Through Him I Have Discovered Freedom

[A Desert Rose]

*quietly pounces on ADR's cute ass for saying the Lord-whatever-it-was thing she commented on*

Better?

Pounce my ass... I promise you won't be sorry. ;-)

 

[RJMasters]

Pounce my ass... I promise you won't be sorry. ;-)

Two things I wanna know...

1. Is this an open invitation?

and two

2. Is there a line?

 

[JMohegan]

I read it and here are my honest thoughts about it and about that which followed.

I think this was written in that "honeymoonish" type of euphoria. For the person who wrote it, I can see that is has a lot of personal meaning. I know many women who struggle with what society pushes on to them via the more "radical/militant" feministic views. I can see the resentment being expressed from a person who finally made a realization for herself, that she had bought into what many believe are the lies of feminism. It is clear that now she feels the only way to set right what has been wrong in her own life, is to now advocating the 180 position and trying to help other women who she thinks are no doubt confused and trapped as she once was.

My recommendation is as follows. Enjoy your own happiness, but do not make the mistake that "one size fits all". The feminist movement is about opportunity. For many women, taking hold of that opportunity with both hands and living their lives independantly is the key to their happiness and freedom. For others, its the freedom to let that opportunity pass in favor of something more satisfying to them. I do not like militant feminist chastising other women who make such a decision, but I equaly do not approve of someone who judges wrongly women who have the courage to grab life by the balls and live it on their own terms. In my opinion it takes courage either way to choose what makes one own self happy and appropriate respect should be given either way.

As to what followed...what a mess.

This is an excellent post, RJ.

I agree with everything you have written here, including the euphemistic reference to the "mess".

 

[chris9]

Apparently unlike most here, I marvel at people who register and IMMEDIATELY begin posting. It certainly brings their sincerity and genuineness (and yes, that is a word. I looked it up) into question, not to mention their possible alt-ness. (That's a new word and I take total claim to it. So, back off... it's mine.) Although, I'm fairly sure she's not an alt.

From past experineces, most of us who post here, lurked for a time before
plunging in and posting and certainly not plunging in like this belly flop of hers seems to be.

I didn't lurk. I'm not good at reading stuff that interests me, moves me and keeping my mouth shut (or rather my fingers immobile). I have the theory that it doesn't really matter how you first introduce yourself. I remember now-regular posters getting off with a bad start (I'm thinking Wench here, could be wrong, though), but are now accepted. Usually the first at least fifty, rather hundred posts get pretty much ignored, or so it seems, because they are not specifically answered. After that interaction starts. And how you made those first posts will eventually be totally forgotten.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Two things I wanna know...

1. Is this an open invitation?

and two

2. Is there a line?

It's only open to a select few.

and

No, there's no line. Seriously, who'd want it?

 

[A Desert Rose]

I didn't lurk. I'm not good at reading stuff that interests me, moves me and keeping my mouth shut (or rather my fingers immobile). I have the theory that it doesn't really matter how you first introduce yourself. I remember now-regular posters getting off with a bad start (I'm thinking Wench here, could be wrong, though), but are now accepted. Usually the first at least fifty, rather hundred posts get pretty much ignored, or so it seems, because they are not specifically answered. After that interaction starts. And how you made those first posts will eventually be totally forgotten.

I said most. I didn't say all posters lurked first.

 

[CutieMouse]

It's only open to a select few.

and

No, there's no line. Seriously, who'd want it?

Honey- please. You are the amazing, opinionated, no BS Miss Rose. If I were gay I'd be perving all over you... as it is I just quietly sit back and respect you. (and once I even cyber pounced on yoru cute ass, to hopefully make you smile...) Who'd want it? Pfft! Who wouldn't?

And RJ- damnit man, how is it you manage to prick at my conscience, with only three words? Is it like some weird Vulcan-Cowboy-Dom-Mind-Meld-Trick thing?

(note to self: if you can't be nice, bite your tongue, and avoid syrupy bliss BDSM Master threads until your heart's better healed...)

 

[chris9]

As to the mess, chaos, what you wanna call it. There was this thread not long ago that shows pretty well that to many women here the traditional housewife role vs. the feministic working woman role is very emotionally loaded. I get very mad when I hear something along the lines of 'all women should be housewives/subservient to husband'. Ironically I don't get as mad when the statement is along the lines of 'all women should have a career'. I don't think the last statement is any more right or wrong than the first, it just is not as emotional for me.
This thread hit this nerve, and it seems with many of the women here.

 

[chris9]

I said most. I didn't say all posters lurked first.

I know you did. I thought about posting what I did when rebecca first brought up the question of lurking. I didn't feel like posting at all then. When it came up again, and I was in a posting mood, I just did.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I get very mad when I hear something along the lines of 'all women should be housewives/subservient to husband'. Ironically I don't get as mad when the statement is along the lines of 'all women should have a career'. I don't think the last statement is any more right or wrong than the first, it just is not as emotional for me.

LOL, 'fraid both get under my skin but then I have never liked people making absolute statements about how anyone is supposed to live their life to be accepted and acceptable. I like that feminism gives women the opportunity to choose what is right for them as an individual, not being conditioned and dictated to as a gender. For me the initial disturbance did not have anything to do with the use of the word Lord, or the mention of women's supposed role as like I said before, I didn't really sit and read it...it came more from the unrealistic tones of the little I did skim and which as I mentioned earlier is often how many of us feel when it is all shiny and new and based more on the fantasy then actually reality at that point. Reality changes that floweriness a lot unless you get a Dom who likes to turn his sub into a pampered pillow princess who doesn't have to do anything she doesn't want to, and whose every whim is catered to in fear of losing her or upsetting her lovely manicure.

Catalina

 

[A Desert Rose]

Lady Aria is a screen-name. I find it no more amusing than catalina's name or mine or anyone else's.

LordDragonWolf is a screen-name (as well as a great friend of mine.) I find his name no more amusing than O'Mac or RJMasters.

A name's a name.

Being addressed (as in a title of respect) Lord or Lady is an entirely different subject from amusement. Unless it's the Lord and Lady of Wales (yea I know, it's actually the Duke and Duchess but for the sake of example, cut me some slack here), I won't be using it.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Semantics can be strange. Due to religious reasons and culture F associates the title 'Lord' with holiness and so won't alllow it's use.....for me, when I hear it I think of it more in terms of Lords and Ladies and would not have a problem using it as an honorific for the one I was owned by. No matter how hard we try, some things are ingrained into our brains never to be removed, or at least not easily. I do find many in the lifestyle equate it with a God though and when they use it they mean to equate their Dominant with Godlike status.....despite my not having a religious background, I cannot and will not do that. LOL, shock, horror, I see him as just a human, though a failry special one with some extraordinary gifts and talents.

Unfortunately, for all the pretty prose the OP has used, there is little universally relevant substance to the words because they are limited by her own perimeters of existence, that being an American woman thinking from an American point of reference. There is nothing wrong with that when you live inside that reality and don't question it's reality or relevance outside your geographic borders, but if you are going to claim that by being born a woman you are destined and meant to be subservient to men there is an obvious lack of knowledge about centuries old matriarchial societies and communities which have flourished and survived well being female minded and ruled. Even today they still exist in the same way they have for eons, with women being the ones who are respected and honoured and seen to continue the family lines and maintain their right to live a life which is female directed, not male.

I also find myself wondering how women who hold this view that their PYL is responsible for educating and directing their every thought and action, building them into an image of supposed female perfection, see it as service and subservience on their part. To me it is a lot of work for the male PYL while the female just sits and waits for everything to be done and decided...in my way of thinking it then becomes him serving her, providing service, and with barely time to breath or relax incase it all falls apart because the female cannot be expected to be able to do anything without direction and guidance constantly. It reminds me of the unrealisitic view some people have that 24/7 means the PYL has to be onguard at all times day and night, whip in hand, dealing out punishments for the slightest disobedience, directing every breath and movement with no time for sleep or work. Who is the enslaved then?


Catalina

 

[m wisdom]

There are many good replies here so I'm just going to say I agree with what Ammre and RJ said.

I did however find this quote very interesting:

“Freedom is not the license to do whatever you desire, but is the opportunity to become who you are.” (Sartre)

A very nice bit of wisdom hidden in the text.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Semantics can be strange. Due to religious reasons and culture F associates the title 'Lord' with holiness and so won't alllow it's use.....for me, when I hear it I think of it more in terms of Lords and Ladies and would not have a problem using it as an honorific for the one I was owned by. No matter how hard we try, some things are ingrained into our brains never to be removed, or at least not easily. I do find many in the lifestyle equate it with a God though and when they use it they mean to equate their Dominant with Godlike status.....despite my not having a religious background, I cannot and will not do that. LOL, shock, horror, I see him as just a human, though a failry special one with some extraordinary gifts and talents.

Catalina

I agree with you. For me though, it's not about religion. It's about sounding archeaic and fake. Lord and Lady sounds medieval to me. A Domme I respect (Shadowsdream or Eb for instance) is addressed as Ma'am by me, unless she prefers another title. Up to this point, neither of them have ever objected.

On the other hand, there is no Dom here, or anywhere else for that matter, who I would seriously address even as Sir, let alone Lord. I have no explanation for this double standard. The only man I refer to (in the context we are now speaking) as Sir is my Dom.

 

[RJMasters]

Honey- please. You are the amazing, opinionated, no BS Miss Rose. If I were gay I'd be perving all over you... as it is I just quietly sit back and respect you. (and once I even cyber pounced on yoru cute ass, to hopefully make you smile...) Who'd want it? Pfft! Who wouldn't?

And RJ- damnit man, how is it you manage to prick at my conscience, with only three words? Is it like some weird Vulcan-Cowboy-Dom-Mind-Meld-Trick thing?

(note to self: if you can't be nice, bite your tongue, and avoid syrupy bliss BDSM Master threads until your heart's better healed...)

The way you say "prick my conscience" makes me think of forbidden, unconsentual cosimic powers.

As for the weird Vulcan-Cowboy-Dom-Mind-Meld-Trick thing....

Cool, ain't it?


I have more I would like to say, but I am too tired to articulate it now.

 

[callinectes]

Again, I find this fascinating.

Is "Lady Aria" as amusing to you as "Lord So-and-So"?

If not, why not?

Bear in mind, I live in the semi-rural deep South where one can't throw a rock without hitting a sign or bumper sticker with some reference to The Lord. So for me, the word Lord has a very strong religous connotation.

 

[CutieMouse]

The way you say "prick my conscience" makes me think of forbidden, unconsentual cosimic powers.

As for the weird Vulcan-Cowboy-Dom-Mind-Meld-Trick thing....

Cool, ain't it?


I have more I would like to say, but I am too tired to articulate it now.

Mmm... I'd say more frustrating than cool.

(Thank you, RJ.)

 

[Etoile]

Again, I find this fascinating.

Is "Lady Aria" as amusing to you as "Lord So-and-So"?

If not, why not?

Yes, in a BDSM context. In a royal or historical context, not so much. Although I think a reason others might find Lady more acceptable than Lord is because "lady" is used far more frequently in normal conversation than "lord" is. But for me personally, I think it's amusing in a BDSM context. Like I said though, if people want to use that, I'm fine with it. Notice that I'm not saying Lord and Lady shouldn't be used, nor am I denigrating those who use them. It just sounds funny to my ears.

As for "Lady Aria" specifically - yeah, that's a screen name. For all I know she is an SCA aficionado and it has nothing to do with BDSM.

 

[Etoile]

As to the mess, chaos, what you wanna call it. There was this thread not long ago that shows pretty well that to many women here the traditional housewife role vs. the feministic working woman role is very emotionally loaded. I get very mad when I hear something along the lines of 'all women should be housewives/subservient to husband'. Ironically I don't get as mad when the statement is along the lines of 'all women should have a career'. I don't think the last statement is any more right or wrong than the first, it just is not as emotional for me.
This thread hit this nerve, and it seems with many of the women here.

This isn't directed at chris9, but her post gives me an opportunity to clarify something.

I dearly hope nobody here thinks my initial reaction had anything to do with the content of the essay. I still have not read it, although I have gleaned the contents from others' responses. My reaction was solely based on two things: first, the idea of one's first post being a scholarly essay, or diatribe, or whatever you want to call it. As incubus'_sub said in the other thread (which was in BDSM Talk but has been removed), the original post sounded like the OP's Lord had ordered her to write it and post it here for our education and/or edification. I don't appreciate that in the exact same way I don't appreciate being asked to think up someone's punishment - I'm not in the relationship, it's none of my business, and I have no interest in participating. So because I perceived this as that kind of post - the OP has since said it was of her own accord - my initial reaction was unfavorable.

So that's the first reason: her first post. The second reason is because her second post was the exact same thing, but posted in the Cafe rather than Talk. This demonstrated that she had no interest in learning about Lit forum culture before posting. Had she watched for a bit, she would have seen that these two forums have distinct purposes, and that her thread fit very well in BDSM Talk. In my opinion, double-posting to the Cafe was self-centered, possibly inconsiderate, and maybe even bordering on spammy.

I hope that clarifies why I responded the way I did...it really had nothing to do with the content of the essay.

 

[Etoile]

I'll chime in with my thoughts on the essay, too.

My perspective, as a feminist, is that the OP has every right to find freedom in servitude. It's not misguided, it's not wrong, it's just what's right for her. Likewise, women have the right to be independent and reject 18th century ideals and do what they like without a man telling them what to do. (I do note that the OP's essay completely left out gays and lesbians, oh well.)

To me, feminism is NOT saying women should be independent and not submit to men. Feminism is saying that women can do WHAT THEY WANT, whatever that may be. That is the definition for feminism that I use.

I partially object to being lectured to about "you must submit to a man," but I also don't really care. I know what I can and cannot do. I support free speech, and that means if somebody wants to say all that stuff about "you must submit to a man," that's okay with me. I just don't necessarily listen.

 

[catalina_francisco]

the other thread (which was in BDSM Talk but has been removed),

Not removed, just merged with this one...couldn't see the need for it to be posted in both sections of the same forum. I managed to wade through it today and I didn't find it scholarly at all, just preachy with a lot of 'female weak, male so strong and wise' inferences, with one commonly quoted quote from Sartre. I also get the feeling that it was at the direction of her PYL more so than as an independently written piece of thought out of the blue.

Catalina

 

[Etoile]

Not removed, just merged with this one...couldn't see the need for it to be posted in both sections of the same forum.

Ooh, I missed that, thanks for clearing it up.

 

[RJMasters]

I dearly hope nobody here thinks my initial reaction had anything to do with the content of the essay.

I certainly don't Etoile. I understood that your excahnge was clearly over posting methods, and the OP was rather snippy about it. As Rebecca said, you are known for your gracious and fairness. As a newbie posting it to both sections may have or may not have been done in ignorance and I can understand the inflamatory and preachy nature of the essay itself can lead to suspicion of it being considered spamish.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

I am going really un PC here but as far as I am concerned 'lilmiss' behaved consistently like a 'lilmiss' from her initial dual posting to the sarcastic tone her post took when she didn't get whatever her 'lilmiss' perceived response portfolio met.

I am Australian , we know sarcasm , its the basis of our humor and rarely used in the more conventional sense. People whom know me know well how its employed to generate a smile.

When Etoile said she was retiring and the final 'lilmis' comment was 'sweet dreams and that >> '.......it was enough for me . I don't care if 'lilmiss' returns here to post or not.

Simply put 'there are enough insincere, disingenuous bitches in this World , submissive or not' and I'll be damned if I am throwing down the proverbial welcome mat for another one.

ooops see why I would prefer 50% of Etoile's Diplomacy...........

 

[catalina_francisco]

I am going really un PC here but as far as I am concerned 'lilmiss' behaved consistently like a 'lilmiss' from her initial dual posting to the sarcastic tone her post took when she didn't get whatever her 'lilmiss' perceived response portfolio met.

I am Australian , we know sarcasm , its the basis of our humor and rarely used in the more conventional sense. People whom know me know well how its employed to generate a smile.

When Etoile said she was retiring and the final 'lilmis' comment was 'sweet dreams and that >> '.......it was enough for me . I don't care if 'lilmiss' returns here to post or not.

Simply put 'there are enough insincere, disingenuous bitches in this World , submissive or not' and I'll be damned if I am throwing down the proverbial welcome mat for another one.

ooops see why I would prefer 50% of Etoile's Diplomacy...........

LOL, well we Aussies do get into trouble for saying exactly what is on our minds sometimes, without prettying it up or beating around the bush.

Catalina