There Will be War - Russia VS China

Ishmael

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There Will be War - Russia VS China

History:

Russia began her eastward expansion in the 16th century under the Muscovy rulers. Mostly traders and merchants the expansion moved them eastward until they reached the Lena River and then the Amur River and into contact with the Chinese Empire. Towards the end of the 16th century a treaty was signed between the Muscovites and the Chinese that ceded the Amur valley to the Chinese but left all territories to the north in the hands of the Muscovites.

Over time the Russians encroached on the Amur River valley and the boundary between the two nations is now set at the Amur River.

Russia and China share the longest border on the planet. And as with most borders there are disputes. Over 400 border disputes as a matter of fact. Some disputes are trivial, such as over a tiny island in the middle of the Amur, to much larger issues like all of eastern Siberia. These disputes have led to an exchange of gunfire from time to time.

The Amur disputes aside, China claims that the original treaty sets the eastward limits of the Russian Empire at the Lena river and a line drawn from its source to the Amur. Russia claims that no such limitation exists.

The natives of Eastern Siberia are primarily Oriental in origins and this is a further bolster of China's claims. After all, the Inuit of the area are tribal cousins'. The Inuit of the region would just as soon see both the Russians and the Chinese go away, but are too few in number to be anything but pawns in a much larger game.



The Scenario:

Both Russia and China look to Eastern Siberia as a solution to their nations problems. China is a net importer of petroleum and expects that percentage to increase along with their economic expansion. Naturally, the petroleum reserves both known and suspected in Eastern Siberia are very attractive to them. They wouldn't turn their noses up to the gold and other minerals there either.

Russian is in desperate need of hard currency to build their infrastructure and convert their economy. Their salvation lies in Eastern Siberia. The development of the resources there has the potential to bring Russia into the first rank of nations. It is not a resource they would easily surrender.

Political Considerations:

With almost 500 years of history in the area, the Russians have strong claims. However the Chinese ethnic claims are valid and the issue over the boundary Lena is unclear. The Chinese claims have just enough validity to justify a northward move on their part.

Military:

The Russian Far East Command is in terrible condition, but is at least postured properly to face the Chinese. There is a great deal of fixed emplacements and pre-positioned equipment providing the Russians can move her troops quickly enough.

The military doctrine of the two nations is very similar and the massive build up of the Chinese on the border will give Russia some time to prepare.

Russia has always been willing to trade territory for time and have shown a tenacious ability to defend her territories.

Neither side would have a technological advantage and once again the determining factor in the early going would be the best use of available airpower.

Nuclear capabilities are an option. In this the Russians do have an edge in tactical capabilities. The question is whether the political leadership would be willing to risk a retaliatory strategic strike by the Chinese.

Probabilities:

This one goes beyond probabilities. The Russians are trying to woo the tribal minorities in the region as are the Chinese. Russia is very fearful of the pseudo 'free-enterprise' system that the Chinese have instituted and the growing economic and military might of the Chinese.

As a result of this fear, Russia might begin to upgrade the systems and number of personal along the Chinese border. This in turn could cause the Chinese to suspect that the Russians are planning a preemptive invasion of China. And then the arms race would be on for certain.

Ramifications:

This is another scenario with a high probability of drawing in other nations. The United States would more than likely side with Russia. If not with military involvement, at least with substantial aid. Japan would likely use the circumstance to enter into an agreement with the Russians as well. Primarily the return of Sakhlin Island to Japanese control, and a co-development treaty regarding the resources of Eastern Siberia. The Japanese have no interest in falling under the Chinese economic sphere of influence. The Chinese have long memories regarding the Japanese and Japan could not look forward to kind treatment from China.

Ishmael
 
Zmey said:
you really want Russia to fight some one don't ya? :D

These are already fights in progeress in one form or another. It's not a matter of what I want or don't want.

Russia happens to have 5 critical points and that's the way it is. Further, you may notice that in no scenario, so far, has Russia been the aggressor. Russia has never faired well as an aggressor and the Russians know that.

Ishmael
 
A few questions

I don't see how either nation could justify it.

Certainly both can see what a devastating war it would be. Would it really be worth a potential WW III just to claim some oil-rich land? A war like that would set China back years in terms of economic development, especially if the U.S was to get involved. Their precious MFN trading status would vanish. And Russia, with all their problems, can't afford a war like that, even with U.S. aid. The only way going to war would be worth it for either nation is if it would be a quick, tidy mop-up. And there's no way a China-Russia war would be quick. The outcome is dubious. Far too risky for both sides.

Doesn't it seem more likely that they'll come up with a "mutually prosperous" agreement to divvy up the mining rights?
 
Re: A few questions

EllieTalbot said:
I don't see how either nation could justify it.

Certainly both can see what a devastating war it would be. Would it really be worth a potential WW III just to claim some oil-rich land? A war like that would set China back years in terms of economic development, especially if the U.S was to get involved. Their precious MFN trading status would vanish. And Russia, with all their problems, can't afford a war like that, even with U.S. aid. The only way going to war would be worth it for either nation is if it would be a quick, tidy mop-up. And there's no way a China-Russia war would be quick. The outcome is dubious. Far too risky for both sides.

Doesn't it seem more likely that they'll come up with a "mutually prosperous" agreement to divvy up the mining rights?

First of all, regarding Russia. Of course they don't want a war. But they will fight if it's thrust upon them.

China is another story. They're not a democracy. They are ruled by a coucil of old men with a premier that picks his successor. China could come to feel that it was worth the risk.

The first rule in these cases is to never assign to others the logic that you yourself may apply. You would have a hard time showing the same picture to 4 different people and getting them to agree on what they saw.

Ishmael
 
Re: Re: A few questions

Ishmael said:
First of all, regarding Russia. Of course they don't want a war. But they will fight if it's thrust upon them.

China is another story. They're not a democracy. They are ruled by a coucil of old men with a premier that picks his successor. China could come to feel that it was worth the risk.

The first rule in these cases is to never assign to others the logic that you yourself may apply. You would have a hard time showing the same picture to 4 different people and getting them to agree on what they saw.

Ishmael

If their motives are driven by economic ambition, truly, then war would be counterproductive. China might be ready to flex its military muscles to achieve their economic goals, but how many rounds is it willing to go? Against Russia, Japan, the U.S. and, possibly, a great deal of Europe? The entire Pacific Rim would be dragged into the chaos of all those nations at war, since they're all so tied in economically and strategically.

Lawdy, lawdy! What a mess! :eek:

How can they not see what a quagmire it would be?

You say: "The first rule in these cases is to never assign to others the logic that you yourself may apply. You would have a hard time showing the same picture to 4 different people and getting them to agree on what they saw."

Agreed. Who knows what will actually happen? You're thinking they'll go to war. I'm thinking that they'll scare themselves out of the idea.

I'm interested to see which way it will go.

Care to place a friendly wager, good sir?

Wondering in Worcestershire,
Ellie
 
Ishmael said:
1.2 Billion Chinamen can't be wrong. Can they?

Ishmael

Certainly not about the tasty goodness that is chicken lomein and pot stickers, they can't.
 
I recently read, and can't find the source material, that China is currently de-facto invaiding eastern russia nd Siberia- in the next 5 to 10 years, chinese will be the majority in terms of population. THis would make fighting a war against the Chinese in those areas rather problematic. THis slow invasion is intentional, and being done to support the eventual occupation of those areas of Russia.
 
Re: Re: Re: A few questions

EllieTalbot said:


Agreed. Who knows what will actually happen? You're thinking they'll go to war. I'm thinking that they'll scare themselves out of the idea.


Ellie

Wrong, I think that it's a possibility. Not carved in stone.

Go read the prologue to the series. This is the third scenario. I have many more to go.

I assign probabilities to most. This one I didn't because neither nation really wants a shooting war with the other. They are diplomatically mature and realtively sophisticated. But feces occurs.

However, there is friction and fear. Neither are good combinations between nations, or people.

Ishmael
 
Carp said:
I recently read, and can't find the source material, that China is currently de-facto invaiding eastern russia nd Siberia- in the next 5 to 10 years, chinese will be the majority in terms of population. THis would make fighting a war against the Chinese in those areas rather problematic. THis slow invasion is intentional, and being done to support the eventual occupation of those areas of Russia.

That is what I alluded to in the scenario. The Chinese are attempting to create a de-facto situation with the indigenouls peoples and their own emmigrants.

The problem is not the ethnicity of the peoples that live there. Rather whether the proceeds of the wealth flows to Biejing, or Moscow. And that is determined by who is the seat of power.

Ishmael
 
Alrighty then! I thought that your title for the thread, "There Will Be War- Russia VS China" was your basic position on the issue.

Now that I know your position isn't as absolute as that title implies, that kinda changes things.

Frowning in Fredricksburg,
Ellie
 
EllieTalbot said:
Alrighty then! I thought that your title for the thread, "There Will Be War- Russia VS China" was your basic position on the issue.

Now that I know your position isn't as absolute as that title implies, that kinda changes things.

Frowning in Fredricksburg,
Ellie

Read the prologue. "There Will be War" is only a reference to the fact that there are continuous global conflicts. Some more dangerous than others.

Ishmael
 
I did read the prologue, I assure you. Yes, you were discussing probabilities in your prologue. I know this. I thought that the probabilities were in support of a general certainty of war.

And you've corrected that misunderstanding. Please understand, I'm new here, and unfamiliar with people's styles, issues, etc.

But from now on, I'll know better than to take it literally if you should title a thread, say: "There Will Be War- U.S. VS Monaco."

Okay? ;)

Prologued in Prague,
Ellie
 
EllieTalbot said:
I did read the prologue, I assure you. Yes, you were discussing probabilities in your prologue. I know this. I thought that the probabilities were in support of a general certainty of war.

And you've corrected that misunderstanding. Please understand, I'm new here, and unfamiliar with people's styles, issues, etc.

But from now on, I'll know better than to take it literally if you should title a thread, say: "There Will Be War- U.S. VS Monaco."

Okay? ;)

Prologued in Prague,
Ellie

World traveler huh? :)

Now ya know.

Ishmael
 
China aint goin to war any time soon as long as they are abask in the glow of capitalism...

Unless GWB sticks his foot in his mouth with them too and adds them to the list of countries who have no respect for America,
BECAUSE of him...

silly goose;)

nice work Ellie....:rose:
 
eagleyez said:
China aint goin to war any time soon as long as they are abask in the glow of capitalism...

Unless GWB sticks his foot in his mouth with them too and adds them to the list of countries who have no respect for America,
BECAUSE of him...

silly goose;)

nice work Ellie....:rose:

Let's start with a salient point here. I don't give a shit about what other countries, as represented by their political leadership, care about the United States anymore than I give a shit about what you think of me. My goal in life is not to be your friend, and I would hope that my countries goal in existance is to take the proper action. Not build a consensus based on the lowest common denominator.

Now, your comments re. GWB are non-sensical. You have not excersized one iota of your intelligence in spouting rhetoric that has nothing to do with the subject or the problems introduced. Just cheap political shots in a thread that has nothing to do with what you're talking about. You are beginning to sound like 70/30.

Ishmael
 
eagleyez said:
China aint goin to war any time soon as long as they are abask in the glow of capitalism...

Unless GWB sticks his foot in his mouth with them too and adds them to the list of countries who have no respect for America,
BECAUSE of him...

silly goose;)

nice work Ellie....:rose:

Okay, if I was just working, where's my paycheck...?

Cash-poor in Cali,
Ellie
 
Ishmael said:
Let's start with a salient point here. I don't give a shit about what other countries, as represented by their political leadership, care about the United States anymore than I give a shit about what you think of me. My goal in life is not to be your friend, and I would hope that my countries goal in existance is to take the proper action. Not build a consensus based on the lowest common denominator.

Now, your comments re. GWB are non-sensical. You have not excersized one iota of your intelligence in spouting rhetoric that has nothing to do with the subject or the problems introduced. Just cheap political shots in a thread that has nothing to do with what you're talking about. You are beginning to sound like 70/30.

Ishmael

Goals in life? Bein my friend? Proper action? Whoa Pony-

Just trying to lighten your loafers there Ish. Chill out. I think this war thing has you a little too pomped up brother. Any talk of major outbreak of war (russia v china? cmon thats world war fella) has to have a mention of our dimwit Prez. He'll take any war he can get to get re-elected...watch and learn...
 
eagleyez said:
Goals in life? Bein my friend? Proper action? Whoa Pony-

Just trying to lighten your loafers there Ish. Chill out. I think this war thing has you a little too pomped up brother. Any talk of major outbreak of war (russia v china? cmon thats world war fella) has to have a mention of our dimwit Prez. He'll take any war he can get to get re-elected...watch and learn...

And once again you've interjected your personal political agenda into a scenario that obviates what ever our president may want to do.

You may, or may not, recall that a majority of congress, both houses, voted for military action against Iraq a year ago. So a democratically controled Senate voted for this and you assume that GWB is acting unilaterally. Sorry, still rhetoric.

Ishmael
 
Great Wall

Sorry G.W.Bush and the gang are so late on this one it aint even funny.

As Ish laid out in his statments these people have a history of not being friendly with each other. True the great wall was built to keep out the Mongols but it has been pretty much a hot cold war since then. Just because you are a nuclear power dosen't mean you have to use such.

Nice one Ish and very valid. Russia is broke and well the Chinese have always been slowly expanding.
 
Not many people know this, but China now has more main battle tanks then America does. When they have more or as many tanks as Russia does then they will move. When they steal the technology to shoot down ballistic missiles from the U.S. then they will move.

Russia and China both have huge Mass armies, China is behind the 8-ball in technology. However, Russia's greed is its doom; they are selling China all their best technology. China has already modernized its Mobile Brigades to Western standards, when it's Rank and File Infantry divisions are also modernizes, when enough of the new armaments filter it's way down to the standard mechanized and armored divisions, then China will move against Russia.
 
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