iraq's new democracy must be more inclusive than Florida's, which prohibits convicted criminals from voting and allows an unofficial "margin of error" on the felon lists sent to precincts.

should we invest in Morton's salt?

 

[Guest]

should we invest in Morton's salt?

I'm investing in earplugs.

 

[Baron]

What exactly are they voting for, how many headscarves they have to wear? It's a plutocratic Emirate, not exactly a paragon of democracy.

 

[Guest]

Wanker.

Will you marry me?

 

[amicus]

3 Legged Donkey ....'wanker..."

Is that Brit slang for Liberal? Or that group unisex who bugger each other as they don't appeal to opposites?

Funny language, that....

 

[amicus]

Oh, yes, and would some one close to Shereads please remind her the last election is history and that she needs to gear up for Cheney/Swartzenager 08, thanks....

and if it is Hilary for the Left, it will be a 58-40 sweep with the other two percent going to Amicus...

 

[cantdog]

Be careful here, don't impose our western views too readily.

Suffrage, the vote, has always depended on control and property.

The great progress in Kuwait has to be tempered against the fact that women will be told how to vote by their husbands.

Are you really convinced this is progress?

Progress is in the eye of the beholder, always. In Afghanistan, whole clans and tribes voted en bloc. This was locally perceived as a great thing, a natural thing. The important unit is the tribe, not the individual; all stand or fall together. It is not the way a westerner would have used the franchise, but it is still legitimate within the context.

 

[rgraham666]

Wanker.

Isn't that overrating him?

A wank, at least, is interesting and fun.

 

[Jagged]

Aren't liberals ever happy? If this had happened under a Democrat Administration it would be hailed as a great step for women around the world. It is progress just that.....with Civil Rights or anything else you must start somewhere. Power starts in a voting booth in a democracy. It is a step.....and the first one is important isn't it?

 

[cloudy]

Progress is in the eye of the beholder, always. In Afghanistan, whole clans and tribes voted en bloc. This was locally perceived as a great thing, a natural thing. The important unit is the tribe, not the individual; all stand or fall together. It is not the way a westerner would have used the franchise, but it is still legitimate within the context.

I think I love you.

 

[shereads]

should we invest in Morton's salt?

We shouldn't worry our little heads with money and other math-related topics. We should crochet pot holders for the poor and let our menfolk do the hard jobs, like deciding which countries to invade and then thinking up some reasons. Look at Laura Bush. Her husband bankrupted several companies before he went into politics, but she was wise enough not to question her man's business sense. And she was right. He made millions from those bankruptcies. A wife who asked too many questions would already have been traded in on a new one.



How much does salt cost? I have a staff of undocumented aliens who do my shopping.

 

[shereads]

Aren't liberals ever happy? If this had happened under a Democrat Administration it would be hailed as a great step for women around the world. It is progress just that.....with Civil Rights or anything else you must start somewhere. Power starts in a voting booth in a democracy. It is a step.....and the first one is important isn't it?

If liberals had listened to conservatives, there would have been no Civil Rights movement. Your side didn't exactly welcome Negroes into the mainstream. That's one of the reasons I became a liberal. I saw your arguments getting thinner and thinner, until they were pretty much limited to whining about the plight of white anglo saxon males and the lack of honor accorded to the confederate flag. Even now, when you feel compelled to put black people in positions of power, you find white black people. The ultimate irony is Condoleeza Rice, a woman who has power yet is subservant to the extent that my friend's Cuban mamma, whose political concerns usually begin and end with Castro, saw Condi speak one night and said, "That woman acts like she would like to kiss President Bush's balls." At least, that's how her daughter translated it for me.

Not only is Condi Rice every sexually threatened white man's idea of the perfect woman to hold a position of power - one who parrots the boss and does it well - she couldn't be any whiter if she came to work dressed as the Grand Dragon. How do you guys do it? Where do you find these robots? Does Halliburton make them?

Speaking of Halliburton, while we celebrate the advent of women's suffrage in Kuwait, it is worth remembering that we have plunged countless Iraqi women back into the middle ages, destroying a secular government that, for the millions lucky enough to escape the notice of its dictator, was the safest refuge for women in the Arab world from the paternalism of Islamic rule. Women in Iraq may hold positions in government while the world is watching, but in the places outside the range of our cameras, there is no longer anyone who cares to protect the right of girls to attend school alongside their brothers, or of women to work in professions of their choosing, and dress as they please. An increase in rape and forced marriage was one of the first signs that things were changing in Iraq, and not all for the better.

There. I needed that. God, I hate the way the world has become since you people took absolute control. It's easy to embrace universal suffrage when you have all of the power, including the power to steal elections in a way that makes a recount impossible. Why should Kuwait be any better than Florida and Ohio?

Goodbye, political thread. I need sleep. And I got yer vote, right here.

Edited to add: Today I learned that my supermarket has replaced Haagen Das Chocolate Peanut Butter with some weird new flavor. So please, Jagged, don't take this rant personally. I'm questioning whether life is anything but an illusion. Don't turn your back on the Frozen Foods manager.

 

[minsue]

Aren't liberals ever happy? If this had happened under a Democrat Administration it would be hailed as a great step for women around the world. It is progress just that.....with Civil Rights or anything else you must start somewhere. Power starts in a voting booth in a democracy. It is a step.....and the first one is important isn't it?

Answer to question #1 - Nope. We will forever be trying to make changes. Conservatives will be forever trying to keep things the same. Isn't that pretty much the point?

Answer to question #2 - Yes, it is an extraordinarily important step. Will it be perfect? Of course not. There is still much work to be done. That said, as a raving liberal, I think that it is unbelievably demeaning to Kuwaiti women and women everywhere to say it doesn't matter because they'll just vote how their husbands tell them to.