This is so wrong!
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Pure
Fiel a Verdad
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To NOT show photos of the dead Iraqis, the dead US soldiers, or of their returning coffins (pentagon policy) is a pro war agenda.
To do so is indeed an antiwar agenda.
I believe Colly is clear on these points.
Now is the tricky part: does the pro war agenda minimize further dead, as Cheney, Bush, suggest?
Or is the antiwar agenda more likely to?
The Vietnam experience suggests that the antiwar agenda-- the pictures of burning villages, the one of the girl with clothes burned off, those of dead soldiers-- helped end the war and kept the list of dead from getting ever longer (since it already reached 50,000). A tragedy was ended.
I feel Sher did not 'lash' out, and is on solid moral ground.
Cloudy, while having sincere feelings, ignores prowar agendas, as in downplaying the losses of US soldiers. She also ignores the (likely) effects of 'defending' and 'honoring' the dead in the way she does and wishes others would: That the dead bodies of others' loved ones continue to pile up.
Cloudy, imo, has deep and honest feelings, but enacting them as she does will likely prolong the tragedy.
J.
To do so is indeed an antiwar agenda.
I believe Colly is clear on these points.
Now is the tricky part: does the pro war agenda minimize further dead, as Cheney, Bush, suggest?
Or is the antiwar agenda more likely to?
The Vietnam experience suggests that the antiwar agenda-- the pictures of burning villages, the one of the girl with clothes burned off, those of dead soldiers-- helped end the war and kept the list of dead from getting ever longer (since it already reached 50,000). A tragedy was ended.
I feel Sher did not 'lash' out, and is on solid moral ground.
Cloudy, while having sincere feelings, ignores prowar agendas, as in downplaying the losses of US soldiers. She also ignores the (likely) effects of 'defending' and 'honoring' the dead in the way she does and wishes others would: That the dead bodies of others' loved ones continue to pile up.
Cloudy, imo, has deep and honest feelings, but enacting them as she does will likely prolong the tragedy.
J.
sweetnpetite
Intellectual snob
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cloudy said:
Cloudy, I respect your opinion, and agree with much of what you posted, however, this statement makes absolutly no sence to me.
How can you be proud to do something if you feel it is wrong, just because it is in the name of 'serving your country'? Doing something that you feel is wrong should make you feel ashamed, not proud. Now I'm not saying that our soldiers should be ashamed, many of them believe in why they are there, and that is fine for them. But the unquestioning 'loyalty' to God or Country is all that is needed for evil to proliferate. For pete's sake, it's how we got into this mess in the first place (the 9/11 attacks) We can't say that it's wrong for them and right for us. Every citizen, every person, has a responsibilty to decide for themselves, rather than being told, what is right and what is wrong and to act in accord. If blindly serving authority is the highest overruling virtue, then the suicide bombers will indeed have earned there entrance into heaven.
It's not like anybody here has never heard this, but it bears repeating:
‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’--Edmund Burke
sweetnpetite
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I had not seen the faces post when I read this, I just went over there. I haven't read the post through, but I checked the face page, and see absolutely nothing offensive about it.
If it's antiwar to honor the dead, or to see that soldiers are human beings and family membors I just don't even know. If it's anti-patriotic, or anti-american you can have my citizenship right now.
You can look at those faces any way you want- vitimes of a lying administration, fallen heroes, just a bunch of strangers who would have died eventually, relief that they are not your family or friends ect. ect.
I would agree that it would be propaganda if instead of 'smiling photo's' they showed the pictures of what they looked like *in there death* (not that I would necessarily be against that either- it's the truth, even though most of us prefer not to see it)
Of course when you join the military, the military itself shows you far worse pictures than this. Gee- maybe the military has an agenda? Maybe the military is guilty of propaganda? I'm in shock! Those who join the military are not shielded from what they will see in times of war, but for some reason they come to believe that it is necessary. Most of the rest of us who do not have there indoctrination would never be able to look upon those images and come to the same comclusion.
Sadly,
sweet.
If it's antiwar to honor the dead, or to see that soldiers are human beings and family membors I just don't even know. If it's anti-patriotic, or anti-american you can have my citizenship right now.
You can look at those faces any way you want- vitimes of a lying administration, fallen heroes, just a bunch of strangers who would have died eventually, relief that they are not your family or friends ect. ect.
I would agree that it would be propaganda if instead of 'smiling photo's' they showed the pictures of what they looked like *in there death* (not that I would necessarily be against that either- it's the truth, even though most of us prefer not to see it)
Of course when you join the military, the military itself shows you far worse pictures than this. Gee- maybe the military has an agenda? Maybe the military is guilty of propaganda? I'm in shock! Those who join the military are not shielded from what they will see in times of war, but for some reason they come to believe that it is necessary. Most of the rest of us who do not have there indoctrination would never be able to look upon those images and come to the same comclusion.
Sadly,
sweet.
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shereads
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SnP, I agree with you but I do want to stress that I don't feel anything for people who fall in battle except respect, and I never intended any disrespect when I attached my comment to the "faces" link.
At the time, I didn't even think of it as a political comment. I know there are people who think that we are in this war for some noble purpose, and I knew they would disagree with my words, but I didn't think they'd believe I dishonored the people I'd been grieving for an hour before I posted that link. I typed what I was thinking, and I was in fact wishing that the people who led us to war (including Mr. Chalabi who now says it doesn't matter that his WMD information was false because "it accomplished its goal") would look at this link sometimes, and see "our troops" as faces. Sometimes they are the faces of people who understood the risks they were taking and believed it was worth it; sometimes they are faces of kids who joined before war was a real possibility, because they needed a job.
In Newsweek last night, I read the back-page "speak out" letter. Anna Quindlan was writing about the prospect of reinstating the draft, which some people have proposed as a way to prevent a lopsided military where the people at the front lines are often the ones who needed a job, and are rarely the children of the people makikng the decisions. She reminded us that having the draft during Vietnam didn't make things more fair, because the exemption for college still left an easy out that was available only to those who could afford college (or had a scholarship, in Clinton's case.) She pointed out that there's one way to make military service a duty that is equally applied to all, without regard to wealth or class or educational opportunities (or sex, for that matter, but that's another discussion): reinstate the draft but eliminate the college exemption.
It won't happen, she said, because that would mean that the children of the people in power would be equally at risk with the children of families for whom college is no more an option than an invitation to a campaign fundraising dinner.
Our leaders would look at the word "troops" in a new light if their own kids were subject to an equitable draft. They'd see individuals, faces, not numbers of people.
When I posted "Faces," that's what was on my mind. Not that I might turn Cloudy or anyone else into a liberal democrat, but that I wished our leaders would have been as careful with these young lives as if they were their own. And that I wished I had been more vocal, written more letters, made more phone calls to my congressmen, to prevent this tragedy.
At the time, I didn't even think of it as a political comment. I know there are people who think that we are in this war for some noble purpose, and I knew they would disagree with my words, but I didn't think they'd believe I dishonored the people I'd been grieving for an hour before I posted that link. I typed what I was thinking, and I was in fact wishing that the people who led us to war (including Mr. Chalabi who now says it doesn't matter that his WMD information was false because "it accomplished its goal") would look at this link sometimes, and see "our troops" as faces. Sometimes they are the faces of people who understood the risks they were taking and believed it was worth it; sometimes they are faces of kids who joined before war was a real possibility, because they needed a job.
In Newsweek last night, I read the back-page "speak out" letter. Anna Quindlan was writing about the prospect of reinstating the draft, which some people have proposed as a way to prevent a lopsided military where the people at the front lines are often the ones who needed a job, and are rarely the children of the people makikng the decisions. She reminded us that having the draft during Vietnam didn't make things more fair, because the exemption for college still left an easy out that was available only to those who could afford college (or had a scholarship, in Clinton's case.) She pointed out that there's one way to make military service a duty that is equally applied to all, without regard to wealth or class or educational opportunities (or sex, for that matter, but that's another discussion): reinstate the draft but eliminate the college exemption.
It won't happen, she said, because that would mean that the children of the people in power would be equally at risk with the children of families for whom college is no more an option than an invitation to a campaign fundraising dinner.
Our leaders would look at the word "troops" in a new light if their own kids were subject to an equitable draft. They'd see individuals, faces, not numbers of people.
When I posted "Faces," that's what was on my mind. Not that I might turn Cloudy or anyone else into a liberal democrat, but that I wished our leaders would have been as careful with these young lives as if they were their own. And that I wished I had been more vocal, written more letters, made more phone calls to my congressmen, to prevent this tragedy.
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sweetnpetite
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You know for a really interesting perspective on this, check out "The once and Future King" Yep, King Arthor. He has a conversation or two with Merlin about war, the nature of war and weather or not it was a 'splendid battle."
shereads said:
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sweetnpetite
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I found it online
Well,’ said Arthur, ‘I must say it is nice to be a king. It was a splendid battle.’
‘Do you think so?’
‘Of course it was splendid. Look at the way Lot of Orkney ran, after I had begun to use Excalibur.’
‘He got you down first.’
‘That was nothing. It was because I was not using Excalibur. As soon as I drew my trusty sword they ran like rabbits.’
‘They will come again,’ said the magician, ‘all six. The Kings of Orkney, Garloth, Gore, Scotland, The Tower, and the Hundred Knights have started already — in fact, the Gaelic Confederation. You must remember that your claim to the throne is hardly a conventional one.’
‘Let them come,’ replied the King. ‘I don’t mind. I will beat them properly this time, and then we will see who is master.’
The old man crammed his beard in his mouth and began to chew it, as he generally did when he was put about. He bit through one of the hairs, which stuck between two teeth. He tried to lick it off, then took it out with his finger. Finally he began curling it into two points.
‘I suppose you will learn some day,’ he said, ‘but God knows it is heartbreaking, uphill work.’
‘Oh?’
‘Yes,’ cried Merlyn passionately. ‘Oh? oh? oh? That is all you can say. Oh? oh? oh? Like a schoolboy?’
‘I shall cut off your head if you are not careful.’
‘Cut it off. It would be a good thing if you did. I should not have to keep on tutoring, at any rate.’
Arthur shifted his elbow on the battlement and looked at his ancient friend.
‘What is the matter, Merlyn?’ he asked. ‘Have I been doing something wrong? I am sorry if I have.’
The magician uncurled his beard and blew his nose.
‘It is not so much what you are doing,’ he said. ‘It is how you are thinking. If there is one thing I can’t stand, it is stupidity. I always say that stupidity is the Sin against the Holy Ghost.’
‘I know you do.’
‘Now you are being sarcastic.’
The King took him by the shoulder and turned him around. ‘Look,’ he said, ‘what is wrong? Are you in a bad temper? If I have done something stupid, tell me. Don’t be in a bad temper.’
It had the effect of making the aged nigromant angrier than before.
‘Tell you!’ he exclaimed. ‘And what is going to happen when there is nobody to tell you? Are you never going to think for yourself? What is going to happen when I am locked up in this wretched tumulus of mine, I should like to know?’
‘I didn’t know there was a tumulus in it.’
‘Oh hang the tumulus. What tumulus? What am I supposed to be talking about?’
‘Stupidity,’ said Arthur. ‘It was stupidity when we started.’
‘Exactly.’
‘Well, it’s no good saying Exactly. You were going to say something about it.’
‘I don’t know what I was going to say about it. You put one in such a passion with all your this and that, that I’m sure nobody would know what they were talking about for two minutes together. How did it begin?’
‘It began with the battle.’
‘Now I remember,’ said Merlyn. ‘That’s exactly where it did begin.’
‘It began with the battle.’
‘So I recollect’
‘Well, it was a good battle’ Arthur repeated defensively. ‘It was a jolly battle, and I won it myself, and it was fun.’
The magician’s eyes veiled themselves like a vulture’s, as he vanished inside his mind. There was silence on the battlements for several minutes, while a pair of peregrines that were being hacked in a nearby field flew over their heads in a playful chase, crying out Kik-kik-kik, their bells ringing. Merlyn looked out of his eyes once more.
‘It was clever of you,’ he said slowly, ‘to win the battle.’
Arthur had been taught that he ought to be modest, and he was too simple to notice that the vulture was going to pounce.
‘Oh well. It was luck.’
‘Very clever,’ repeated Merlyn. ‘How many of your kerns were killed?’
‘I don’t remember.’
‘No.’
‘Kay said —’
Arthur the King stopped in the middle of the sentence, and looked at him.
‘Well,’ he said. ‘It was not fun, then. I had not thought.’
‘The tally was more than seven hundred. They were all kerns, of course. None of the knights were injured, except the one who broke his leg falling off the horse.’
‘I was forgetting,’ Merlyn added, ‘that you had some really nasty bruises.’
Arthur glared at his finger-nails.
‘I hate you when you are a prig.’
Merlyn was charmed.
‘That’s the spirit,’ he said, putting his arm through the King’s and smiling cheefully. ‘That’s more like it. Stand up for yourself, that’s the ticket. Asking advice is the fatal thing. Besides, I won’t be here to advise you fairly soon.’
‘What is this you keep talking about, about not being here, and the tumulus and so on?’
‘It is nothing. I am due to fall in love with a girl called Nimue in a short time, and then she learns my spells and locks me up in a cave for several centuries. It is one of those things which are going to happen.’
‘But, Merlyn, how horrible! To be stuck in a cave for centuries like a toad in a hole! We must do something about it.’
‘Nonsense,’said the magician. ‘What was I talking about?’
‘About this maiden...’
‘I was talking about advice, and how you must never take it. Well, I am going to give you some now. I advise you to think about battles, and about your realm of Granmarye, and about the sort of things a king has to do. Will you do that?’
‘I will. Of course I will. But about this girl who learns your spells...’
‘You see, it is a question of the people, as well as of the kings. When you said about the battle being a lovely one, you were thinking like your father. I want you to think like yourself, so that you will be a credit to all this education I have been giving you — afterwards, when I am only an old man locked up in a hole.’
‘Merlyn!’
‘There, there! I was playing for sympathy. Never mind. I said it for effect. As a matter of fact, it will be charming to have a rest for a few hundred years, and, as for Nimue, I am looking backward to her a good deal. No, no, the important thing is this thinking-for-yourself business and the matter of battles. Have you ever thought seriously about the state of your country, for instance, or are you going to go on all your life being like Uther Pendragon? After all, you are the King of the place.’
‘I have not thought very much.’
‘No. Then let me do some thinking with you. Suppose we think about your Gaelic friend, Sir Bruce Sans Pitié.’
‘That fellow!’
‘Exactly. And why do you say it like that?’
‘He is a swine. He goes about murdering maidens — and, as soon as a real knight turns up to rescue them, he gallops off for all he is worth. He breeds special fast horses so that nobody can catch him, and he stabs people in the back. He’s a marauder. I would kill him at once if I could catch him.’
‘Well,’ she Merlyn, ‘I don’t think he is very different from the others. What is all this chivalry, anyway? It simply means being rich enough to have a castle and a suit of armour, and then, when you have them, you make the Saxon people do what you like. The only risk you run is of getting a few bruises if you happen to come across another knight. Look at that tilt you saw between Pellinore and Grunmore, when you were small. It is this armour that does it. All the barons can slice the poor people about as much as they want, and it is a day’s work to hurt each other and the result is that the country is devastated. Might is Right, that’s the motto. Bruce Sans Pitié is only an example of the general situation. Look at Lord and Nentres and Uriens and all that Gaelic crew, fighting against you for the Kingdom. Pulling swords out of stones is not a legal proof of paternity, I admit, but the kings of the Old Ones are not fighting you about that...
...This is their chance to pay off racial scores, and to have some blood-letting as sport, and to make a bit of money in ransoms. Their tubulence does not cost them anything themselves because they are dressed in armour — and you seem to enjoy it too. But look at the country. Look at the barns burned, and dead men’s legs sticking out of ponds, and horses with swelled bellies by the roadside, and mills falling down, and money buried, and nobody daring to walk abroad with gold or ornaments on their clothes. That is chivalry nowadays. That is the Uther Pendragon touch. And then you talk about a battle being fun.’
‘I was thinking of myself.’
‘I know.’
‘I ought to have thought of the people who had no armour.’
‘Quite.’
‘Might isn’t Right, is it Merlyn?’
Well,’ said Arthur, ‘I must say it is nice to be a king. It was a splendid battle.’
‘Do you think so?’
‘Of course it was splendid. Look at the way Lot of Orkney ran, after I had begun to use Excalibur.’
‘He got you down first.’
‘That was nothing. It was because I was not using Excalibur. As soon as I drew my trusty sword they ran like rabbits.’
‘They will come again,’ said the magician, ‘all six. The Kings of Orkney, Garloth, Gore, Scotland, The Tower, and the Hundred Knights have started already — in fact, the Gaelic Confederation. You must remember that your claim to the throne is hardly a conventional one.’
‘Let them come,’ replied the King. ‘I don’t mind. I will beat them properly this time, and then we will see who is master.’
The old man crammed his beard in his mouth and began to chew it, as he generally did when he was put about. He bit through one of the hairs, which stuck between two teeth. He tried to lick it off, then took it out with his finger. Finally he began curling it into two points.
‘I suppose you will learn some day,’ he said, ‘but God knows it is heartbreaking, uphill work.’
‘Oh?’
‘Yes,’ cried Merlyn passionately. ‘Oh? oh? oh? That is all you can say. Oh? oh? oh? Like a schoolboy?’
‘I shall cut off your head if you are not careful.’
‘Cut it off. It would be a good thing if you did. I should not have to keep on tutoring, at any rate.’
Arthur shifted his elbow on the battlement and looked at his ancient friend.
‘What is the matter, Merlyn?’ he asked. ‘Have I been doing something wrong? I am sorry if I have.’
The magician uncurled his beard and blew his nose.
‘It is not so much what you are doing,’ he said. ‘It is how you are thinking. If there is one thing I can’t stand, it is stupidity. I always say that stupidity is the Sin against the Holy Ghost.’
‘I know you do.’
‘Now you are being sarcastic.’
The King took him by the shoulder and turned him around. ‘Look,’ he said, ‘what is wrong? Are you in a bad temper? If I have done something stupid, tell me. Don’t be in a bad temper.’
It had the effect of making the aged nigromant angrier than before.
‘Tell you!’ he exclaimed. ‘And what is going to happen when there is nobody to tell you? Are you never going to think for yourself? What is going to happen when I am locked up in this wretched tumulus of mine, I should like to know?’
‘I didn’t know there was a tumulus in it.’
‘Oh hang the tumulus. What tumulus? What am I supposed to be talking about?’
‘Stupidity,’ said Arthur. ‘It was stupidity when we started.’
‘Exactly.’
‘Well, it’s no good saying Exactly. You were going to say something about it.’
‘I don’t know what I was going to say about it. You put one in such a passion with all your this and that, that I’m sure nobody would know what they were talking about for two minutes together. How did it begin?’
‘It began with the battle.’
‘Now I remember,’ said Merlyn. ‘That’s exactly where it did begin.’
‘It began with the battle.’
‘So I recollect’
‘Well, it was a good battle’ Arthur repeated defensively. ‘It was a jolly battle, and I won it myself, and it was fun.’
The magician’s eyes veiled themselves like a vulture’s, as he vanished inside his mind. There was silence on the battlements for several minutes, while a pair of peregrines that were being hacked in a nearby field flew over their heads in a playful chase, crying out Kik-kik-kik, their bells ringing. Merlyn looked out of his eyes once more.
‘It was clever of you,’ he said slowly, ‘to win the battle.’
Arthur had been taught that he ought to be modest, and he was too simple to notice that the vulture was going to pounce.
‘Oh well. It was luck.’
‘Very clever,’ repeated Merlyn. ‘How many of your kerns were killed?’
‘I don’t remember.’
‘No.’
‘Kay said —’
Arthur the King stopped in the middle of the sentence, and looked at him.
‘Well,’ he said. ‘It was not fun, then. I had not thought.’
‘The tally was more than seven hundred. They were all kerns, of course. None of the knights were injured, except the one who broke his leg falling off the horse.’
‘I was forgetting,’ Merlyn added, ‘that you had some really nasty bruises.’
Arthur glared at his finger-nails.
‘I hate you when you are a prig.’
Merlyn was charmed.
‘That’s the spirit,’ he said, putting his arm through the King’s and smiling cheefully. ‘That’s more like it. Stand up for yourself, that’s the ticket. Asking advice is the fatal thing. Besides, I won’t be here to advise you fairly soon.’
‘What is this you keep talking about, about not being here, and the tumulus and so on?’
‘It is nothing. I am due to fall in love with a girl called Nimue in a short time, and then she learns my spells and locks me up in a cave for several centuries. It is one of those things which are going to happen.’
‘But, Merlyn, how horrible! To be stuck in a cave for centuries like a toad in a hole! We must do something about it.’
‘Nonsense,’said the magician. ‘What was I talking about?’
‘About this maiden...’
‘I was talking about advice, and how you must never take it. Well, I am going to give you some now. I advise you to think about battles, and about your realm of Granmarye, and about the sort of things a king has to do. Will you do that?’
‘I will. Of course I will. But about this girl who learns your spells...’
‘You see, it is a question of the people, as well as of the kings. When you said about the battle being a lovely one, you were thinking like your father. I want you to think like yourself, so that you will be a credit to all this education I have been giving you — afterwards, when I am only an old man locked up in a hole.’
‘Merlyn!’
‘There, there! I was playing for sympathy. Never mind. I said it for effect. As a matter of fact, it will be charming to have a rest for a few hundred years, and, as for Nimue, I am looking backward to her a good deal. No, no, the important thing is this thinking-for-yourself business and the matter of battles. Have you ever thought seriously about the state of your country, for instance, or are you going to go on all your life being like Uther Pendragon? After all, you are the King of the place.’
‘I have not thought very much.’
‘No. Then let me do some thinking with you. Suppose we think about your Gaelic friend, Sir Bruce Sans Pitié.’
‘That fellow!’
‘Exactly. And why do you say it like that?’
‘He is a swine. He goes about murdering maidens — and, as soon as a real knight turns up to rescue them, he gallops off for all he is worth. He breeds special fast horses so that nobody can catch him, and he stabs people in the back. He’s a marauder. I would kill him at once if I could catch him.’
‘Well,’ she Merlyn, ‘I don’t think he is very different from the others. What is all this chivalry, anyway? It simply means being rich enough to have a castle and a suit of armour, and then, when you have them, you make the Saxon people do what you like. The only risk you run is of getting a few bruises if you happen to come across another knight. Look at that tilt you saw between Pellinore and Grunmore, when you were small. It is this armour that does it. All the barons can slice the poor people about as much as they want, and it is a day’s work to hurt each other and the result is that the country is devastated. Might is Right, that’s the motto. Bruce Sans Pitié is only an example of the general situation. Look at Lord and Nentres and Uriens and all that Gaelic crew, fighting against you for the Kingdom. Pulling swords out of stones is not a legal proof of paternity, I admit, but the kings of the Old Ones are not fighting you about that...
...This is their chance to pay off racial scores, and to have some blood-letting as sport, and to make a bit of money in ransoms. Their tubulence does not cost them anything themselves because they are dressed in armour — and you seem to enjoy it too. But look at the country. Look at the barns burned, and dead men’s legs sticking out of ponds, and horses with swelled bellies by the roadside, and mills falling down, and money buried, and nobody daring to walk abroad with gold or ornaments on their clothes. That is chivalry nowadays. That is the Uther Pendragon touch. And then you talk about a battle being fun.’
‘I was thinking of myself.’
‘I know.’
‘I ought to have thought of the people who had no armour.’
‘Quite.’
‘Might isn’t Right, is it Merlyn?’
shereads
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Re: I found it online
One of my favorite books, snp.
Before I leave for the office, having lost sleep over this last night, there's one more thing I'm going to clarify for those who care:
I don't doubt that there are people who read this thread, and without having opened the "Faces" thread, came away thinking I had posted the pictures of dead soldiers and made a political comment. I didn't. I posted a link so that people had the option of honoring the fallen in their own way, by looking or not.
People who know me will know that it's rare for me to fail to acknoledge an apology and to reply in kind, to make peace. To reject a sincere apology is one of the worst insults; an even worse one is to couch an apology in self-justifying language. "I'm sorry, but you were wrong" has the uniquely hollow ring of "I'm sorry this backfired, even just a little; I'm sorry I've had to share a fraction of the public scorn that I meant to focus on someone else when I posted this thread."
If I had pasted pictures of fallen soldiers into my post at "Faces," I could understand the reaction. I would apologize.
If I believed that the sight of an unopened link and the few words of mine that accompanied it, was so upsetting that several people were in tears, I'd apologize.
I'd be flattered, too, because that would mean that I'm one powerful communicator.
If I had called someone a coward or a "Bush basher" or a "Gore gouger," I'd be guilty of name calling, and unless it was meant in fun, I'd apologize.
I did not post pictures of dead soldiers.
I did not single out anyone to be stoned in the town square.
I didn't crawl away with my tail between my legs when I was singled out, as I was evidently expected to; nor did I believe for a moment that not using my name was an attempt to protect me from being hurt by this.
I didn't give in to my first impulse, which was to post a false apology; as much as I value the good will of most people in this forum, it would have been disingenuous to apologize without meaning it. And worse than disingenuous to apologize and continue to claim I was in the right. I may not have been right in everyone's eyes, but I wasn't wrong. Posting a link with a comment is simply an offer to share something with those of like mind. Most people complaining here have said they didn't look. That's a shame, because regardless of your motives for looking at the list of our fallen soldiers, it's their last time to have their faces seen in the light of day. It's a way to honor them, whether you think we were wrong or right to risk their lives. I'd do the same thing again, and the same people would still refuse to look and the same ones would look, and PM to say how moved they were by this boy's goofy grin, or this girl's beautiful smile.
To have chosen any of them to be pasted into my thread would have carried the implicit message that he or she was on my side politically, and I would never have done something like that. I needed to say that here for those of you who assumed that's what happened.
For those who are offended by the sight of the unopened link, and my description of it, and my feelings about it, and the fact that someone who thinks the war is wrong is the one who shared it here, I wish I could apologize but I can't, because I'd be lying to make myself look better in your eyes. Most of you wouldn't fall for it.
Susan
One of my favorite books, snp.
Before I leave for the office, having lost sleep over this last night, there's one more thing I'm going to clarify for those who care:
I don't doubt that there are people who read this thread, and without having opened the "Faces" thread, came away thinking I had posted the pictures of dead soldiers and made a political comment. I didn't. I posted a link so that people had the option of honoring the fallen in their own way, by looking or not.
People who know me will know that it's rare for me to fail to acknoledge an apology and to reply in kind, to make peace. To reject a sincere apology is one of the worst insults; an even worse one is to couch an apology in self-justifying language. "I'm sorry, but you were wrong" has the uniquely hollow ring of "I'm sorry this backfired, even just a little; I'm sorry I've had to share a fraction of the public scorn that I meant to focus on someone else when I posted this thread."
If I had pasted pictures of fallen soldiers into my post at "Faces," I could understand the reaction. I would apologize.
If I believed that the sight of an unopened link and the few words of mine that accompanied it, was so upsetting that several people were in tears, I'd apologize.
I'd be flattered, too, because that would mean that I'm one powerful communicator.
If I had called someone a coward or a "Bush basher" or a "Gore gouger," I'd be guilty of name calling, and unless it was meant in fun, I'd apologize.
I did not post pictures of dead soldiers.
I did not single out anyone to be stoned in the town square.
I didn't crawl away with my tail between my legs when I was singled out, as I was evidently expected to; nor did I believe for a moment that not using my name was an attempt to protect me from being hurt by this.
I didn't give in to my first impulse, which was to post a false apology; as much as I value the good will of most people in this forum, it would have been disingenuous to apologize without meaning it. And worse than disingenuous to apologize and continue to claim I was in the right. I may not have been right in everyone's eyes, but I wasn't wrong. Posting a link with a comment is simply an offer to share something with those of like mind. Most people complaining here have said they didn't look. That's a shame, because regardless of your motives for looking at the list of our fallen soldiers, it's their last time to have their faces seen in the light of day. It's a way to honor them, whether you think we were wrong or right to risk their lives. I'd do the same thing again, and the same people would still refuse to look and the same ones would look, and PM to say how moved they were by this boy's goofy grin, or this girl's beautiful smile.
To have chosen any of them to be pasted into my thread would have carried the implicit message that he or she was on my side politically, and I would never have done something like that. I needed to say that here for those of you who assumed that's what happened.
For those who are offended by the sight of the unopened link, and my description of it, and my feelings about it, and the fact that someone who thinks the war is wrong is the one who shared it here, I wish I could apologize but I can't, because I'd be lying to make myself look better in your eyes. Most of you wouldn't fall for it.
Susan
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sweetnpetite
Intellectual snob
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2003
- Posts
- 9,135
shereads,
you have the respect of many here.
Myself included.
Sweet.
you have the respect of many here.
Myself included.
Sweet.
dr_mabeuse
seduce the mind
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2002
- Posts
- 11,528
We're not the only ones with divided opinionds. From Yahoo News:
CNN) -- The decision of Sinclair Broadcast Group, which ordered its seven ABC stations not to broadcast Friday's "Nightline," has received criticism from U.S. Sen. John McCain (R-Arizona).
Friday's show will air the names and photographs of the more than 500 U.S. troops killed in the Iraq war.
"Your decision to deny your viewers an opportunity to be reminded of war's terrible costs, in all their heartbreaking detail, is a gross disservice to the public, and to the men and women of the United States Armed Forces," McCain, a Vietnam veteran, wrote in a letter to David Smith, president and CEO of Sinclair Broadcast Group. "It is, in short, sir, unpatriotic. I hope it meets with the public opprobrium it most certainly deserves."
In a statement online, the Sinclair group said the "Nightline" program "appears to be motivated by a political agenda designed to undermine the efforts of the United States in Iraq."
Sinclair's decision, announced Thursday, drew angry calls from the public and a sharp response from ABC News.
"We respectfully disagree with Sinclair's decision to pre-empt 'Nightline's' tribute to America's fallen soldiers," ABC News said in a statement. "The 'Nightline' broadcast is an expression of respect which simply seeks to honor those who have laid down their lives for this country."
Some of the stations have received many calls and e-mails in response to Sinclair's decision.
"I have not gotten one positive response," said an assignment desk editor at WSYX, the ABC station in Columbus, Ohio.
WEAR in Pensacola, Florida, has been inundated with phone calls and e-mails. A man who answered the phone in the station's newsroom said people mostly wanted to know why the decision was made.
On the Web site for WLOS in Asheville, North Carolina, the station invited viewers to e-mail the station and said it would forward the messages to Sinclair.
The company's other ABC stations are in St. Louis, Missouri; Charleston, West Virginia; Winston-Salem, North Carolina; and Springfield, Massachusetts.
The show, titled "The Fallen," will air at 11:35 p.m. Friday. In it, newsman Ted Koppel will read the names of the U.S. troops killed in action while their pictures are shown to viewers.
As of Thursday, 533 U.S. troops have been killed in action in the Iraq war; another 204 troops have died from nonhostile incidents.
Sinclair general counsel Barry Faber confirmed the company told its ABC affiliates not to air Friday's "Nightline."
"We find it to be contrary to public interest," he said.
ABC said that on the first anniversary of the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, it aired the names and pictures of all those who died on that day.
"ABC News will continue to report on all facets of the war in Iraq and the war on terrorism in a manner consistent with the standards which ABC News has set for decades," it said.
Sinclair's statement said ABC is politicizing the war.
"Mr. Koppel and 'Nightline' are hiding behind this so-called tribute in an effort to highlight only one aspect of the war effort and in doing so to influence public opinion against the military action in Iraq," the statement said.
According to campaign finance records, four of Sinclair's top executives each have given the maximum campaign contribution of $2,000 to the Bush-Cheney re-election campaign.
The executives have not given any donations to the campaign of Sen. John Kerry, the presumptive Democratic nominee, the records showed.
Sinclair owns and operates, programs, or provides sales services to 62 stations in 39 markets, according to its Web site.
In addition its ABC outlets, Sinclair's television group includes 20 Fox, 19 WB, six UPN, three CBS and four NBC affiliates, and two independent stations.
It reaches approximately 24 percent of all U.S. television households, according to the Web site.
ABC News will show the tribute live on its large television screen in New York's Times Square.
CNN) -- The decision of Sinclair Broadcast Group, which ordered its seven ABC stations not to broadcast Friday's "Nightline," has received criticism from U.S. Sen. John McCain (R-Arizona).
Friday's show will air the names and photographs of the more than 500 U.S. troops killed in the Iraq war.
"Your decision to deny your viewers an opportunity to be reminded of war's terrible costs, in all their heartbreaking detail, is a gross disservice to the public, and to the men and women of the United States Armed Forces," McCain, a Vietnam veteran, wrote in a letter to David Smith, president and CEO of Sinclair Broadcast Group. "It is, in short, sir, unpatriotic. I hope it meets with the public opprobrium it most certainly deserves."
In a statement online, the Sinclair group said the "Nightline" program "appears to be motivated by a political agenda designed to undermine the efforts of the United States in Iraq."
Sinclair's decision, announced Thursday, drew angry calls from the public and a sharp response from ABC News.
"We respectfully disagree with Sinclair's decision to pre-empt 'Nightline's' tribute to America's fallen soldiers," ABC News said in a statement. "The 'Nightline' broadcast is an expression of respect which simply seeks to honor those who have laid down their lives for this country."
Some of the stations have received many calls and e-mails in response to Sinclair's decision.
"I have not gotten one positive response," said an assignment desk editor at WSYX, the ABC station in Columbus, Ohio.
WEAR in Pensacola, Florida, has been inundated with phone calls and e-mails. A man who answered the phone in the station's newsroom said people mostly wanted to know why the decision was made.
On the Web site for WLOS in Asheville, North Carolina, the station invited viewers to e-mail the station and said it would forward the messages to Sinclair.
The company's other ABC stations are in St. Louis, Missouri; Charleston, West Virginia; Winston-Salem, North Carolina; and Springfield, Massachusetts.
The show, titled "The Fallen," will air at 11:35 p.m. Friday. In it, newsman Ted Koppel will read the names of the U.S. troops killed in action while their pictures are shown to viewers.
As of Thursday, 533 U.S. troops have been killed in action in the Iraq war; another 204 troops have died from nonhostile incidents.
Sinclair general counsel Barry Faber confirmed the company told its ABC affiliates not to air Friday's "Nightline."
"We find it to be contrary to public interest," he said.
ABC said that on the first anniversary of the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, it aired the names and pictures of all those who died on that day.
"ABC News will continue to report on all facets of the war in Iraq and the war on terrorism in a manner consistent with the standards which ABC News has set for decades," it said.
Sinclair's statement said ABC is politicizing the war.
"Mr. Koppel and 'Nightline' are hiding behind this so-called tribute in an effort to highlight only one aspect of the war effort and in doing so to influence public opinion against the military action in Iraq," the statement said.
According to campaign finance records, four of Sinclair's top executives each have given the maximum campaign contribution of $2,000 to the Bush-Cheney re-election campaign.
The executives have not given any donations to the campaign of Sen. John Kerry, the presumptive Democratic nominee, the records showed.
Sinclair owns and operates, programs, or provides sales services to 62 stations in 39 markets, according to its Web site.
In addition its ABC outlets, Sinclair's television group includes 20 Fox, 19 WB, six UPN, three CBS and four NBC affiliates, and two independent stations.
It reaches approximately 24 percent of all U.S. television households, according to the Web site.
ABC News will show the tribute live on its large television screen in New York's Times Square.
ABSTRUSE
Cirque du Freak
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2003
- Posts
- 50,094
This is a story from my hometown, another face and name to add to a growing list.
Thursday, April 29, 5:40 p.m.
By Jon Meyer
Fallen Soldier's Family Speaks Out Against War
The mother of a soldier killed in Iraq this week said her son died in an unjust war. In fact, she and her other children protested the war last year. Family in Luzerne County call Sergeant Sherwood Baker of Plymouth a man proud to serve his country and fight with the National Guard. His family in Philadelphia, including his mother, has a different view.
Hugs, tears and lots of sadness fill Celeste Zappala's home in Philadelphia; a home with signs on the window and on the lawn calling for peace. Sergeant Baker grew up in Philadelphia before moving to Luzerne County. His mom said her son was raised to be against war.
"We are people of peace and think the road to peace is peace," said Zappala. She said her son joined the National Guard to supplement his income as a social worker and disc jockey. "He went because he is a committed person and he made a promise. He loved the people in his platoon and was going to bring them all home," his mother said.
"He would never give us a straight answer but my favorite photo of him was one just before he left where he was giving a peace sign. That made us believe he was against the war but couldn't say because he was in the military," said his brother Raphael Zappala.
No matter their feelings on the war, family members in Philadelphia are feeling great pain and loss. "He took care of people. He helped people. He would do anything he could for people with his whole heart," his mother said.
Sergeant Sherwood Baker's remains were returned to the U.S. Wednesday night. Funeral arrangements have not been made but several memorial services are being planned in Luzerne County. They will pay tribute to Baker's sacrifice and honor him as a true patriot.
Thursday, April 29, 5:40 p.m.
By Jon Meyer
Fallen Soldier's Family Speaks Out Against War
The mother of a soldier killed in Iraq this week said her son died in an unjust war. In fact, she and her other children protested the war last year. Family in Luzerne County call Sergeant Sherwood Baker of Plymouth a man proud to serve his country and fight with the National Guard. His family in Philadelphia, including his mother, has a different view.
Hugs, tears and lots of sadness fill Celeste Zappala's home in Philadelphia; a home with signs on the window and on the lawn calling for peace. Sergeant Baker grew up in Philadelphia before moving to Luzerne County. His mom said her son was raised to be against war.
"We are people of peace and think the road to peace is peace," said Zappala. She said her son joined the National Guard to supplement his income as a social worker and disc jockey. "He went because he is a committed person and he made a promise. He loved the people in his platoon and was going to bring them all home," his mother said.
"He would never give us a straight answer but my favorite photo of him was one just before he left where he was giving a peace sign. That made us believe he was against the war but couldn't say because he was in the military," said his brother Raphael Zappala.
No matter their feelings on the war, family members in Philadelphia are feeling great pain and loss. "He took care of people. He helped people. He would do anything he could for people with his whole heart," his mother said.
Sergeant Sherwood Baker's remains were returned to the U.S. Wednesday night. Funeral arrangements have not been made but several memorial services are being planned in Luzerne County. They will pay tribute to Baker's sacrifice and honor him as a true patriot.
shereads
Sloganless
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2003
- Posts
- 19,242
"Your decision to deny your viewers an opportunity to be reminded of war's terrible costs, in all their heartbreaking detail, is a gross disservice to the public, and to the men and women of the United States Armed Forces," McCain, a Vietnam veteran, wrote in a letter to David Smith, president and CEO of Sinclair Broadcast Group. "It is, in short, sir, unpatriotic. I hope it meets with the public opprobrium it most certainly deserves."
Amen.
Amen.
sweetnpetite
Intellectual snob
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2003
- Posts
- 9,135
I second that. (see what I wrote in the Faces thread about government, duty, citizenship, ect)
shereads said:
