This makes me ill

[Shankara20]

No more Gold Star Moms, please.

well stated
your full post -

 

[ThorkelGriersen]

Consider the Source

"I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil."

Alan Greenspan​

"The Age of Turbulence"​

The week before this fandango began Halliburton stock was @$19.50; today after a 2/1 split it is worth over $80--not counting dividends.

Dick Chaney said: "Thanks suckers. Now make your ass disappear." PS Cheney spent at least the first term in the White House collecting checks from Halliburton.

When people finally wise up, this crap will end. A draft puts enough people in the way of the meat grinder that they begin to take it all seriously.

Before the next election there will be enough economic turbulence to get everone's attention. Count on it.

 

[Homburg]

well stated
your full post -

Thank you. I wish there wasn't a need to say such things.

 

[Luvkitty33]

My God, this makes me physically ill!!!! How people are treated that sacraficed so much of their lives to protect our country and allow us to have what we have is disgusting. What makes it even worse is that I've seen several programs on TV lately and even a documentary about veterans that served in Iraq, and the focus is always on the good stuff. I can't remember the names of these homes, but they're homes that were built for vets to go to, along with their families, while they heal (which I think is wonderful, bu the way.). I've seen programs that showed amputees and brain injured vets smiling with politicians shaking their hands while giving them medals and documentaries with TV stars interviewing them, and the only horrors that are mentioned are how they became injured. None of the horrors that they've been through since coming back to the country they sacrificed to serve and protect are ever mentioned. Then to read something like this article and realize that the stories discussed in it are far more the norm that what's shown on TV just makes me sick!!

What Homburg talked about as his brother's experience is a wonderful success story, but I have a feeling that is not what is happening to most of the vets.....especially the injured ones. I'm not sure about this, forgive me if I'm way off base here, but I've kind of gotten the impression that a lot of people enlist in the military because they feel it's their only option to a productive life or because they are escaping something. Some are just plain talked into it. From what I've read, it sounds like a lot of the negatives that can happen are never mentioned when they go to enlist. Some people, like Homburg's brother, are, I don't want to say intelligent enough, but are aware enough maybe to pay attention to the fine print, to ask questions, to know how to take advantage of the opportunities that the military can offer them, etc. Unfortunately, that is not always the case. It doesn't make those people bad or wrong, and honestly, I feel that it's the reqruitment officers' responsibility to educate these young men and women before they sign away so much to sacrifice what they do for all of us. These people are so young, and not all of them come from backgrounds that have taught them to look out for themselves (like Homburg's brother having him to help him, etc.), and not all of them have people in their lives that help them to see the potential consequences of enlisting and/or the potential opportunities that serving can allow them and how to take advantage of them. I know that we consider people that are 18 to be adults, but come on, they aren't even allowed to drink alcohol yet, and they come from vastly different educational backgrounds, families and life experiences. Some just, frankly, don't know what they're getting themselves into.

Somewhere along the line, there should be someone that discusses this kind of stuff with people that are enlisting so that they can make the best choices for themselves and can take advantage of the opportunities that are offered. I think this doesn't happen because "we're" afraid that too many people would decide to NOT enlist if they knew all the potential negatives that could happen. My feelings on this have come from hearing a lot of vets speak about just this very issue. I wonder how many men and women would still make the life-changing decision to enlist if they were fully aware of things such as what this article discussed?

How very tragic and disgusting the treatment that our injured vets are receiving after what they've given up for all of us!! I'm both apalled, sickened, and embarrassed!!! Shame on "us!"

 

[Netzach]

I would like to see the US have a value system that encouraged everyone to give to the country in some way for at least two years direct service between high school and college - military service, teachers aid, - something to help us all while sorting out what to study if they do go on to college.

I agree with this. Compulsory, for everyone, in some capacity, putting something in. AS LONG AS:

your health care, housing, and food, were adequately adressed. In fact if you wanted to extend your service career, it seems to me like it should be made a financially viable career choice. Instead we have VISTA - I had Americorps friends giving the VISTA people food it's so bad.

 

[RJMasters]

It's not like I'm talking about the government teat here either - I'm simply talking about creating and upholding opportunities for people who have put in the ultimate investments. This is insane...new lows, I really think

It has been this way for a very long time. Currently you are focused on those who get out and yes...I have been there and done that and finding a job was next to impossible. I mean I could kill a man at 500 yards, but that is not impressive on a job resume unless your applying for a mecinarry position.

I think the thing that was an eye opener for me...was finding out that most 80%+ E-1 - E-4 families are living from payday to payday and using food stamps to feed their kids. We are talking about active duty personnel here.

When you think of poor people who's income is so low that they qualify for government food programs and other government assissted programs, you also need to include 80%+ of all enlisted active duty personnel, because their pay is so low, they are way below the poverty curve.

When I was an E-3 in the marines, I remember all of my money going to barely meet the bills, and we relied upon food stamps to feed my wife, my baby girl. I often ate free at the messhall in order to help stretch the food at home.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

And it should everyone.

Chuckling here. i'd go into historical detail, but it would be sadistic beyond measure. On a tangent, try Anna Quindlen's article.

 

[Netzach]

Chuckling here. i'd go into historical detail, but it would be sadistic beyond measure. On a tangent, try Anna Quindlen's article.

I was reading further data suggesting that a returning vet is even *more* likely to be homeless if she's a she.

No huge shock, either, but quite outrageous.

 

[Netzach]

It has been this way for a very long time. Currently you are focused on those who get out and yes...I have been there and done that and finding a job was next to impossible. I mean I could kill a man at 500 yards, but that is not impressive on a job resume unless your applying for a mecinarry position.

I think the thing that was an eye opener for me...was finding out that most 80%+ E-1 - E-4 families are living from payday to payday and using food stamps to feed their kids. We are talking about active duty personnel here.

When you think of poor people who's income is so low that they qualify for government food programs and other government assissted programs, you also need to include 80%+ of all enlisted active duty personnel, because their pay is so low, they are way below the poverty curve.

When I was an E-3 in the marines, I remember all of my money going to barely meet the bills, and we relied upon food stamps to feed my wife, my baby girl. I often ate free at the messhall in order to help stretch the food at home.

That too. The issue is getting minimal coverage but it hasn't escaped my notice. It really bothers me that private charities are stepping in to do things the government is supposed to be doing - not that people are contributing and stepping in to the degree they are but that they *have to* and because people are not wondering why they *have to* - in the case of furnishing military families with basic decencies and in the case of disasters like Katrina - I personally believe there are core things that a government is supposed to do for people who live in the country and definitely core things that people who fight in defense of a country need to be guaranteed. We're supposed to have higher standards than the places people leave in order to live here every day and in this case we're not.

 

[Luvkitty33]

It has been this way for a very long time. Currently you are focused on those who get out and yes...I have been there and done that and finding a job was next to impossible. I mean I could kill a man at 500 yards, but that is not impressive on a job resume unless your applying for a mecinarry position.

I think the thing that was an eye opener for me...was finding out that most 80%+ E-1 - E-4 families are living from payday to payday and using food stamps to feed their kids. We are talking about active duty personnel here.

When you think of poor people who's income is so low that they qualify for government food programs and other government assissted programs, you also need to include 80%+ of all enlisted active duty personnel, because their pay is so low, they are way below the poverty curve.

When I was an E-3 in the marines, I remember all of my money going to barely meet the bills, and we relied upon food stamps to feed my wife, my baby girl. I often ate free at the messhall in order to help stretch the food at home.

Something else I didn't know. It's dispicable, really! The ultimate sacrifice being made and this is how our country chooses to show its appreciation.

Can I ask how long ago you were in the Marines?

 

[RJMasters]

Something else I didn't know. It's dispicable, really! The ultimate sacrifice being made and this is how our country chooses to show its appreciation.

Can I ask how long ago you were in the Marines?

Joined in 86 spent 8 years in.

 

[coy_one]

My sub is an attorney that fights on behalf of veterans and their rights. He says that it is so hard to leave work at work with the shit he sees.

I think it is absolutely disgusting. Everytime I see someone from the armed forces, I actually go up to them and thank them for what they are doing. I wish I could do more, but I want them to know that their commitment is appreciated.

 

[Blushing Bottom]

Ditto that.

Oddly enough I grew up in such housing, built and designed for Vets and their families but when the late 60's early 70's there were loud cries about discrimination, the requirement of being a Vet to live there was lifted and now it is a hot bed for drug and other illegal activities.

Sad the way things don't always change for the better.

Yeah and in cities like the one I live in and was born in and raised in... back in the 60's, the fed gov created subsidized housing projects for veterans and thier families... and now are tearing them down with no care nor plan to rebuild.
But we still have homeless people.....
We still have homeless vets.
And, we have more vets by the day and still growing......
It's as simple as reading the local paper to see all this scandalous shit with forgetting WHO gave ALL to make this country/state/city what it is.......
Makes me sick too.

 

[Blushing Bottom]

Interesting. I sent that along to my last Dom who was SF and had his own thoughts about of women in the military.

Oh and I was able to save the egg making me a Safety Officer...First Class.

Chuckling here. i'd go into historical detail, but it would be sadistic beyond measure. On a tangent, try Anna Quindlen's article.

 

[Mazuri]

Something else I didn't know. It's dispicable, really! The ultimate sacrifice being made and this is how our country chooses to show its appreciation.

Can I ask how long ago you were in the Marines?

My husband is currently active duty and E-4 and below with dependents still qualify for food stamps and WIC. We never utilized it ourselves...too damn proud for our own good...but I've seen many others who had to in order to make ends meet.

Drafts? HELL NO and not for the reasons one might think. I don't want someone in my Air Force who doesn't want to be there. Hands down, pure and simple. There are enough in there already who are there for the free college but didn't think they'd have to actually do "military stuff". They're more useless than tits on a board and we don't need more useless folks.

As for the issues with returning soldiers...I think I'll leave that one alone. My opinions are uninformed as far as the Army goes and how they handle their troops. I don't know what programs they have in place or what they are doing to try to prevent this prior to the military member leaving the service. However, most of these programs are voluntary and only work if they are utilized.

 

[h_i_s]

Ditto that.

Oddly enough I grew up in such housing, built and designed for Vets and their families but when the late 60's early 70's there were loud cries about discrimination, the requirement of being a Vet to live there was lifted and now it is a hot bed for drug and other illegal activities.

Sad the way things don't always change for the better.

I grew up in 'public housing' in the 70's too. One of those vets was my stepdad who was a consistant part of my household from the ages of 2-19. He was pretty heavy into street drugs from the time he came home. He spent most of his time, during the hours after work, getting high with his war buddies. I recall very clearly that the drug and other activities included veterans of the Vietnam war.

Most of my memories growing up in the 70's are not made of the things I care to recall. I remember vets and thier families discussing (and being frustrated and in despair regarding) where to get the less than adequate medical and other benefits and assistance which was promised and which they absolutely needed. There was so much anger. The programs were utilized. Some were useful, and others were rendered 'less than' and 'not at all'. Even as a young kid I understood to some degree how unfair, inexcusable, and wrong the whole deal (that our vets received when they returned) was. And because I was a just a young kid and could 'see', it angered me even then to think that so many could find it within themselves not to see and not to care.

And this is just an very bief and limited illustration of what it was like regarding my stepfather. My father is a Vietnam war vet also. A few of my uncles were too. Most of thier friends were/are.

And some things just never change at all. It was sick then. It IS still sick now, even after all of these years.

P.S. And foodstamps were a godsend (WIC was unheard of back then) once they were invented..... before that we ate green powdered eggs, powdered milk and 5 pound blocks or orange (oily .. weirdest shit I ever ate) cheese. And I remember canned meat. It was an odd paste that we spread on toast. And huge cans of peanut butter with a pool of oil on top which had to be mixed in before use. It was what we had and we were greatful to have it mainly because there were times when we didn't even have that...so we didn't complain ...... too much.
What I wouldn't have given back then for what WIC offers now....

 

[JMohegan]

Oh I guess someone finally caved. At the time I first heard the question asked it was a resounding none, maybe 2 years ago.

Your friend's story is essentially how this should function, or should be able to function if someone has the brightness and drive, as he clearly did. I've worked for a lot of guys with similar backgrounds, and H has worked with a lot of guys with similar backgrounds...mostly in the 45-60 age range to date.

One needs a house to get a job! One needs a residence to apply to go to school!

I play this story against the narratives in the Walter Reed one and it's hard to imagine that there are not doors shutting more often than opening.

Jim Webb, Democratic senator from Virgina, elected '06, is a Vietnam vet with a son currently serving as an infantry Marine in Iraq.

First thing he did on taking office in January was to introduce a bill to "provide veterans of the 9/11 era with educational benefits similar to those provided to service members at the end of World War II."

I don't think this is a coincidence.

Netzach, he is trying to do exactly what you suggest in your opening post - to enact a program modeled on the World War II era G.I. bill. The proposal is currently mired in the legislative process. To read more about it, click me.

 

[JMohegan]

That too. The issue is getting minimal coverage but it hasn't escaped my notice. It really bothers me that private charities are stepping in to do things the government is supposed to be doing - not that people are contributing and stepping in to the degree they are but that they *have to* and because people are not wondering why they *have to* - in the case of furnishing military families with basic decencies and in the case of disasters like Katrina - I personally believe there are core things that a government is supposed to do for people who live in the country and definitely core things that people who fight in defense of a country need to be guaranteed. We're supposed to have higher standards than the places people leave in order to live here every day and in this case we're not.

You're preaching to the choir here as far as I'm concerned, but dare I suggest that the furnishing of "basic decencies" should not hinge on military service or victimhood in a large scale natural disaster?

I realize that the issues are complex, but generally speaking, to put it in grossly over-simplified terms: "They're here and they're hungry" is a good enough reason for me.

 

[ecstaticsub]

My husband is active duty and close to retirement. He has been deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan and will most likely have to be deployed one more time before retirement.

From my perspective it is the repeated deployments that are the most difficult. After the first one I had the feeling "ok, he is home safe we did our fair share, the war will be over by the time he has to go again". Then the 2nd deployment comes up and the war is still going on. We are told he will be deployed for longer this time. But I think, ok we can do this, we did it before we can do it again so for a little bit longer. My entire living room/ dining room floor was covered with gear--uniforms, chem gear, etc. My kids are still young. When a child looks at all that laid out and asks "But Daddy will be ok, he will come home right?" I want to say of course he will be home. But I can't. They are smart enough deep inside to know that I can't promise that. They know the X family. They remember going over to their house and playing with their kids. They also know that Maj X did not come home, won't ever be coming home. So I can't lie. I try to reassure them that Daddy is well trained with well trained people. Then turn the focus on what we will do at home to support him. All while crying inside trying to convince myself that he will be home.

My husband did come home from his 2nd deployment. But as Graceanne said no one comes back the same way as they went over. And when they do come back the workload at the office is staggering. He got barely a week off and then it is back to 14 hr days and many weekends. I asked him if he thought he should see a therapist just to talk things over. No way, no time. Any time not working he wants and needs to be with him family.

I have asked him what he thinks about a draft. He is tired and overworked, but he is very much against a draft. He doesn't want people working with him who don't want to be there. They become more work then help.

I am hoping that something will come up so that he won't have to deploy again. But even that hope makes me feel guilty. He is of the rank and career field where we know personally most others in the same position. If he doesn't go one of our friends will.

A great site with ways you can support the troops is www.americasupportsyou.mil Knowing that they are not forgetten means so much.

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[Luvkitty33]

My husband is active duty and close to retirement. He has been deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan and will most likely have to be deployed one more time before retirement.

From my perspective it is the repeated deployments that are the most difficult. After the first one I had the feeling "ok, he is home safe we did our fair share, the war will be over by the time he has to go again". Then the 2nd deployment comes up and the war is still going on. We are told he will be deployed for longer this time. But I think, ok we can do this, we did it before we can do it again so for a little bit longer. My entire living room/ dining room floor was covered with gear--uniforms, chem gear, etc. My kids are still young. When a child looks at all that laid out and asks "But Daddy will be ok, he will come home right?" I want to say of course he will be home. But I can't. They are smart enough deep inside to know that I can't promise that. They know the X family. They remember going over to their house and playing with their kids. They also know that Maj X did not come home, won't ever be coming home. So I can't lie. I try to reassure them that Daddy is well trained with well trained people. Then turn the focus on what we will do at home to support him. All while crying inside trying to convince myself that he will be home.

My husband did come home from his 2nd deployment. But as Graceanne said no one comes back the same way as they went over. And when they do come back the workload at the office is staggering. He got barely a week off and then it is back to 14 hr days and many weekends. I asked him if he thought he should see a therapist just to talk things over. No way, no time. Any time not working he wants and needs to be with him family.

I have asked him what he thinks about a draft. He is tired and overworked, but he is very much against a draft. He doesn't want people working with him who don't want to be there. They become more work then help.

I am hoping that something will come up so that he won't have to deploy again. But even that hope makes me feel guilty. He is of the rank and career field where we know personally most others in the same position. If he doesn't go one of our friends will.

A great site with ways you can support the troops is www.americasupportsyou.mil Knowing that they are not forgetten means so much.

Hugs to you and to Graceann. I can't even imagine how difficult that must be on you and your families.....especially the little ones. You, your families, and your husbands (and all the men and women serving our country) are in my prayers.

 

[NALA CAYENNE]

Everytime I see someone from the armed forces, I actually go up to them and thank them for what they are doing. I wish I could do more, but I want them to know that their commitment is appreciated.

I do the same thing, coy. Also, where I work there are a lot of relatives of folks in the military and we make shoebox care packages that we send out just after thanks giving for Christmas.

I also signed us up to be a drop off location for www.amillionthanks.org where we collect cards and letters and send them out to troops year round.

As a matter of fact, an easy thing we can all do with A Million Thanks begins on Nov. 17 and lasts through Nov. 22. The program is simple, all you do is text a message of thanks to 89279 and a member of the military will send you a text back.

The goal is to send a million text messages and if I'm not mistaken, all of the major cell phone companies are participating and making the text messages cost free.

 

[Luvkitty33]

The aftermath and trauma of war has always been an issue, it's just talked about more now (PTSD/etc), even though it's still not really talked about.

17 years ago I was working with the homeless ministry while in college. Twice a week we went to visit the guys who lived under the I-35E bridge near campus. We took them toiletries, books to read, fresh fruit... and tried to convince them to give halfway houses a try, or at least utilize the few services available through the VA.

75% of the men were Vietnam veterans
90% of them were alcoholics
roughly 60-80% had mental health issues
In the 18 months I worked with the ministry, we convinced ONE to get off the streets - he only lasted 2 months in the shelter/work program before he decided it was too restrictive and went back to the streets.

The system has failed (and continues to fail) the veterans, but the issue is complicated. Even if every service on the planet was freely available, there would be people who would refuse to utilize them. The programs would still (probably) be government run - which means terribly ineffecient and bogged down in beurocracy. It's also difficult (IMO) to even run projections of how large of a system is needed... why did Joe Citizen from platoon X come back from Vietnam (Iraq, etc) with a host of issues and struggle for the rest of his life, while Bob Citizen from Platoon X experienced the same horrors, came home, and didn't fall apart? How do you plan to adequately cover the needs when you don't know who will need what, and you're looking at the possibility of those needs growing exponentially?



I'm sorry to be so harsh, but anyone who makes it to 18 without the understanding that signing up for the military means you agree you're ok with being killed, maimed, or otherwise damaged is an idiot. anyone who trusts the government to really take care of them after they come home from war is niave. (Not saying it can't happen or never happens - just that the mere fact of the government being involved pretty much guarantees it will be a long drawn out difficult proccess.) The military exsists to kill people and break things. It is their job. Even in times of "peace" it is still their job, which is why they teach people to do things like shoot guns and make them practice it a lot. I have a really hard time believing someone can reach the age of maturity, and not understand the risks of joining the military.

This part of your post (below) is kind of what my point is.

anyone who trusts the government to really take care of them after they come home from war is niave.

You're right about this, but the fact is that there are people who are enlisting who are just that. They are admitting it, and because of that they're making life-altering decisions without being fully informed. If they're going to make the sacrifices that they do for all of us, then I just think it should somehow be mandatory that there is some kind of counseling or something offered before they enlist. I don't know how this would work or if it's even a feaseable (sp?) idea, but I just think that there should be some way of making sure that they are giving informed consent before enlisting.

 

[Homburg]

As a matter of fact, an easy thing we can all do with A Million Thanks begins on Nov. 17 and lasts through Nov. 22. The program is simple, all you do is text a message of thanks to 89279 and a member of the military will send you a text back.

Please repost this or bump it or something when it gets closer to the date.

 

[JMohegan]

This is my gut response - it is late and the end of a long day so I am concerned my post will not be fully developed, it will not present the complicated opinion I have, and I might unintentionally offend someone - and that is not my intention.

I joined the Navy in the 60's to avoid being drafted out of college into the Army to become fodder for Viet Nam. I enjoyed the Navy and proud of my service, but I am no combat veteran.

I believe the draft in the late 60's directly led to the strong anti-war moment of that time - that drove Pres. Johnson out of office and plagued Pres. Nixon until he self-destructed. If we had a draft in the US right now, with no deferments of any kind, that drafted males and females alike, it is my feeling that we would have anti-war protests that would make the 60's and 70's look like nothing at all.

My oldest son is in the US Air Force and he is against the draft. He says he does not want to go into combat with someone next to him that that was forced into the fight. I can see his point.

I would like to see the US have a value system that encouraged everyone to give to the country in some way for at least two years direct service between high school and college - military service, teachers aid, - something to help us all while sorting out what to study if they do go on to college.

These are just some random thoughts.

I am also heart sick about how we have failed to support those we have placed in harms way. These young men and women are going where they are told, doing that they are told to do, being killed and wounded, killing others, as directed by men of power sitting is safe places far away from harm. They deserve our respect and our continuing emotional and financial support as long as needed - for their full lifetime.

A study done by San Francisco General Hospital Trauma Unit found, from researching Veterans Admin. files, that of the men who saw combat in Viet Nam, 21 1/2% committed acts of criminal violence upon their spouses at some point after returning home. That is a huge percentage. The damage of war is inflected on the veterans, their families, their communities. When we as a country decide to go to war we must tend to the wounded - all those damaged.

And I have not even started talking about the people in the country we invade - but that is for some other discussion.

Sorry for the rant.

Thanks for answering my question, Shank. I can't imagine why you would apologize for such a heartfelt and meaningful post.

I am about a decade younger than you, so I came of age too late to be drafted. But the issues surrounding the Vietnam War had an enormous impact on my formative years nevertheless.

Kent State, My Lai, etc. Some young men serving and returning with limbs blown off, yet facing public contempt that should have been directed at leaders from Kennedy onward. Other young men moving to Canada. These are the images and stories that frame my view of war.

I agree with you about the draft, and for precisely the reasons you mentioned. But your son really does have a good point with regard to someone like me.

In his Democratic response to Bush's State of the Union address, speaking about his own family's military service and that of others, Jim Webb said:

"Like so many other Americans, today and throughout our history, we serve and have served, not for political reasons, but because we love our country. On the political issues - those matters of war and peace, and in some cases of life and death - we trusted the judgment of our national leaders. We hoped that they would be right, that they would measure with accuracy the value of our lives against the enormity of the national interest that might call upon us to go into harm's way."

I don't have that kind of trust in current leaders, and I don't understand how someone serves effectively unless they do. Sure, I get the idea of shooting back when you're being shot at, and avoiding court martial by following orders. But dedicated service, or effective, zealous submission to the authority of alleged "superiors," ordering me to go take that hill just 'cause they say so, is a concept that I have a very difficult time imagining. I understand that many are able to divorce political views from their service, but I honestly have no idea how they do.