To find an editor, you must first be one!

[Whispersecret]

Through no fault of the management, the Volunteer Editor program isn't working. One of the reasons must be because people tire of it and don't bother to notify Laurel that they're quitting. Another reason is because it's largely a thankless job.

Sure, you feel some satisfaction knowing you've truly helped someone else. You probably get a thank you from the writer, too. But really, when you consider the hours it can take to proofread an entire story, and give thoughtful comments about how to improve it, a thank you--even a gushing one--isn't that much of a reward. It doesn't take long to burn out, especially when you're sacrificing your own writing time working on someone else's story.

So, I respectfully suggest that we dismantle the Volunteer Editor Program. The idea was sound, but ultimately unworkable.

What is more realistic is for writers to find friends here and to exchange editing services. That has worked for me for three years now. Here's why:

--You work with people you respect and whose comments you know in advance will help you. The V.E.'s were like Forrest Gump's box of chocolates. Plus, if you have established a friendship with these people, you can probably count on them following through.

--You give and you get. It's an even exchange. (Unless one of you writes novels and the other flash fiction.)

--You learn. Surprisingly enough, you learn a great deal when you analyze someone else's work. Somehow, errors and style problems you don't see in your own stories stand out like sore thumbs in someone else's. It prompts you to look for similar problems in your own work.

--This give and take among us here can only make the writing community stronger. The better the writing, the more people who will return to read our stuff.

People need to remember that it's really a lot of work to edit a story. Heck, people are constantly saying, "Yeah, I hate to edit my own stuff. Heh heh." No kidding. It's hard work. And it's silly to expect a virtual stranger to do all that hard work for a wink and a smile.

So, all you editor seekers out there, offer your own services to someone else. Go that extra mile so that you can post your story with pride.

The alternative is having your story exposed to the public full of mistakes and lacking polish, which only makes you look lazy and stupid. Sorry, but that's the truth. People may not be sending feedback saying that, but you can bet they're thinking it when they're voting or back-clicking.

 

[kristydoll]

Hi

Very good post! I have to agree with everything written there. Working with an editor helps both writers in the end. Am sorry to hear though that the program is no longer.

Stating that, I would like to make the offer to help edit/critique stories and flash that fall under the bdsm genre. (I said bdsm because that is what I prefer to read and write).

kristy

 

[Whispersecret]

You misunderstand. The Volunteer Editor program is still up and running, as far as I know. I was SUGGESTING that it be cut, since it doesn't seem to be working.

It seems cruel to offer this service to newcomers and have them go through unnecessary frustration.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I think that, rather than using the program as it stands, instead we turn the editor's forum into sort of like an author's/editor's personals. People can advertise their editing skills and request editorial assistance. This is easy enough for them to return and post that they don't want to be an editor any more rather than have their email potentially lost amongs the billions of pieces Laurel gets everyday.

I quit editing because I have no more time and I take too long for most people.

My experience was mostly good, but I picked up a few authors that thought that I owed them something simply because I volunteered to be an editor.

It was just too much to deal with.

 

[ronde]

I've thought of joining the volunteer editors program for all the reasons that WS states, but I don't have any idea of how much editing demand there would be. To those of you who have participated as an editor, how many requests does one get? I realize the number depends on the genre and also on the style of the author, but can you give me some indication?

 

[wildsweetone]

i opened a thread in the story feedback forum a little while back, offering my feedback on stories. i enjoyed reading the work of other authors.

i suddenly found myself in work and ran out of time to do the feedback.

however, with the little amount i did, i have managed to have a couple of authors send me stories which i tend to do a certain amount of suggestive editing on. i find that while i'm working, this amount of author help is about as much as i can cope with. hopefully during the school holidays i'll open the feedback thread again.

is what you're suggesting able to be run through the 'story feedback' forum Whispersecret, or were you thinking of starting it up elsewhere?

 

[Weird Harold]

I've thought of joining the volunteer editors program for all the reasons that WS states, but I don't have any idea of how much editing demand there would be. To those of you who have participated as an editor, how many requests does one get? I realize the number depends on the genre and also on the style of the author, but can you give me some indication?

When I was editing, I usually had two or three stories queued up waiting for me to finish the current editing job. I could easily have spent two-or three hours EVERY day editing.

One of the reasons I quit editing, was that I got burned out telling each and every author the same things -- don't use passive voice; don't trust your spellchecker so much; don't string complex sentences together so often; etc, ad nauseum. Editing just got boring for me -- really more frustrating than boring.

 

[Whispersecret]

KM said, "I think that, rather than using the program as it stands, instead we turn the editor's forum into sort of like an author's/editor's personals. People can advertise their editing skills and request editorial assistance. This is easy enough for them to return and post that they don't want to be an editor any more rather than have their email potentially lost amongs the billions of pieces Laurel gets everyday."

Exactly. I don't think anything needs to be set up. Maybe Laurel should just get rid of the V.E. program and in its place suggest that authors go to the Editor's Forum and/or Author's Hangout and try to get editing help there. I believe the best place for this suggestion is wherever she has the info about the submission process.

WH, I hear ya. Same advice, ad nauseum is right! That's one of the reasons I'm doing that First 500 Words thread. Hopefully, since it's a public one-on-one thing, I won't have to repeat myself.

I also had a problem with getting stories that were so horrid that I just didn't know where to start.

Ronde, I'm not sure that if you joined up that you'd get any requests. The list is so huge and there are so few people responding to editing requests... If I were you, I'd just offer my services on the writing forums or look for the people who request it.

 

[Pure]

WS is right that alternatives to VE are needed, and certainly exchanges can help.

This works if both know something about editing, grammar, etc.

BUT
If one knows little, who will exchange with her/him?

If both know little, there may be exchange, but probably little benefit.

===

When all is said and done, some are going to depend on favors from strangers (which can happen) and this can be gratifying to the editor if s/he is suitably thanked, coddled, and buttered up.
Oh, and acknowledged.

J.

 

[Weird Harold]

BUT
If one knows little, who will exchange with her/him?

If both know little, there may be exchange, but probably little benefit.

Good point. I'd have serious doubts about letting some of my clients edit my stories -- not that I fear retribution, mind you, but I don't think some of them could benefit my story very much.

Some of my clients are good editors and I'll beg and plead with them to edit stories if necesary.

 

[Whispersecret]

WS is right that alternatives to VE are needed, and certainly exchanges can help.

This works if both know something about editing, grammar, etc.

BUT
If one knows little, who will exchange with her/him?

If both know little, there may be exchange, but probably little benefit.

J.

Good point. Certainly one of the partners can be more skilled than the other. There's really no way of knowing that except perhaps by previewing their stories.

Still, there are other things to be gained from editing than mere proofreading. I need people to be on the lookout for corniness, overwriting, repetition, contrivances, etc. in my own stuff, and you don't need to be a grammarian for that.

 

[Ulyssa]

People need to remember that it's really a lot of work to edit a story. Heck, people are constantly saying, "Yeah, I hate to edit my own stuff. Heh heh." No kidding. It's hard work. And it's silly to expect a virtual stranger to do all that hard work for a wink and a smile.

So, all you editor seekers out there, offer your own services to someone else. Go that extra mile so that you can post your story with pride.

The strangest thing is that rewriting is much easier than writing in the first place. I too have edited works for other authors on an exchange program--once for corrections in a foreign language. Like WS said so eloquently, you have to critique and edit to improve your own writing.

Although genuine bribes will be considered.

 

[the_bragis]

Yes...

It's a good idea, but what about people like me? I am simply not experienced or confident enough to offer myself as an editor.

I agree, giving feedback to other authors is a great help to the author critiquing... the critter? ~little giggle~. Reading other feedback is really useful too. I often read another critiques or start typing one, and then think 'u-oh... that's what I do!' or else, 'that's what I should do!'

Unfortunately I had no luck at all with the VE programme. I would suggest people looking for an author that they do what I did. Look for an author whose work you really like and admire, then ask. I got a few knock backs, but even that wasn't a waste of time. I still received some really useful and good advice in return. (Thanks again Weird Harold.) Now I am fortunate to have two very experience and talented authors helping me. Two? Well yes, I write in different categories. It's foolish and unfair to expect someone to read and edit something that is not of interest to them.

Finally, can I really say this enough? Thank you Lady Phoenix and sub joe.

Have a great day,

Alex(fem)

 

[Whispersecret]

It's a good idea, but what about people like me? I am simply not experienced or confident enough to offer myself as an editor.

I agree, giving feedback to other authors is a great help to the author critiquing... the critter? ~little giggle~. Reading other feedback is really useful too. I often read another critiques or start typing one, and then think 'u-oh... that's what I do!' or else, 'that's what I should do!'

You don't need to be that skilled. Really. I think all you need is to have an opinion and not be afraid to voice it.

Sometimes I think people are afraid to point out the little picky shit when they edit my stuff, and that's what I need and want. (Not that I don't also need those broad sweeping observations, like this whole plot is contrived!) Usually, when someone pinpoints an awkward phrase or something else just as small, I usually find that I wasn't sure about that either. It's just enough to get me to get off my butt and fix it.

Frankly, I think most people would just be happy to have another pair of eyes looking at their work, no matter how inexperienced. Plus, you'll probably be surprised at what you find when you've made that committment to someone.

 

[Guest]

A problem most writers seem to have, even experienced ones, is knowing how well the comminication is working. Conjoring up a story in your mind, you write it down. Someone reads your story. How is the story that they conjor in their minds related to your original story, the one in your mind? It's hard to strike a balance between being too elliptical and using lazy cliches.


So as an editor you have decide up front what the author MEANT. Only then can you edit (unless it's stuff like grammatical errors). What Whisper manages to do is to both understand the MEANING, and also suggest ways of increasing the intesity of the meaning, by getting rid of passive voice, unnecessay adverbs, etc. So a good editor will have respect for the meaning, but help give it more force.

Unless an editor knows what I'm TRYING to say, I won't trust them to make suggestions.

A very useful thing that editors can do is get rid of whole passages that the author is being a little bit precious about, but don't add anything to the story.

My questions to editors are more along the lines of

1. Did you want to read on after the first couple of paragraphs?
2. Did you care about the people?
3. Did you feel let down by the ending?
4. Did I make any typos, grammar mistakes?

And if they're good editors, they can not only answer these questions, but suggest ways of fixing the story up so I get 1 Yes 2 Yes 3 No 4 No by the time it's submitted.

 

[Weird Harold]

Unless an editor knows what I'm TRYING to say, I won't trust them to make suggestions.

You have very high standards for an editor. I don't think it's really necessary for an editor to understand what you're trying to say for them to tell you, "this part doesn't make any sense," or, "this part is confusing and hard to read."

An editor that meets your requirement is nice, but I think I prefer to get the opinion of a "regular reader" with regards to readability and whether I got the message across.

 

[Guest]

I admit I might demand high standards in an editor, but you must agree that editing and giving feedback are different. In editing you separate your opinions of the underlying story from the manner in which it is told, and only address the more or less technical aspects.


If someone says to me "this is hard to understand", I'd regard that as a help. But if an editor attempts to rephrase something they consider hard to understand, I wouldn't regard that as a help. This happens sometimes. What I'm saying is that you have to have respect for the gist and feel of the story. I would expect the author themselves to rephrase something that was hard to understand.

I've been tempted to correct all sorts of things in a story, but decided that I was trying to re-write, rather than edit. Editing is completely different than feedback. It's trying to make the story better without altering ithe spirit of it. But you're right, feedback of the sort you're describing can be very useful, and is part of what you need to do if you edit.

I always try to provide a synopsis to an editor, or a description of the story, which is useful for me and them, they can look at it and use it to fix the story to make it work better.

The trouble is, supposing I like long descriptions and lots of detail -- Like Tolkein. I would think that an editor saying "your descriptions are too long" didn't really appreciate what I was trying to write.

Some stories I read here are just long descriptions of a sexual encounter or experience. Well, that's fine. The questions should be, how good is the description? Are there redundant or misleading phrases? Does it jump about to much, or move smoothly? The worst thing to do is say, as I've seen done -- "This sort of thing won't do -- cut out descriptions, they're a waste of space." -- That's opinion.

Even when it comes to using cliches and "over-used" idioms, I'd be very cautious as an editor. The author could argue that they wanted to use exactly those words, and doesn't care how cliched I think it is.

 

[Weird Harold]

I admit I might demand high standards in an editor, but you must agree that editing and giving feedback are different. In editing you separate your opinions of the underlying story from the manner in which it is told, and only address the more or less technical aspects.

That depends on the "level" or "class" of edit requested -- Story Edit, Copy Edit, or Proofreading.

At the Story Edit level, anything and everything -- up to and including the basic plot or "gist" of the story -- is fair game. Story editing is almost as involved as co-writing the story.

A Copy Edit is primarlily concerned with punctuation, grammar and readability.

Proofreading is a search for typos, spelling and punctuation errors.

But if an editor attempts to rephrase something they consider hard to understand, I wouldn't regard that as a help. ... I would expect the author themselves to rephrase something that was hard to understand.

I've been tempted to correct all sorts of things in a story, but decided that I was trying to re-write, rather than edit. Editing is completely different than feedback. ...

...The author could argue that they wanted to use exactly those words, and doesn't care how cliched I think it is.

These points are why I will NOT edit anything that isn't in MS Word format where I can use the reviewing tools of MS Word 97 or later. I strongly believe that the final say on any change to a story should be the author's and Word's track changes function and reviewing tools allow the author to see exactly what changes I made and accept or reject them as they wish. The hidden comment function allows me to comment on WHY I suggested the change I made and suggest alternatives tht might suit the author better than the choice I made.

Using the reviewing tools and tracking the changes for the author makes the end result look like MS had a bulk sale on red and green electrons, but it leaves control over the changes in the author's hands -- where it rightfully belongs.

 

[Guest]

Using the reviewing tools and tracking the changes for the author makes the end result look like MS had a bulk sale on red and green electrons, but it leaves control over the changes in the author's hands -- where it rightfully belongs.

I use that too, you're right, It allows you do all kinds of things to story, but still leave the final say in the hands of the author.

Have you used the Tools|Make Erotic menu function in MS Word 2004 yet?

 

[Weird Harold]

Have you used the Tools|Make Erotic menu function in MS Word 2004 yet?

Nope, I don't upgrade software unless there's something new that I really need or the ersionI'm using won't work when I'm forced to upgrade the operating system.

Given MS Word's record on recognising grammar problems, I wouldn't trust it to actually make something erotic anyway -- It might manage "crude and disgusting" on it's own, but never "erotic."

(FYI: Never name a character "Frank" -- it drives grammar checkers nuts because "frank" is an adjective or a verb as far as grammar checkers are concerned.)

 

[bethclaire]

I would hate to see the Volunteer Editing program disabled. Yes, I did have to write to about 10 editors to find two that were willing to look at my work and offer constructive suggestions, BUT, I also spend a lot of time and effort editing my stories.

I use Word's grammar and spelling tools and also common sense. I print my stories and read them aloud, which catches a lot of errors.

Both of my editors don't have to correct grammar, but rather point out places that either don't make sense or are incorrect with the rest of the story (how can she get undressed if she is in handcuffs, that sort of thing).

I think that the program is a good one. I also am quite certain that if they have to run the story through Word to edit out the bad grammar, the author shouldn't expect them to be happy about it.

 

[Graymouse]

Hmm. You know, for a lot of the same reasons previously mentioned, I hesitate to offer my editing services (for whatever they might be worth) in exchange for a critique of my own writing. Mostly this is based on my fear of being faced with reading something so awful I'd rather kill myself. I kind of like the idea--I don't remember who mentioned it--of previewing someone's story before committing to do an edit. Sort of like trying on clothes before you buy them. My other concern is that, like most of us, I'm an incredibly busy person. I don't think I can commit myself to anything more than a "one story for one story" exchange at a time since I never know what the next week is going to look like for me. The last thing I want to do is blow people off who are expecting something.

Anyway, there are certain people around here whose writing I am familiar with and would be quite willing to edit without previewing--not to kiss ass, but most of the people who've posted on this thread--but generally these are the people who, being competent, have been so overburdened with requests that they don't do editing anymore. Sigh.

So this leaves me with the previewing aspect again. Does anyone feel it's possible to offer a proposition like this on an individual basis (meaning I'm going to have to put it out there in a random thread since no such request format currently exists here) without guaranteeing that I will offend/ make enemies of some people if I should opt not to edit their work? What I'm saying is--do you think this is likely to attract only people with a basic grasp of grammar and story structure (being that they would be volunteering as editors as well and not just authors) or does it seem inevitable that such a request would yield writers of the "Cee Spot runn" variety? I just know I don't have the stomach to edit things of that caliber, yet I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

 

[Whispersecret]

Graymouse, you might be surprised who would be willing to exchange editing favors. Check the Story Discussion Board. You can usually see samples of people's work there and also be assured that these are people who have a real interest in improving.

You can never be sure what caliber of writer you're going to get. Look on my 500 Word Critique thread. Some of the people clearly have a better grasp of the English language than others. When I was an official volunteer editor, I would, as you mentioned, sometimes get stories that made me think of suicide. Then and now I would "choose my battles." I would identify some key issues, like noun verb agreement or whatever, and point out those mistakes.

If a story is badly written, it is simply impossible to "fix" everything. Nor is it desirable. Hit them with too much and they'll just freak out. Besides, there's no way they could absorb that much information anyway.

The choice is yours. If I were you I'd try those authors whose work you liked first. It can't hurt to ask. The worst that can happen is that they say no.

 

[SlickTony]

I have been thinking about joining the volunteer editor program on a copy edit and proofreading level. It never ceases to amaze me, the way stories find their way into publication seemingly innocent of any copy-editing or proofreading whatsoever. And I hate to see bad syntax, run-on sentences, etc. and the kind of thing where you know they might have used Spellcheck but then depended on it too heavily. I don't know how much work I'd have to do, but it can't be that different from what I do at work and the material has got to be more fun to work with.

 

[ronde]

Greymouse, instead of starting another thread, why not find a couple of authors who's work you like, and PM or email them. It is unlikely that you will offend, and as Whispersecret says, you might be surprised. I think this might be more productive than the shotgun approach of another thread.