This could cause some confusion

[Bramblethorn]

Tor Macmillan have announced a new romance imprint: https://read.macmillan.com/torforge/bramble

"From science fiction and fantasy to contemporary and family saga, romance belongs in every genre and every genre belongs in Bramble. Whether the last page holds happily ever after, to be continued, or an ending that isn’t so simple, Bramble books will take you on an extraordinary journey of love. With spice levels to suit all readers, with familiar tropes and uncharted territory, Bramble books will explore a love that's tangled up, covered in thorns, and oh so sweet."

Kind of wondering whether I ought to drop somebody at Tor a line. I have absolutely no problem with them using that name (I doubt I have any legal or ethical right to claim exclusive ownership of something as basic as "Bramble") but I'd also like not to get a cease-and-desist if their lawyers feel differently. Thoughts?

 

[Rustyoznail]

Yeah, conversely do you want to draw attention to yourself? You have the advantage of being Bramblethorn for ten years

If Ye (Kanye West) goes after a burger bar in Melbourne, plus a few other frivolous cases, it could happen.

 

[ElectricBlue]

As Rusty says, with a ten year precedence as Bramblethorn, fuck 'em. Or offer your content to them, one never knows!

 

[Handley_Page]

I think it could be worthwhile giving them a 'heads-up', particularly indicating that you can show how long you've been you.

 

[stickygirl]

Bramble ≠ Bramblethorn ? Unless you use the shorter moniker elsewhere.

 

[SimonDoom]

The risk of getting a cease and desist letter is, I think, remote. Tor Publishing Group is based in the US and would be guided by US Trademark law, under which prior use (not registration) is the crucial element for establishing ownership. You could easily prove that through Literotica and archives.org. Plus, Bramble and Bramblethorn aren't the same. Just stay away from merchandise and you'll probably be OK.

I'd suggest lying low rather than contacting them. You'll just invite unwanted attention and possibly invite them to take defensive action.

 

[Comshaw]

The risk of getting a cease and desist letter is, I think, remote. Tor Publishing Group is based in the US and would be guided by US Trademark law, under which prior use (not registration) is the crucial element for establishing ownership. You could easily prove that through Literotica and archives.org. Plus, Bramble and Bramblethorn aren't the same. Just stay away from merchandise and you'll probably be OK.

I'd suggest lying low rather than contacting them. You'll just invite unwanted attention and possibly invite them to take defensive action.

I live at the foot of the Olympic mountains. Consequently, a few of the businesses around here have "Olympic" in their name. A few years before the 2010 Olympic Winter Games The international Olympic committee sent every small businesses around here a crease and desist letters for using "Olympic" or some derivative in their names. It took a few years and one or two court cases before it was settled (in favor of the locals). Even though the locals won, no one wants to feel like a mouse in a room full of elephants.

I operate by the old saying, "An once of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

Comshaw

 

[SimonDoom]

I live at the foot of the Olympic mountains. Consequently, a few of the businesses around here have "Olympic" in their name. A few years before the 2010 Olympic Winter Games The international Olympic committee sent every small businesses around here a crease and desist letters for using "Olympic" or some derivative in their names. It took a few years and one or two court cases before it was settled (in favor of the locals). Even though the locals won, no one wants to feel like a mouse in a room full of elephants.

I operate by the old saying, "An once of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

Comshaw

The term "Olympic" is a unique exception to the general rules regarding trademark/name confusion, because there are special laws in place to protect the Olympics (Title 36 of the US Code, section 380). I've always thought it's somewhat bogus, but that's the way it is. So you cannot draw generalizations from the claims made by the Olympic committee regarding other trademarks because they enjoy protections others don't.

Like, for instance, if you pay attention to Wheaties boxes featuring Olympic athletes, they won't even mention the fact that the athletes won Olympic medals. They'll refer to something like "international competitions." It's weird, but that's the way it is.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Tor Macmillan have announced a new romance imprint: https://read.macmillan.com/torforge/bramble

"From science fiction and fantasy to contemporary and family saga, romance belongs in every genre and every genre belongs in Bramble. Whether the last page holds happily ever after, to be continued, or an ending that isn’t so simple, Bramble books will take you on an extraordinary journey of love. With spice levels to suit all readers, with familiar tropes and uncharted territory, Bramble books will explore a love that's tangled up, covered in thorns, and oh so sweet."

Kind of wondering whether I ought to drop somebody at Tor a line. I have absolutely no problem with them using that name (I doubt I have any legal or ethical right to claim exclusive ownership of something as basic as "Bramble") but I'd also like not to get a cease-and-desist if their lawyers feel differently. Thoughts?

Among other things, a bramble is a kind of shrub. It's also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bramble_(disambiguation)

I assume with the "thorn," you based your name on the plant. In any case, Macmillan's use of it was obviously a coincidence. And I can't see how you have damages or ill-effects on your writing here or anywhere else.

 

[KeithD]

Bramble ≠ Bramblethorn ? Unless you use the shorter moniker elsewhere.

This.

 

[gunhilltrain]

The term "Olympic" is a unique exception to the general rules regarding trademark/name confusion, because there are special laws in place to protect the Olympics (Title 36 of the US Code, section 380). I've always thought it's somewhat bogus, but that's the way it is. So you cannot draw generalizations from the claims made by the Olympic committee regarding other trademarks because they enjoy protections others don't.

Like, for instance, if you pay attention to Wheaties boxes featuring Olympic athletes, they won't even mention the fact that the athletes won Olympic medals. They'll refer to something like "international competitions." It's weird, but that's the way it is.

Yet the word "Olympic" has gotten loose a number of times, sometimes quite recently. Like there are several restaurants in different places that use it.

https://www.nyolympicdiner.com/

http://www.olympic-diner.com/

It seems that the Olympic committee doesn't have the time or inclination to go after every diner on Long Island, or Putnam County, or elsewhere.

 

[gunhilltrain]

This.

Even if it was "Bramblethorn," why would they care (they don't have to) about somebody writing for free on a relatively obscure website? (Sorry, no offense intended. That fact applies to all of us.)

 

[Comshaw]

The term "Olympic" is a unique exception to the general rules regarding trademark/name confusion, because there are special laws in place to protect the Olympics (Title 36 of the US Code, section 380). I've always thought it's somewhat bogus, but that's the way it is. So you cannot draw generalizations from the claims made by the Olympic (committee regarding other trademarks because they enjoy protections others don't.

Like, for instance, if you pay attention to Wheaties boxes featuring Olympic athletes, they won't even mention the fact that the athletes won Olympic medals. They'll refer to something like "international competitions." It's weird, but that's the way it is.

Actually, this part of Title 36 section 380 supports my point.

Without the consent of the Corporation, any person who uses for the purpose of trade, to induce the sale of any goods or services, or to promote any theatrical exhibition, athletic performance, or competition—
(4) the words “Olympic”, “Olympiad”, “Citius Altius Fortius”, or any combination or simulation thereof tending to cause confusion, to cause mistake, to deceive, or to falsely suggest a connection with the Corporation or any Olympic activity;

The Olympic committee tried to force the businesses here to stop using the name, even though it was in no way connected to, inspired by the Olympics, nor used to confuse anyone about its usage. It was taken to court by a coalition of local businesses and they won after expending much time and money. It was done by a coalition because no one business could afford to do it alone. Which was my point.

A great example is Donald Trump. Many times during his business dealings with contractors he (or a representative of the company) would call a contractor in after the job was done. The corporation would tell them they were only going to get paid a percentage of what was agreed upon. It didn't matter if the contractor was in the right, they didn't have enough resources to fight a corporation that large, so they would settle for what they could get.

The same goes for a trademarked, or federally protected (such as "Olympic") name. Someone can be in the right, but it is still a mouse fighting an elephant. Most times it just isn't worth it. Preventing being in such a position is worth the effort. Much better than expending all you have on a cure.

Comshaw

 

[gunhilltrain]

Yeah, conversely do you want to draw attention to yourself? You have the advantage of being Bramblethorn for ten years

If Ye (Kanye West) goes after a burger bar in Melbourne, plus a few other frivolous cases, it could happen.

Kanye West doesn't seem to be doing too well with that.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02...quiet-lawsuit-melbourne-burger-shop/101958288

If it was "Kayne West Burgers" he would have had a chance. "College Dropout?" I'm guessing that he was deluding himself.

 

[Comshaw]

Yet the word "Olympic" has gotten loose a number of times, sometimes quite recently. Like there are several restaurants in different places that use it.

https://www.nyolympicdiner.com/

http://www.olympic-diner.com/

It seems that the Olympic committee doesn't have the time or inclination to go after every diner on Long Island, or Putnam County, or elsewhere.

I think the reason they did here is that the Winter Olympics were held close to here and they wanted to make sure no one confused the Olympic Mountains, or the businesses named for them, with the Olympic Winter games. That's akin to Jones soda building a facility in a neighborhood with a bunch of families named Jones and demanding all of them change their names or cease using it because Jones is a registered trademark name.

Comshaw

 

[Bramblethorn]

Among other things, a bramble is a kind of shrub. It's also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bramble_(disambiguation)

I assume with the "thorn," you based your name on the plant.

Something like that. (It was originally a shared name for a collaboration, but my collaborator dropped out and I kept it.) I don't recall which of us first hit on "Bramble" and who added "thorn" to it, but I expect we were both thinking of the plant, the combination of delicious berries and spikes.

I do know we weren't the first "Bramblethorn" - a few years after I started using it, I searched and discovered somebody else had been using it in a different corner of the internet. I don't think that's the sort of thing one person can/should claim exclusive ownership of. I think there's also a BDSM artist named "Thorn" out there.

In any case, Macmillan's use of it was obviously a coincidence. And I can't see how you have damages or ill-effects on your writing here or anywhere else.

I agree 100%. If it was a publisher whose values were seriously in conflict with mine, I might be concerned about being confused with them, but from what I know of Tor our tastes are pretty similar. I'd just be a bit more comfortable if I knew they felt the same way about me. My understanding is that in theory prior use is what counts, but I'd also be keen not to have to argue the point with a large publisher's legal department.

Even if it was "Bramblethorn," why would they care (they don't have to) about somebody writing for free on a relatively obscure website? (Sorry, no offense intended. That fact applies to all of us.)

This isn't the only place where I publish my stories, and I do sell some of them (very occasionally) on Smashwords, so there is a commercial component there however small.

Bramble ≠ Bramblethorn ? Unless you use the shorter moniker elsewhere.

Mostly I'm either "Bramblethorn" or "B. Thorn", but I do abbreviate it to "Bramble" when I'm being informal.

 

[stickygirl]

I may have referred to you as Bramblebum before. 'bum being a suffix that confers affection dowt our way