They do not reflect the values of America
- Thread starter WriterDom
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american values
i think that one of the foundations of america
is that we try to embrace the values of ALL people
to make room for, and have tolerance, for those
different from us. so to define a value as
american is an oxymoron.
and too often our leaders get into their own
fundamentalist view of values, and behave
little differently from those we condemn
enough said, for now
i think that one of the foundations of america
is that we try to embrace the values of ALL people
to make room for, and have tolerance, for those
different from us. so to define a value as
american is an oxymoron.
and too often our leaders get into their own
fundamentalist view of values, and behave
little differently from those we condemn
enough said, for now
SINthysist
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Self-Determination.
Self-Education and curiosity.
A reliance on one's abilities first and foremost.
The love of tinkering.
A love of the land and growing things.
Self-belief, the willingness to struggle.
Tolerance of other's beliefs, but not at the cost of your own.
Right of Franchise (long since stolen).
Family, Community, Church come before Government.
And my biggest peeve:
We used to believe in free speech, but that has turned into the right to riot, degrade society, and censor others.
From Voltairian principles, we have gotten away from, I will fight to the death for your right to say that, and have instead adopted the new position: I do not like what you are saying, so I will find a small group of people who feel similarly and we will shout and riot until you no longer have the right to say that. We will do it for the benefit of the children.
The rest of the world seems to believe that government is the great provider or that "God" is the great provider or that they'll think about the question manana.
IMHO
Self-Education and curiosity.
A reliance on one's abilities first and foremost.
The love of tinkering.
A love of the land and growing things.
Self-belief, the willingness to struggle.
Tolerance of other's beliefs, but not at the cost of your own.
Right of Franchise (long since stolen).
Family, Community, Church come before Government.
And my biggest peeve:
We used to believe in free speech, but that has turned into the right to riot, degrade society, and censor others.
From Voltairian principles, we have gotten away from, I will fight to the death for your right to say that, and have instead adopted the new position: I do not like what you are saying, so I will find a small group of people who feel similarly and we will shout and riot until you no longer have the right to say that. We will do it for the benefit of the children.
The rest of the world seems to believe that government is the great provider or that "God" is the great provider or that they'll think about the question manana.
IMHO
MissVictoria
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Not having lived in most of the countries of the rest of the world, and not having lived as anyone other than myself, I don't feel as if I'm qualified to even begin to attempt to answer this question.
But I will try, with two simple things I believe the majority of Americans value. Diversity and Materialism.
But I will try, with two simple things I believe the majority of Americans value. Diversity and Materialism.
Pokerman
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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Everything stems from that sentence. Freedom of speech, religion, press, the whole bill of rights and much of the constitution can be traced back to that sentence.
" how do they differ from the rest of the world?"
ask women who lived under the Taliban. People who live in countries where you are guilty until proven innocent. Where criticizing the government will land you in jail, or worse, a shallow grave....
Everything stems from that sentence. Freedom of speech, religion, press, the whole bill of rights and much of the constitution can be traced back to that sentence.
" how do they differ from the rest of the world?"
ask women who lived under the Taliban. People who live in countries where you are guilty until proven innocent. Where criticizing the government will land you in jail, or worse, a shallow grave....
SINthysist
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MissVictoria, have you been asked if you have a secret?
I hope you are not saying materialism like it's a bad thing...
I have great diversity in materialism, art, land, stocks, and toddler's toys...
I hope you are not saying materialism like it's a bad thing...
I have great diversity in materialism, art, land, stocks, and toddler's toys...
And speaking of self education, here's some food for thought...
The U.S. is NOT America. Didn't any of the people who use this generic term learn that there are THREE Americas?
Let's see, there's NORTH America - All of the U.S., Canada & Mexico.
Central America - Guatemala, Belize, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica & Panama.
South America - Argentina, Brazil, Bolivia, Chile, Columbia, Ecuador, French Guiana, Guyana, Paraguay, Peru, Suriname, Uraguay & Venezuela.
It DOES offend people that live in ALL those countries, some more than others, when they hear that term. Now why don't you think about that the next time you call the U.S. such a generic term like America.
*RANT OVER*
The U.S. is NOT America. Didn't any of the people who use this generic term learn that there are THREE Americas?
Let's see, there's NORTH America - All of the U.S., Canada & Mexico.
Central America - Guatemala, Belize, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica & Panama.
South America - Argentina, Brazil, Bolivia, Chile, Columbia, Ecuador, French Guiana, Guyana, Paraguay, Peru, Suriname, Uraguay & Venezuela.
It DOES offend people that live in ALL those countries, some more than others, when they hear that term. Now why don't you think about that the next time you call the U.S. such a generic term like America.
*RANT OVER*
SINthysist
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Then apply all this to the greatest country in the world, the United States. If I can get into the mind of the author of the initial quote, that is what it is all about...
Calamity Jane
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lobito said:
So let's see...
Diversity, Materialism, and Ego Centrism... does that about sum it up?
I can't tell you what 'American' (as in the USA) values are. I know what mine are, and I'm sure others wouldn't think they were so valuable, or even moral/ethical. Maybe that's the point though. No one gets to force their values onto anyone else in any truly significant way.
SINthysist
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Yes, people do get to force thier values on you here. Happens all the time. Prayer has been removed from schools. Homosexuals and Lesbians can be "married." You have to wear a seatbelt. Hollywood forces its values on the public. The liberal educational structure from the colleges down forces its values on children. Its sad, but goes to what I was talking about earlier and even political correctness.
How smaller and smaller groups wish to substitute thier values for American values.
How smaller and smaller groups wish to substitute thier values for American values.
SINthysist
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Yes, Mel Gibson in Braveheart...
You can only be forced to value something the same as someone else, IF you allow yourself to be weak enough to allow it.
There's a BIG difference between Hollywood, and LAWS. Safety belts actually do save lives in most cases, rarely has something from Hollywood done that.
Just because you are free'r in the U.S., doesn't make this the greatest country in the world. YOUR statement is that it is, MY opinion is that it's not. By saying that it is, are you not trying to convince others that it IS the greatest country in the world? People are most likely going to be loyal to the country that they are from, so maybe where they are from IS the greatest country in the world to THEM.
There's a BIG difference between Hollywood, and LAWS. Safety belts actually do save lives in most cases, rarely has something from Hollywood done that.
Just because you are free'r in the U.S., doesn't make this the greatest country in the world. YOUR statement is that it is, MY opinion is that it's not. By saying that it is, are you not trying to convince others that it IS the greatest country in the world? People are most likely going to be loyal to the country that they are from, so maybe where they are from IS the greatest country in the world to THEM.
MissVictoria
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SINthysist, suprisingly they havent asked me that yet on lit.
However, when I was in highschool it was sort of my catch phrase. "SHHHHHHH! Its Victoria's secret!"
I recall lining up for a free throw once in a basketball game and having a group of kids do that while I was trying to make a shot.
However, when I was in highschool it was sort of my catch phrase. "SHHHHHHH! Its Victoria's secret!"
I recall lining up for a free throw once in a basketball game and having a group of kids do that while I was trying to make a shot.
SINthysist
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Well then
Our little gang is surely slipping...
Our little gang is surely slipping...
Calamity Jane
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SINthysist said:
Don't you mean for YOUR values?
I said "in a truly significant way". Nothing that you mentioned is life altering.
Prayer has not been removed from schools. Required, organized prayer has. You can't tell me that believers have stopped praying in school.
I don't HAVE to wear a seatbelt, I just need to be grown up enough to face the consequences if I don't.
How does gay marriage affect you, personally, in a significant way?
You are not forced to send your children to any specific school. So how does the 'liberal educational structure' affect you unless you choose to let it?
SINthysist
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You're debating what? You said, "No one gets to force their values onto anyone else in any truly significant way."
I think these are significant. What do they matter to me personally, or are they my values? Little and no, but they were the normative values were they not? They are merely examples of an America that is increasingly about imposing a value system, a pervasive, intrusive value system which was articulated in the 60's. It's shorthand motto was Drugs, Sex, and Rock and Roll.
What that stood for was a life of no consequences, no boundries, no moralization, no innapropriate behavior. A government enforced code with the implication of abandoning the security of family, community, and church for the promise of governmental care. In short, we have been absolved of responsibility for our behavior. In return, we must behave in an approved manner to each and every specific minority or group that identifies itself as being special.
In short, in the New America, ahem, United States, you are no longer an individual with freedoms and rights, but a member of a group which must act in accordance with whatever is right based on past percieved injustices and slights. Just seems some of us are less comfortable with that than the values I listed previously.
I think these are significant. What do they matter to me personally, or are they my values? Little and no, but they were the normative values were they not? They are merely examples of an America that is increasingly about imposing a value system, a pervasive, intrusive value system which was articulated in the 60's. It's shorthand motto was Drugs, Sex, and Rock and Roll.
What that stood for was a life of no consequences, no boundries, no moralization, no innapropriate behavior. A government enforced code with the implication of abandoning the security of family, community, and church for the promise of governmental care. In short, we have been absolved of responsibility for our behavior. In return, we must behave in an approved manner to each and every specific minority or group that identifies itself as being special.
In short, in the New America, ahem, United States, you are no longer an individual with freedoms and rights, but a member of a group which must act in accordance with whatever is right based on past percieved injustices and slights. Just seems some of us are less comfortable with that than the values I listed previously.
G
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SINthysist said:
Sorry, but you do not have to do anything in the U.S. You, simply, pay the consequences when you do not obey the rules.
A big difference that quite few would die for attempting to obtain such the right.
I strongly disagree. Read some of the writings associated with the founding of this nation. Values uniquely American are freedom and individual rights. Springing from that is autonomy, self-determination.
No government in the history of mankind had ever been constructed within these constraints. Diversity in and of itself is not of any particular value; it is just a fact. The fact that our government is not permitted to dictate people's endeavors is of inestimable and indefinable value.
While I'm properly impressed with the geography lesson, I'd be equally impressed were you cognizant enough to also recognize that America is a commonly used synonym for the United States of America, aka the U. S. When all the multitude of demonstrators around the world clamor for the destruction of the Great Satan, i. e., America, do you ask which America, North, Central or South? I doubt it. You know precisely that they refer to the U. S.
I think SINthysist and Pokerman have a pretty clear perception of the greatness of America and its source and expressed it well.
Yeah, and the air bags these LAWS mandated have killed many people, too. So your point is? Some laws are valid and legitimate. Most are illegitimate and invasive in the sphere of autonomy and hence a violation of your right to freely choose the manner in which you live your life.
If being the only nation on earth that embraces the principles of freedom over slavery doesn't make this the greatest nation ever to exist in recorded history, then I'm appalled at the moral and ethical values and principles that you imply that you embrace and endorse. America is the ONLY nation that has ever put the rights and freedom of the individual above the authority of government.
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American Values
Although I frimly believe that American Values are held by each American and are therefore as individual and as numerous as the approxmately 300million Americans living today, perhaps there is one document that may help. It can be found in Washington DC and is the very foundation on which our government and to some extent our society has been and continues to be built. It begins with a simple statement:
"We the people of the United States of America, in order to form a more prefect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
Although I frimly believe that American Values are held by each American and are therefore as individual and as numerous as the approxmately 300million Americans living today, perhaps there is one document that may help. It can be found in Washington DC and is the very foundation on which our government and to some extent our society has been and continues to be built. It begins with a simple statement:
"We the people of the United States of America, in order to form a more prefect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
Oliver Clozoff
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I agree, BigDawg, that the Constitution is perhaps the best practical embodiment of American values, as its the document that guides the "nuts and bolts" of American government.
Still, the Constitution is simply a blueprint for government - it outlines government powers and just as importantly, restrictions on government power. I'd argue that the important "American Values" that the Constitution (and thus the nation) is founded on aren't explicitly outlined in the Constitution. They're found more clearly in The Declaration of Independence and writings of the Jefferson and other founding fathers.
If I had to summarize American values in one sentence, it would be this one:
Of course, this core value has never been realized and if one had to summarize all of American history in one sentence, one could say that American history has been a lengthy process of attempting to live up to the extraordinarily messy notion that "All men are created equal."
After all, at the time of the Declaration's writing, "all men" didn't really refer to all men, much less all people. The Civil War, the feminist movement, and the African-American and Native American civil rights movements were all efforts by Americans to to attempt to widen the sphere of equality - to make "all men" really mean all people.
This process is far from finished, of course. The debate over abortion can be seen as an attempt to draw the unborn into the Declaration's "all men". Homosexuals are currently fighting for the right for their unions to be recognized just as heterosexuals are. Some would argue "all people" isn't inclusive enough - radical animal rights activists seek protection for animals.
The irony of this central American value of "all men are created equal" is that it's patently untrue. All people aren't equal in any objective way (Jefferson knew this and science continues to demonstrate this fact more and more each day), but nevertheless it would seem to me that society works best when the most people are treated as if they're truly equal.
Thus spoke Ollie.
Still, the Constitution is simply a blueprint for government - it outlines government powers and just as importantly, restrictions on government power. I'd argue that the important "American Values" that the Constitution (and thus the nation) is founded on aren't explicitly outlined in the Constitution. They're found more clearly in The Declaration of Independence and writings of the Jefferson and other founding fathers.
If I had to summarize American values in one sentence, it would be this one:
Of course, this core value has never been realized and if one had to summarize all of American history in one sentence, one could say that American history has been a lengthy process of attempting to live up to the extraordinarily messy notion that "All men are created equal."
After all, at the time of the Declaration's writing, "all men" didn't really refer to all men, much less all people. The Civil War, the feminist movement, and the African-American and Native American civil rights movements were all efforts by Americans to to attempt to widen the sphere of equality - to make "all men" really mean all people.
This process is far from finished, of course. The debate over abortion can be seen as an attempt to draw the unborn into the Declaration's "all men". Homosexuals are currently fighting for the right for their unions to be recognized just as heterosexuals are. Some would argue "all people" isn't inclusive enough - radical animal rights activists seek protection for animals.
The irony of this central American value of "all men are created equal" is that it's patently untrue. All people aren't equal in any objective way (Jefferson knew this and science continues to demonstrate this fact more and more each day), but nevertheless it would seem to me that society works best when the most people are treated as if they're truly equal.
Thus spoke Ollie.
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Thumper
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HUH?
Sin...you must be unique. I have yet to experience anyone forcing me to behave in a certain way or to adhere to certain beliefs. Every Christmas the local chapter of the KKK is allowed to put up a holiday display along with the Christian and Jewish communities.
My children attend the public school and have yet to be told that there is no such thing as bad behaviour or that such behaviour bears no consequence. They are expected to behave in a certain way that conveys a minimum level of tolerance for others. They aren't allowed to engage in divisive or disruptive behaviour. There is actually an on duty full time police officer on premises at all times the school is operating.
From what I have gleaned from their lesson plans and homework and from interacting with their teachers, they are mostly engaged in studying the actual subject material involved in that class.
When, pray tell, have you (or anybody else) been shouted down and forced to accept an idea you don't agree with. Or do you consider dissent from your opinion by anybody being "shouted down"?
You listen to Rush too much.
And finally, if materialism is considered a "good" value then we are in truly sad shape.
He who dies with the most toys....still dies.
In my opinion..the Bill of Rights would best describe our values.
Sin...you must be unique. I have yet to experience anyone forcing me to behave in a certain way or to adhere to certain beliefs. Every Christmas the local chapter of the KKK is allowed to put up a holiday display along with the Christian and Jewish communities.
My children attend the public school and have yet to be told that there is no such thing as bad behaviour or that such behaviour bears no consequence. They are expected to behave in a certain way that conveys a minimum level of tolerance for others. They aren't allowed to engage in divisive or disruptive behaviour. There is actually an on duty full time police officer on premises at all times the school is operating.
From what I have gleaned from their lesson plans and homework and from interacting with their teachers, they are mostly engaged in studying the actual subject material involved in that class.
When, pray tell, have you (or anybody else) been shouted down and forced to accept an idea you don't agree with. Or do you consider dissent from your opinion by anybody being "shouted down"?
You listen to Rush too much.
And finally, if materialism is considered a "good" value then we are in truly sad shape.
He who dies with the most toys....still dies.
In my opinion..the Bill of Rights would best describe our values.
Ollie, I'll take minor exception to your position that there is no objective equality. If you do not parse each phrase you quote from the Declaration of Independence as separate and unrelated ideas, the objective equality is clearly defined by the following phrases. And I believe Jefferson understood this. He also was wise enough to understand that equality could not be applied in any rational manner other than this for the very reason you so eloquently state.Originally posted by Oliver Clozoff
. . .The irony of this central American value of "all men are created equal" is that it's patently untrue. All people aren't equal in any objective way (Jefferson knew this and science continues to demonstrate this fact more and more each day), but nevertheless it would seem to me that society works best when the most people are treated as if they're truly equal.
Thus spoke Ollie.
That objective equality is the innate rights of the individual, the most fundamental of which is the ownership of one's own life. Liberty and the pursuit of happiness are derivative rights from the primary right.
There is a marvelous analysis of the construction of the Declaration at this link: http://www.nara.gov/exhall/charters/declaration/decstyle.html
What most people fail to recognize (or wish to deny or ignore) is that the only legitimate applicability of rights is to the individual. Next most misunderstood or perhaps obfuscated is that rights guarantee one's freedom of choice and actions imposing the sole restraint that one not violate the equal rights of others; that rights are NOT a guarantee of an outcome.
There is no such thing as the right to property nor to success; only the right to pursue that endeavor. A right only guarantees that, IF you can acquire your objective, then it is yours to dispose of as you see fit.
