This & That - A Writerly Thread

[elsol]

I still have a crush on you, grammar nazi or not.

I got one on you so we're even

 

[McKenna]

I got one on you so we're even

No you didn't. But it's okay, you get an A for effort.

 

[McKenna]

The problem is that we tend to reach for 'that' very naturally.

If you don't use it instead of which or who, the infestation seems a lot better... so you can get away with more conjustive-insertions.

I've been the wipe-outs for so long (that) I can now see where the word gives an air of informality. Like I very rarely use "can't", "won't".. except in dialogue, to give the illusion that dialogue is more natural (when it's not).

I would write completely without it, except in cases where my goal is a more informal prose.

Edited to add: With the caveat that (by the way... this that WAS necessary) my prose tends to be minimalist.

It's almost like we use "that" in speech where a comma would suffice in writing.

 

[elsol]

It's almost like we use "that" in speech where a comma would suffice in writing.

I think even the comma is most of the written uses of "that" is unnecessary.

It feels awkward because we're saying it to ourselves and struggling over every word... but I think readers barely notice the lack thereof.

 

[cheerful_deviant]

Is it a bad thing that I like to consider my self a writer (or 'hack' as some others have called me) but I have almost no idea what you people are talking about when you refer to the rules of gramar.

It's been so long since I took any writing classes I honestly can say I remember almost nothing of the rules. Also, my degree is in Civil Engineering and you can probablly guess how much emphasis they put on grammar at an Engineering school.

 

[McKenna]

Is it a bad thing that I like to consider my self a writer ...

This is what we're talking about.

Is it a bad thing I like to consider myself a writer?

Is it a bad thing that I like to consider myself a writer?




ElSol: I think you're absolutely right: I think we fuss over it and notice it far more than most any reader ever would.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This is what we're talking about.

Is it a bad thing I like to consider myself a writer?

Is it a bad thing that I like to consider myself a writer?




ElSol: I think you're absolutely right: I think we fuss over it and notice it far more than most any reader ever would.

I think it's a very good thing that Ducky considers himself a writer!

And we fuss over it because it's our job. If we do it right, the readers really don't notice; good writing is invisible.

 

[McKenna]

...
And we fuss over it because it's our job. If we do it right, the readers really don't notice; good writing is invisible.

This is sig-worthy!

 

[Weird Harold]

Here's the dilemma: Should "that" be omitted in the following sentence:

I recommend you stop speeding. vs. I recommend that you stop speeding.

Way back in the dark ages, I was taught about "implied" parts of speech -- in effect that "that" is present in both versions!

Native speakers will mentally add the implied "that" in the first example, but a non-native speaker will almot alway add the explicit "that" of the second version.

Also, way back in the dark ages, I was taught about Formal and Informal "modes" of writing -- using implied parts of speech is perfectly acceptable in an informal letter to a pen-pal but totally unacceptable in a technical manual or letter to total stranger.

Those "antique" distinctions about formal and informal and nuances of implied vs explicit part of speech have largely been forgotten or deemed irrelevant to "modern" language.

 

[Stella_Omega]

...Native speakers will mentally add the implied "that" in the first example, but a non-native speaker will almot alway add the explicit "that" of the second version...

Giving a character careful, excessively proper speech is a good way to create a "foreign" voice. Add one or two misused words and a soupçon of "Sorry for my English" and you've got it!