The Vicissitudes of Submissive Development

[sunnydawn]

i would appreciate it if some of you would read this article:

The Vicissitudes of Submissive Development




And then post your thoughts and feelings about it here.
when i found it i felt it discribed me well.

 

[FurryFury]

i would appreciate it if some of you would read this article:

The Vicissitudes of Submissive Development




And then post your thoughts and feelings about it here.
when i found it i felt it discribed me well.

I like the word vicissitude, you don't see it used much outside of White Wolf publications.

Okay, I agree that most therapists see submissiveness as a red flag and. IMO, shouldn't.

I don't believe that being submissive should have to have much to do with needing therapy in general.

I see myself as more in the first category (though I may not be exclusively heterosexual) than the second or third, in spite of the sometimes "bad" fit I had with my very passionate and scary parents.

They didn't know about this "bad fit" however. I kept it from them. I was a chameleon, they thought things were pretty freaking easy with raising me. That might be because I felt I was raising them and myself. *shrugs*

However, my poor girl, now, I think she is in fact, a "bad fit" with me and always has been. I don't know if she is going to identify as submissive or not. At one time she was such a people pleaser (of anyone other than me) that she actually scared me for that attitude.

She has swung the other way on that now as far as I can tell. She scares me still but for other reasons. I try too hard and identify too much of my happiness and success with her's. She's a teen, so she is not happy a lot of the time and angry at me so often. I'm exhausted.

Fury

 

[Blushing Bottom]

You speak so well Fury.

*hugs*

More later when I have time to think about this topic with a clear head. my field being psych has elicited a tweak in my tired brain today.



Edited to say I grew up in a "good fit/ill fit household, depending on which caregivers I was with. I spent some equal time between my parents and grandparents in my more formative years while developing my personality.

I like the word vicissitude, you don't see it used much outside of White Wolf publications.

Okay, I agree that most therapists see submissiveness as a red flag and. IMO, shouldn't.

I don't believe that being submissive should have to have much to do with needing therapy in general.

I see myself as more in the first category (though I may not be exclusively heterosexual) than the second or third, in spite of the sometimes "bad" fit I had with my very passionate and scary parents.

They didn't know about this "bad fit" however. I kept it from them. I was a chameleon, they thought things were pretty freaking easy with raising me. That might be because I felt I was raising them and myself. *shrugs*

However, my poor girl, now, I think she is in fact, a "bad fit" with me and always has been. I don't know if she is going to identify as submissive or not. At one time she was such a people pleaser (of anyone other than me) that is actually scared me for that attitude.

She has swung the other way on that now as far as I can tell. She scares me still but for other reasons. I try too hard and identify too much of my happiness and success with her's. She's a teen, so she is not happy a lot of the time and angry at me so often. I'm exhausted.

Fury

 

[FurryFury]

You speak so well Fury.

*hugs*

More later when I have time to think about this topic with a clear head. my field being psych has elicited a tweak in my tired brain today.



Edited to say I grew up in a "good fit/ill fit household, depending on which caregivers I was with. I spent some equal time between my parents and grandparents in my more formative years while developing my personality.

Thanks BB!

*hugs*

I look forward to reading your post when you make it!

Fury

 

[Netzach]

I think that's a hell of a valiant effort to try and justify/explain raving perversion to people who aren't going to "get it" anyway. And it belies fundamental ill-at-easeness with ones sexuality to try to get it validated by the mainstream all the time.

I was also written off as a Dominant woman by the therapy community, it's part of my pathology blah blah. That is how they react to everything other than some standard which is a middle class white male.

I'd much rather live my kinky fucked up fun than explain to my therapist why it's really ok.

 

[chelseachained]

Interesting

i would appreciate it if some of you would read this article:

The Vicissitudes of Submissive Development





And then post your thoughts and feelings about it here.
when i found it i felt it discribed me well.

my first immediate thought was the "good fit" real or imagined perceives herself in a caretaker role leading to submissiveness while the "bad fit"
takes an agressive path to the same means to find the same fix.

 

[pandoravampire]

I had read this article some time ago. As a paradigm, its fine.
Im a little uneasy at the premise of 'sickness' that it implies. Or at least, ill mental health.

Also, much like the 12 steps preached by Alcoholics Anomynous, it does not allow much scope for moving beyond the situation and flowering alone. In independance. It is a disenpowering view point to hold, and that is against my personal ethos.

Interesting article however.

pandoravampire

 

[jadefirefly]

I don't exactly get it.

Is it suggesting that those of us who are mentally stable, yet are submissive, are still in need of therapy?

It's late, and I'm tired, I'll admit that. And sure, I could probably stand for a good round of therapy. But it's sure as hell not for anything relating to being submissive.

My head hurts now.

What *part* of the article did the OP think described her? That's what I want to know. It describes different kinds of people...

 

[crazybbwgirl]

Interesting article. I think #1 fits me to a penny. I was definately the black sheep (middle daughter of 3 - of COURSE I was) in the family but I don't think it damaged me all that much. Looking back on it - my parents were not all that terrible. At least not as terrible as I thought they were when I was a teen.

This might be a useful article for someone who is facing some emotional crises and also happens to be submissive. But I think the author has a pretty narrow row to hoe here.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

...snip...She has swung the other way on that now as far as I can tell. She scares me still but for other reasons. I try too hard and identify too much of my happiness and success with her's. She's a teen, so she is not happy a lot of the time and angry at me so often. I'm exhausted.

Fury

I just wanted to pass along a word of encouragement to you. As the mother of two daughters - 24 and 21 - I just want to say - the longer you can roll with the punches and pick your fights carefully - the better off you'll be. Teens do grow up to be the most awesome people! Its true!

 

[cati]

If you will read Tovah's credentials she does claim to have an interest in BDSM, so she isn't just some therapist/outsider making wise-ass comments. Many other therapists/psychologists have found a correlation between histrionic, borderline, even narcissistic (mostly male) traits among lifestylers.
Not to say all, but many.

From what I have read and experienced, I have concluded that many alpha Dominants do have Narcissistic personalities, some more disordered than others.

I have found this article posted at several BDSM websites, this reprint was taken from the "Fetish Alliance" website and I'm thinking there must be a valid reason for it. Many people who have an interest in BDSM and learning more about "what makes/may make a submissive "tick" should find the article enlightening. I for one am very keen on reading any article written from a Psychological perspective that pertains to D/s.


The Healthy Submissive: is born with the central developmental trait of social responsiveness leading to sensitivity to others' expectation, needs, and emotions, and ultimately to becoming an adult people pleaser with an external locus of control. Her sexuality follows along these lines, and she has her most intense pleasure when in sexual service, even if, and often especially when, she suffers in service. She is relatively unconflicted about both her dependency needs and her sexuality, and is happiest in a consciously D/s based relationship.

I see myself in the above paragraph. I may have a few borderline traits...shrugs.
I'd have to give this subject some more thought before I come to any real conclusions *

I think what the author is trying to say is, that submissive women with "borderline personality disorders" can find happiness with a strong, caring and very patient Dominant and that therapy/counselling would be helpful in making the relationship work..

 

[Blushing Bottom]

Good/Ill fit who would have guessed that having a multifaceted personality would lead to BDSM?

We all, both Dominants and submissives have traits the narcissistic, anti-social, histrionic, borderline, which by the way is the old “as if” diagnosis of one so personality disordered they are nearly psychotic. Today’s clinicians want to have the borderline diagnosis changed from an Axis 2 diagnosis to an Axis 1 placing it in as part of the psychosis continuum, but I digress here.

BDSM & D/s is as old as the Adam & Eve. It is society, which has made it taboo and encouraging those who have a propensity to express any such behaviors to seek psychiatric help. If I could only share with you all that I know after the many years in the field of Forensic Psychiatry about the clinicians I have worked with and some of their propensities.

Bottom line people and to quote the DSM-4 is that a personality trait/flaw etc is only a problem when it interferes with the individual’s ability to “… love, work and play” to quote Freud. So if you’re thinking there is something WRONG with you because you get pleasure from any of the aspects of BDSM or D/S, assess its power in you life and your ability to function before considering seeking professional help.

…and that is all I have to say about that.

 

[FurryFury]

I just wanted to pass along a word of encouragement to you. As the mother of two daughters - 24 and 21 - I just want to say - the longer you can roll with the punches and pick your fights carefully - the better off you'll be. Teens do grow up to be the most awesome people! Its true!

Thanks Crazybbwgirl!

I am not cut out for this kind of thing at all. The teen thing I mean. I was doing pretty good until then in spite of some of the challenges. The problem now is I worry so much about her future and just want her to be happy. That is something she pretty much refuses to be.

She gets nihilistic and doesn't care about anything or anyone. It leaves me with few levers to pull to bring her back to being functional. I'm too damned nice and flexible too I think. I've never wanted to be in charge and that is a parenting failure IMO.

I can get distance from just about anyone or anything except my kids. I carry those hopes and fears in my heart with me all the time, turning them over in my head search for ways to help them make everything okay.

I need to stop all that somehow and just, oh, I don't know! *grr*

Anyway, thanks for the kind words and encouragement!

Fury

In my opinion any well socialized woman raised in the society I was raised in is going to be this way.

Having a "central developmental trait of social responsiveness leading to sensitivity to others' expectation, needs, and emotions, and ultimately to becoming an adult people pleaser with an external locus of control."

If they don't they were raised in a radically different environment than I was. I'm not just talking about the nuclear family here or early childhood caregivers, I mean the whole society in which they were raised.

So I see this as NOT something you were born with and not just something that submissives might have but as at least predominantly an environmental thing pushed on females. I suspect newer generations might be getting this message less firmly embedded within them. I'm not sure if that would be a good thing or not.

Conversely I do believe the way we are sexually wired is at least partly inborn. I don't believe being into D/s denotes any mental illness at all. I believe and I'd like to see some serious studies show this that just as many 'nilla people have had sexual or psychological trauma and disorders as those into the kinky arts. In the absence of such studies. I will believe what I wish!

Fury

Good/Ill fit who would have guessed that having a multifaceted personality would lead to BDSM?

We all, both Dominants and submissives have traits the narcissistic, anti-social, histrionic, borderline, which by the way is the old “as if” diagnosis of one so personality disordered they are nearly psychotic. Today’s clinicians want to have the borderline diagnosis changed from an Axis 2 diagnosis to an Axis 1 placing it in as part of the psychosis continuum, but I digress here.

BDSM & D/s is as old as the Adam & Eve. It is society, which has made it taboo and encouraging those who have a propensity to express any such behaviors to seek psychiatric help. If I could only share with you all that I know after the many years in the field of Forensic Psychiatry about the clinicians I have worked with and some of their propensities.

Bottom line people and to quote the DSM-4 is that a personality trait/flaw etc is only a problem when it interferes with the individual’s ability to “… love, work and play” to quote Freud. So if you’re thinking there is something WRONG with you because you get pleasure from any of the aspects of BDSM or D/S, assess its power in you life and your ability to function before considering seeking professional help.

…and that is all I have to say about that.

BB!

You have some very smart things to say here. Thank you for posting this! I particularly like and agreed with the part I bolded. Wow, I'm agreeing with Freud, that doesn't happen often, let me tell you.

*hugs*

Fury

 

[cati]

in addition:

Bottom line people and to quote the DSM-4 is that a personality trait/flaw etc is only a problem when it interferes with the individual’s ability to “… love, work and play” to quote Freud. So if you’re thinking there is something WRONG with you because you get pleasure from any of the aspects of BDSM or D/S, assess its power in you life and your ability to function before considering seeking professional help.

Absolutely BB.


Sunnydawn had posted a question in an earlier thread asking: "Would someone with a mental disorder be able to find a caring Dominant within the lifestyle". She seemed to have some very real concerns in that regard.

Many of us who read her post gave her our opinions on the subject. Sunny didn't offer any more information about herself nor was it our place to ask, so we don't know the extent of her "problem" or where she sees herself in the article's descriptions. She can only offer that information herself, should she choose to. From what I have gathered from my brief conversations with her, she would rather not.
Being submissive and practicing BDSM is no reason for "anyone" to seek therapy, as one situation really has nothing to do with the other. Just as Blushing Bottom stated earlier...it is only when "a mental/emotional illness interferes with our day to day lives, work and relationships with others that an individual should seek counselling.

I sincerely hope that my post in particular, didn't offend or cause anyone upset.
Again my opinions are only that...opinions.

 

[shy slave]

BB, FF & Cati I think you all make very relevant points, I hope Sunnydawn is following her thread

DSM-4 is a measuring tool for medical people to catagorise clients for a variety of reasons. It has its uses but it also (like any measurement tool, that deals with people) has flaws.

DSM-4 and the article both try to make the boxes fit. They try in slightly different ways but the end result is the same, which box fits you?
People rarely fit into outlines, regardless of how subjective the guidance for those outlines are.

Finding BDSM, realising this may be a part of you can be terrifying and a difficult thing to come to terms with.
Society often disagrees with BDSM, (look at the recent thread on the husband in Iowa arrested for kidnapping and the contract he drew up) sometimes society is right to be wary, There are some strange people out there who can cause physical or mental harm to others.

How easy it would be to say that people who admit they are into BDSM are not like that, a BDSM 'us and them hierarchy' but its not like that either. People sometimes hide behind BDSM for their own multi-faceted reasons. Other people would say they are never into BDSM but have tried, blindfolds, silk scarves etc.

Think back to when you first found out about all of this, the range of emotions from relief, excitment, anticiapation to fear, disgust, personal loathing as you try and balance who you are, where you fit into this and yet continue to live in a world where its not the 'norm' to want a part of BDSM activities

We look at tick lists to find the right boxes to catagorise ourselves and in the beginning we may have clear ideas of how far is too far, but as we change, explore discover we have moments of wondering how far would we go.

I know I wondered if I was mad, a pervert, would suddenly lust for sacrifical virgins to whip and beat or would I start to find things that I once found abhorrent, acceptable.

I am often more surprised by people who are new to BDSM who say what their inner thoughts are than those who post little and semi lurk.

I came here because I wanted to understand specific things that I could understand, for example what does a St Andrews Cross look like, what is a flogger; my posts changed and I asked about more subjective things like punishment and pain.
I didn't share my thoughts that I may need psych help or I was scared of myself and the thoughts I had. There continue to be things I don't share here and I am almost sure I am not alone in that.

We talk very openly here, many have talked of their self-harming, their mental or physical issues and how they affect their life not just their BDSM life.

I hope that Sunnydawn and other people who semi-lurk will one day speak out and know that we are supportive as many of us have had mental health crisis in some form, but if they don't, I hope they at least find that they don't need therapy just because they have BDSM thoughts that don't fit into specific stylised boxes.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

sacrificial virgins...

 

[Mr. Mann]

uh..... WOW!

Thanks to sunnydawn for posting the link to this. I hadn't seen it yet.

It's good food for thought for me as I am deeply interested in the fundamental drives and issues at play in the wide variances of D/s, especially pertaining to gender roles and expectations; self-image; etc. etc.

Blushing Bottom,

Intelligence is so drop dead sexy! I love the insights and perspective you bring to things. I look forward to your posts. (Your avatar is just plain yummy, too.)

BTW, here's one of my favorite and moe esoteric jokes that I hope you might appreciate:

Q: "The language often fails us. Have you read Freud in the original German?"

A: "Uh, no. I haven't"

Q: "The translation lacks a certain jejung."

HA! I crack myself up! (Sorry. I'm SUCH a dork, sometimes. )

 

[david_mac0021]

An interesting take on things. One line in particular really struck me:

"IF HER PATHOLOGY IS NOT SO DAMAGING AS TO PRECLUDE LONG-TERM RELATIONSHIPS AT ALL, SHE CAN BE HELD BY A DOMINANT MAN LONG ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMATIC ASPECTS OF HER DEVELOPMENT AND FUNCTIONING..."

I myself have been finding that I approach most relationships, and especially D/s, in this manner as a sort of 'rescuing' complex... Rather, I should say, I did ... The dynamic was unhealthy, and I am much more careful about how I approach these things now. And quite happy, I may add (though it was awkward, for sure).

And Mr. Mann, you're not the only dork in here. I laughed my ass off at that joke. Oh well.

- Mac

 

[sunnydawn]

well i dont know what to say:

yes i do lurk, but i have reasons: biggest reason is you all have your own problems to deal with why should i bother you with mine?
i have to be careful what i say, and i dont think i have anything to offer to this board so i just read.

i dont feel i should post anything more about my situation because its a long story and i wouldnt know where to start or know how to shorten it.

thank you for your thoughts i have been following the thread although some of the replies i dont understand.

sunnydawn

 

[Blushing Bottom]

You can PM.

well i dont know what to say:

yes i do lurk, but i have reasons: biggest reason is you all have your own problems to deal with why should i bother you with mine?
i have to be careful what i say, and i dont think i have anything to offer to this board so i just read.

i dont feel i should post anything more about my situation because its a long story and i wouldnt know where to start or know how to shorten it.

thank you for your thoughts i have been following the thread although some of the replies i dont understand.

sunnydawn

 

[Blushing Bottom]

uh..... WOW!

Thanks to sunnydawn for posting the link to this. I hadn't seen it yet.

It's good food for thought for me as I am deeply interested in the fundamental drives and issues at play in the wide variances of D/s, especially pertaining to gender roles and expectations; self-image; etc. etc.

Blushing Bottom,

Intelligence is so drop dead sexy! I love the insights and perspective you bring to things. I look forward to your posts. (Your avatar is just plain yummy, too.)

BTW, here's one of my favorite and moe esoteric jokes that I hope you might appreciate:

Q: "The language often fails us. Have you read Freud in the original German?"

A: "Uh, no. I haven't"

Q: "The translation lacks a certain jejung."

HA! I crack myself up! (Sorry. I'm SUCH a dork, sometimes. )

 

[shy slave]

well i dont know what to say:

yes i do lurk, but i have reasons: biggest reason is you all have your own problems to deal with why should i bother you with mine?
i have to be careful what i say, and i dont think i have anything to offer to this board so i just read.

i dont feel i should post anything more about my situation because its a long story and i wouldnt know where to start or know how to shorten it.

thank you for your thoughts i have been following the thread although some of the replies i dont understand.

sunnydawn

Everyone has something to offer the boards.

Look forward to seeing your views on things when you feel the time is right

 

[sunnydawn]

original website

the original website where i found this article is back up.

i believe there is a lot of good content to be read and am posting the link

hopfully it will not go down again

Submissivewomenspeak

good wishes to all
sunnydawn

 

[mitchell67]

re: gratitude

I want to thank you for making me aware that this site is back up. I had come across it a few years back and then given up on it when the link went dead.

 

[Pure]

yaldah tovah is a 'big gun' and very familiar with SM, and involvement in one form of it.

i think it's eminently worth trying to describe a 'healthy submissive', since many clinicians doubt that combo can exist. 'we' should support such efforts to push the envelope. remember there was a time when the label 'mentally healthy gay person' was doubted ever to apply.

As to her categorization of routes to nonhealthy submissiveness, it seems a bit schematic. "Lack of fit" is a wide ranging term and likely could be found in the histories of all kinds of different neurotic or seriously fucked up people--- and some who turned out OK.

YT is very much worth reading and thinking about, IMO.