The who's the target audience question again

[sr71plt]

Reaction to my contest story that posted today dumps me back into another round of both the female/male (gay male in this case) perspectives of sexual relationships and “what’s the target audience for GM” discussions.

Two readers of my stories on Lit. (and ones who are supportive, so this isn’t a rant on them—beyond a questioning of perspective and audience targeting) hit my latest posted story with criticism that blindsided me from my own perspective of the thrust of the story theme and my target audience (the gay male. The gay who is actually male—and, in this case, the guy who is actively gay and, most likely, a bottom). I can see where the criticism is valid from a female perspective if it was written for women, but where I have trouble is in the apparent inability to realize that their (female) perspective isn’t the valid one for the story’s targeted audience—and that they seem to be stuck on thinking there is only one perspective for viewing a story setup--and especially so in the GM category.

I bring it up to show the comment following theirs that spot on, I think, hits the issue here for a writer writing directly to the actual gay male.


The comments from the ladies (yes, I checked, and they do claim to be female) (And I use these for the point of this post because they are supportive readers of my stories here generally):


The story was yes and no for me. While I appreciate the little bit of romance in it, I did feel that Paul was manipulated by Ted in regards to his grieving. As someone who has lost a mate, grieving takes time and it's presumptuous for someone to say how long is long enough. I mean, Adrian hadn't even been gone a full year! If Ted really wanted Paul so badly, how about trying to court the guy?

* * *

I feel the same as [XXX. First commenter]. Who were they to decide that all he needed was a good fucking? It seemed selfish of everyone involved, who wanted the "old" Paul back. Paul would never be that man again. People change and grow, and Paul's friends didn't want that to happen. As for Ted, well ... he bought a bed partner. I couldn't fully enjoy the story because the little bit of romanticism was drowned out by the callous sex. Go one way or the other, y'know? But it was well-written, as usual, and this flurry of Christmas stories from sr71plt is certainly ensuring I won't see the holiday the same ever again. :0)


And then, the response from an anonymous claimed gay male reader:

As a gay male, I found this really authentic of the gay male mindset and I appreciate this writer for writing gay male stuff directly for gay guys. The two comments before mine, at least as I see them, seem to be from the perspective of a woman. That's fine for them, but I like reading the gay male stories here written in the gay male mindset. I think gay guys coming up with the answer to a gay having lost his top of the guy needing another rider as soon as possible whether he realizes that or not is natural to the active gay guy. If anything, I think the main character moped too much. I think SR71 could write more romances, but at least he's writing for me.


So, what is my point? First, it's because there's a comment in hand that, I think, hits the situation dead on. Beyond that, it’s not to complain that only gay males should read, vote, and comment on the GM stories I post here—I know that’s not going to happen (if for no other reason than that most actual GMs seem to come to read and then to float off without responding by vote or comment), nor should it. And I know that it means the ratings will be lower and, in fact, will be lower than for GM stories written from the female perspective, because most of the GM voters and commenters appear to be female.

But it invites more discussion, based on these examples of the difference between female and male (and in this case specifically gay male) perspectives of sexual relationships and, perhaps, even of the phenomena of who the gay male writers are and what audiences they are targeting, on the one hand. And, on the other hand, it invites readers to consider that theirs isn’t the only perspective on sexual relationships. I think both of the original commenters, albeit they are supportive readers of my GM stories in general, completely miss that the perspective in the stories may be legitimate for the audience the stories are targeted to.

 

[alex_d]

Once you publish your work on a free site, you've lost control of who your "target" is - it's out there, not yours anymore. You may be aiming your stuff at gay men, but who knows what percentage they make up of your readers? The fact is (and I'm a published GM author too) that the majority of GM stories seem to be read by heterosexual women who outnumber gay men by quite a substantial number. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that they're women who are sick to death of the stereotypical bullshit that passes as hetero "romance" (I mean published) so no wonder they're looking for a different dynamic. I'm sure you - as a published author - have had pressures to "cheese up" your stuff and make it less realistic. That's the market. You conform or you get people sending you emails - like I've had - crying for less "realism" and more "romance" (whatever that is). If you want your stuff to be widely read and popular, target women. Otherwise, welcome to the blindside

You're right, it's an interesting point. Happy holidays.

 

[sr71plt]

Well, yes, I pretty much put all of that in my post. The subsequent comments on the story itself this morning, are interesting--including, I'm glad to say, a return of the first two commenters to acknowledge that perhaps they weren't bringing the perspectives to the story that the targeted audience (some of whom have also weighed in) has.

 

[alex_d]

So what exactly are you inviting discussion on, if you already know who your audience is? The fact that women reading your stories will be turned off by the apparent promiscuity of some of your characters? As if women aren't promiscuous too? How do you know that these "gay men" who are commenting are even that? This is the internet. Anyone can be whatever they want to be, right here. TRUST NO ONE (oops, giving away ex-crush on Mulder and Scully)

 

[sr71plt]

I think I stated the discussions I think can be touched on again, with this example as a backdrop:

1. The whole difference in female/male perspectives on sexual relationships (and here, focusing on the gay male perspectives). Even recent forum threads here show that some folks still don't get that the perspectives are different and that they can respond more fairly to both stories and discussions here by being open to the differences. So, as long as it's apparent that there are folks who don't get it, discussions of it are useful.

2. And then that there are subsets of writers and readers in various categories (not just GM, discussed here, but also ones like Incest and Loving Wives) and that readers--and people posting to this forum too--can, through discussions like this, be changed to broaden their understandings of these subsets and then letting them coexist rather than asserting how "it should be done." This too has popped up in recent forum discussions. GM is a good case in point because there are two pretty distinct splits on wrtiers/readers of GM stories here. There are a few of us writing actual GM perspective for actual GM readers. And then there is the larger group of women writers writing women's perspectives of GM for women who like to read women's perspectives in GM.

I think that continued discussion on this is appropriate, especially if it leads one side of the split to acknowledge the other side and to let them coexist. This thread alone apparently has led two of my regular readers to reconsider how they are reading my GM stories. So, the thread already is a win for me.

And the thread discussion could also help shut up a regular jackass poster (or two) here who loves to point to my ratings for GM stories as some sort of index of the quality of the stories. The reality is that the GM split reader I target is not prone to either vote or comment but it seems to like well enough to find stories actually written from a GM perspective here (as evidenced in the comments generated so far by this specific story). So, even in the GM category, the GM stories written by women for women, who quite apparently do most of the voting and commenting, will rate higher. That should be fine with anyone understanding the dynamics here and not being intent on being a forum asshole. If a discussion like this helps to get the jackasses to stop doing the uncalled comparison thing on the forum just to rag on someone, that will be a plus of having this discussion too.

 

[lovecraft68]

I think I stated the discussions I think can be touched on again, with this example as a backdrop:

1. The whole difference in female/male perspectives on sexual relationships (and here, focusing on the gay male perspectives). Even recent forum threads here show that some folks still don't get that the perspectives are different and that they can respond more fairly to both stories and discussions here by being open to the differences. So, as long as it's apparent that there are folks who don't get it, discussions of it are useful.

2. And then that there are subsets of writers and readers in various categories (not just GM, discussed here, but also ones like Incest and Loving Wives) and that readers--and people posting to this forum too--can, through discussions like this, be changed to broaden their understandings of these subsets and then letting them coexist rather than asserting how "it should be done." This too has popped up in recent forum discussions. GM is a good case in point because there are two pretty distinct splits on wrtiers/readers of GM stories here. There are a few of us writing actual GM perspective for actual GM readers. And then there is the larger group of women writers writing women's perspectives of GM for women who like to read women's perspectives in GM.

I think that continued discussion on this is appropriate, especially if it leads one side of the split to acknowledge the other side and to let them coexist. This thread alone apparently has led two of my regular readers to reconsider how they are reading my GM stories. So, the thread already is a win for me.

And the thread discussion could also help shut up a regular jackass poster (or two) here who loves to point to my ratings for GM stories as some sort of index of the quality of the stories. The reality is that the GM split reader I target is not prone to either vote or comment but it seems to like well enough to find stories actually written from a GM perspective here (as evidenced in the comments generated so far by this specific story). So, even in the GM category, the GM stories written by women for women, who quite apparently do most of the voting and commenting, will rate higher. That should be fine with anyone understanding the dynamics here and not being intent on being a forum asshole. If a discussion like this helps to get the jackasses to stop doing the uncalled comparison thing on the forum just to rag on someone, that will be a plus of having this discussion too.

Awww, I really am under your skin aren't I?

So much so that you need to explain and justify an entire categories dynamics.

I thought things like comments and audiences and ratings didn't bother you?

Apparently I bother you, and I enjoy knowing that.

still doesn't explain why other GM writers have nice high ratings though.

But that's nice you found a couple of readers who justify your work. Good for you. So because said posters drink your kool aid that explains everything?

How lame.

Oh, and for the record having not much interest in GM I was going to skip any posting here until you started whining about me.

 

[PennLady]

Well, that derailing didn't take long at all.

More on topic, I was trying to think of something to contribute here -- lord knows I have no shortage of opinions -- but I just couldn't. Seems to me it's ground that's been covered before. Men and women have different views on relationships, I don't think anyone would argue that, but of course men have different views among themselves and women as well.

It would be nice if readers widened their horizons a little when it comes to different genres, true. However -- as I myself found out when reading a voyeur story for a thread a while ago -- it's not always the easiest thing, and you don't always get helpful help.

Anyway, for GM stories in particular, I have long wondered if the stories written by/for women are at all accurate or realistic. But I wonder if what I'm really questioning is whether any gay men read and/or like such stories.

 

[sr71plt]

Well, that derailing didn't take long at all.

There's been a derailing? I have him on ignore and this isn't one of those "I'm reading him" days. Maybe tomorrow. Then again, maybe not.

On the issues having been discussed, yes, but, no, not everyone understands (and accepts) that there are differences. We had a "why won't my man tell me what he thinks?" thread just yesterday. And the example used in this thread--and brought up because it was such a good example of the issue--shows how much these differences still aren't understood and accepted. (And also how much they possibly can be considered just if the discussion is renewed with current examples. The two commenters' story comments initiating this thread were revisited by the commenters with a show of greater understanding. Just had to be brought to their attention. So the discussion seems still worthwhile to me).

 

[PennLady]

There's been a derailing? I have him on ignore and this isn't one of those "I'm reading him" days. Maybe tomorrow. Then again, maybe not.

On the issues having been discussed, yes, but, no, not everyone understands (and accepts) that there are differences. We had a "why won't my man tell me what he thinks?" thread just yesterday. And the example used in this thread--and brought up because it was such a good example of the issue--shows how much these differences still aren't understood and accepted. (And also how much they possibly can be considered just if the discussion is renewed with current examples. The two commenters' story comments initiating this thread were revisited by the commenters with a show of greater understanding. Just had to be brought to their attention. So the discussion seems still worthwhile to me).

Okay, then I guess it hasn't been derailed. That's good.

 

[sr71plt]

Anyway, for GM stories in particular, I have long wondered if the stories written by/for women are at all accurate or realistic. But I wonder if what I'm really questioning is whether any gay men read and/or like such stories.

I don't read many of them (Maybe gay men will respond here--I'm sure their responses would be interesting. But then again maybe they won't comment here, because this isn't a particularly gay-friendly forum. Gay bashing is mostly tolerated).

I've edited some women-written GM stories for Lit. authors, with the result that the stories usually moved closer to a true gay male perspective (which the author seemed to appreciate). But my impression of the gay male the woman wants and writes is a handsome guy with a great bod and a woman's sensitivities. Some gay males may be closer to that than many straight men, but that's a fringe group, I think.

Gay male sexuality for most GMs has more to do with being covered on a bed or bent over a sofa arm than with the set of Will and Grace. Gay male couples--for those who settle down to that--do mellow over time from the emphasis on having sex--as does a heterosexual marriage--but not nearly as fast/completely as in a heterosexual marriage, I don't think. Sex usually remains the keystone to the relationship--at least until they pass fifty and go to pot physically and even then they like to pretend it's central.

 

[scouries]

ace did you go off your meds today?

“Subsets? Female perspective? Target audience? Miss the perspective? Understanding the dynamics? Split reader I target not prone to vote or comment?”

WTF!!!

Listen ace it isn’t that difficult. Write a good story that readers like and you will receive lots of votes, comments and a good score. Doesn’t matter what category or what day of the week it is – write it and they will come.

This after the fact dissembling, trying to somehow blame your low vote totals on the fucking mindset of the reader is the feeblest argument you’ve ever presented for your lack of success here. Blaming the customer for the defective product? I think not my good man. They’re sending you a message. A clear message.

Start with yourself ace. Your stories. What have you done well? What badly? Get your nose off the ceiling and into your work. Why don’t they like it? What can you do better?

I’ll give you a quick starting point – it’s not the quantity it’s the quality that counts. You’re simply putting up on the site too many rushed, poorly thought out and unedited stories. Your latest output - this wave of awful Xmas stories - is a perfect example of this.

And I’m afraid that the sr71plt brand is now so badly tarnished that perhaps your best bet is to start over with another name. ​

 

[sr71plt]

This message is hidden because scouries is on your ignore list.

I see the second of the sleazebag twins finally showed up. I'm not surprised.

 

[scouries]

So the discussion seems still worthwhile to me… This message is hidden because scouries is on your ignore list.

You can’t have it both ways ace. For years you’ve whined about the trolls voting down your stories. Then lovergirl (ytcc), bless her little heart, did a study of your stories and scores and demonstrated just how badly you’ve fared compared to your GM contemporaries.

So then you whined that he was discussing your scores unfairly. Poor baby. It seems it was okay for you to complain but not fair for someone else to set the record straight.

So now your explanation is that your “target audience” doesn’t vote which supposedly explains your low vote totals. Apparantly it took you some 700 GM stories and 6 years to figure this out.

And your low scores are now due to female voters. Like Mitt you now claim you’re suffering from a gender gap. In the Gay Male category poor ace is blaming the babes for his misfortunes. C’mon man!

I suggest you buy a mirror. The guy who’ll be looking back at you is the problem – not a “non-voting target audience” or our female readers.

​

 

[lovecraft68]

Taking a look at Your last 10 GM efforts(and pretty much all your efforts for months have been GM so get off your I'm not a one trick pony horse close to 80% of your work is GM)

Your average score for 7 of the stories is about 4.17

Now why only 7 when I said I looked at the last 10?

Glad you asked!

because MR. I don;t care what people think and scores mean nothing is now shutting off his voting if his story hits an H


How fucking pathetic. Note to you Pilot, if you're going to talk shit and say you don't care, then don;t care. Instead you're trying to lock down a few H's you allegedly don't care about. Sad little man.

Now what I also did was look at the current top ten GM stories over the last 30 days average vote total 247 average score 4.8 very good numbers.

You obviously don't have a score anywhere near there and as for vote totals? I can't find them, because the only way to see vote totals is top lists and you can't find a place on those with a fucking GPS.

Funny how all these other authors are not affected by women or factions or whatever the hell else your whiny fucking ass is crying about. These people are doing just fine.

Oh, and just for fun? Pilot's last incest foray? 3.74. Not even close to 4 in a fairly soft voted category. what was the problem there? Miss your target again?

Numbers do not lie. Fess up asshole your work here is not well received.

Mr. "People who try to write stories with plot here are just wannabes" Yeah? Those wannabes are kicking your sorry fucking ass all over this site.

Guess they're doing it in the publishing market as well aren't they?

See I never forget a snotty remark. And a long time ago when I said I was going on SW you made a crack that "You know we can see rankings and sales right?"

Meaning you would see I was selling shit, is what you were saying.

Well a quick look up of Mr. Habu shows that in 2+ years you have only been put on only 4 "favorite" pages over there. 4? for such an amazing real world author?

Only 4. For a man who is so far above us. Who is just so fucking successful. Who compared to, everyone else here is just a hack wannabe.

Guess you missed the target there as well hotshot. Or is scouries trolling you on SW? Is he stealing your favs? Blocking your amazon sales? because you and I both know what you're not selling over there.

Let me tell you something your daddy should have told you a long time ago.

When you do nothing but talk shit, you better back it up because people will be expecting you to be as good as you say.

and as far as backing my shit, anyone who feels like wasting their time can go drag up my last ten stories and match me up against people in "my" category incest. I have no doubt I hold my own there and if I don't? Oh, well what's it matter? I'm just a wannabe after all.

This thread was the worst thing you could have done here.

Whining about your numbers, trying to justify your scores and lack of appeal.

Loser.

I suppose I could be more eloquent, but in looking at my target audience(you) I'll just use little words for a little man.

Fraud. Poser. Wannabe. Hack.

Welcome to Ignore Pilot because there is never anything you will have to say that will replace this sad little thread, your excuses and your whining.

You showed yourself for what you are. A big ass cry baby and that is how I am going to remember you

And just to show you I have manners, I want to give you a big Thank you for this thread, it was an awesome Christmas present. You shouldn't have!

Really, you shouldn't have!

 

[sr71plt]

This message is hidden because lovecraft68 is on your ignore list.

 

[Derroreaper]

This message is hidden because lovecraft68 is on your ignore list.

No shit, I'm adding him to mine now too.

Listen up dumb ass, I turned off voting and comments on all my stories, when I had zero red Hs left, and now due to sweeps all but one are red, so go sit in the corner and figure that one out fuck nuts.

 

[PennLady]

Really, you shouldn't have!

No, you shouldn't have. This is really tiresome. You spout all these stats about favorites, views, Hs, etc. -- on a freaking free internet site! This is not peer review! What do you care if anyone locks their voting? Maybe they see it as a marketing or advertising gimmick. But good Lord, what do you care? And before you tell me you don't, you obviously do, or you wouldn't spend so much time writing these screeds.

Please, just stop.

 

[mikey2much]

I am not sure what you hoped to accompish?

Taking a look at Your last 10 GM efforts(and pretty much all your efforts for months have been GM so get off your I'm not a one trick pony horse close to 80% of your work is GM)

Your average score for 7 of the stories is about 4.17

Now w
Glad you asked!

because MR. I don;t care what people think and scores mean nothing is now shutting off his voting if his story hits an H


How fucking pathetic. Note to you Pilot, if you're going to talk shit and say you don't care, then don;t care. Instead you're trying to lock down a few H's you allegedly hy only 7 when I said I looked at the last 10?
don't care about. Sad little man.

Now what I also did was look at the current top ten GM stories over the last 30 days average vote total 247 average score 4.8 very good numbers.

You obviously don't have a score anywhere near there and as for vote totals? I can't find them, because the only way to see vote totals is top lists and you can't find a place on those with a fucking GPS.

Funny how all these other authors are not affected by women or factions or whatever the hell else your whiny fucking ass is crying about. These people are doing just fine.

Oh, and just for fun? Pilot's last incest foray? 3.74. Not even close to 4 in a fairly soft voted category. what was the problem there? Miss your target again?

Numbers do not lie. Fess up asshole your work here is not well received.

Mr. "People who try to write stories with plot here are just wannabes" Yeah? Those wannabes are kicking your sorry fucking ass all over this site.

Guess they're doing it in the publishing market as well aren't they?

See I never forget a snotty remark. And a long time ago when I said I was going on SW you made a crack that "You know we can see rankings and sales right?"

Meaning you would see I was selling shit, is what you were saying.

Well a quick look up of Mr. Habu shows that in 2+ years you have only been put on only 4 "favorite" pages over there. 4? for such an amazing real world author?

Only 4. For a man who is so far above us. Who is just so fucking successful. Who compared to, everyone else here is just a hack wannabe.

Guess you missed the target there as well hotshot. Or is scouries trolling you on SW? Is he stealing your favs? Blocking your amazon sales? because you and I both know what you're not selling over there.

Let me tell you something your daddy should have told you a long time ago.

When you do nothing but talk shit, you better back it up because people will be expecting you to be as good as you say.

and as far as backing my shit, anyone who feels like wasting their time can go drag up my last ten stories and match me up against people in "my" category incest. I have no doubt I hold my own there and if I don't? Oh, well what's it matter? I'm just a wannabe after all.

This thread was the worst thing you could have done here.

Whining about your numbers, trying to justify your scores and lack of appeal.

Loser.

I suppose I could be more eloquent, but in looking at my target audience(you) I'll just use little words for a little man.

Fraud. Poser. Wannabe. Hack.

Welcome to Ignore Pilot because there is never anything you will have to say that will replace this sad little thread, your excuses and your whining.

You showed yourself for what you are. A big ass cry baby and that is how I am going to remember you

And just to show you I have manners, I want to give you a big Thank you for this thread, it was an awesome Christmas present. You shouldn't have!

Really, you shouldn't have!

But you sure sounded like an asshole while you did it. Like you said, "you really shouldn't have".

 

[sr71plt]

But you sure sounded like an asshole while you did it. Like you said, "you really shouldn't have".

Awwk, you quoted him. But I restrained myself. Thanks for the post, though.

I think the bottom line is that only a flaming asshole (and an insecure one at that) would come to the Lit. forum to rag on another Lit. author's stories. In that vein, Lovecraft68 and Scouries are twins, cut out of the same trolllish cloth.

 

[sr71plt]

No shit, I'm adding him to mine now too.

Listen up dumb ass, I turned off voting and comments on all my stories, when I had zero red Hs left, and now due to sweeps all but one are red, so go sit in the corner and figure that one out fuck nuts.

Was locked voting what this nuclear attack was about? Locked voting? I have locked the votes on 3 out 557 stories here, and that was what this foaming at the mouth shit was about? Amazing. Could this guy be any crazier--and more jealous?

 

[PennLady]

Was locked voting what this nuclear attack was about? Locked voting? I have locked the votes on 3 out 557 stories here, and that was what this foaming at the mouth shit was about? Amazing. Could this guy be any crazier--and more jealous?

It wasn't just locked voting, but that was mentioned. Also scoring in general.

Never ask if anyone can be crazier -- they'll no doubt prove they can.

 

[nomoretears00]

Okay, my two cents worth here seeing as I'm a M/M author.

Pilot has a point. There is a subset to the genre. There *is* a difference in the stories written to appeal to gay males and stories written with GM characters geared toward females. That doesn't mean one type of story is better than the other. What it does mean is there is a lot of *female* readers looking for a certain something when they read M/M that gay males might not care about.

Honestly, this issue is talked about in many M/M author yahoo (or better known as yahell lol) groups.

I'm female, and have never hid the fact. My fans know this. And... most of my fans are females. I have some GM that like my stuff, but the biggest group is female.

 

[sr71plt]

It wasn't just locked voting, but that was mentioned. Also scoring in general.

Never ask if anyone can be crazier -- they'll no doubt prove they can.

Thanks. And point taken. Lovecraft68 has been progressively more crazy and obnoxious in his obsession with me and my stories/books over the past two years, so I guess I'll have to concede that this can continue. It just will continue with him being on my ignore so that it's just those of you who like to listen to him who are being entertained by this.

 

[TimothyM]

Meanwhile back to the plot

OK, I've read the Fire Spotter story again, and I'm still not sure what the problem is. In fact I think it's probably the most romantic of the contest stories you've entered so far. And certainly much more that the cruise story in which the drunken orgy turned me off quite a bit. Why were there no complaints of the lack of romance in that story ?
Hmm maybe because the initial sob factor of Paul having lost his boyfriend lead the readers to believe that the story would be much more 'feel-good' than was the case. But for those of us who read and enjoy your stories just the way they are, this one could actually be considered rather romantic, I think (not that I've read enough of your work, to be able to say for sure that you haven't written even more romantic stuff).
Anyway, I have nothing to contribute concerning the difference between women and gay man as readers or writers of GM. I'm sure there are gay men who like romance, as well as women who enjoy a hot unromantic M/M story, even if you are probably right in the assessment of the main bias of the two audiences. It's just a fact of life that GM has two main types of fans, and even though I find the discussion interesting, I'm not sure what to think or whether it really matters.

 

[sr71plt]

The funny thing is that the most enthusiastic responses I get by readers claiming to be gay males is for the gang bang scenes. So I continue to write those from time to time.