The truth about Ukraine

[mayfly13]

America is losing its geo-imperialistic war to Russia's imperialism, who is slowly conquering and russifying Southern Ukraine. Kherson, for example is now using the rouble and has an Admin. body in Russia.

As it intended from the start, Kyiv being a distraction. If they control the seaside coast, they control everything. Russia will never contend itself to be a former empire, nor will France, Hungary andof course the US. Germany and England seem to have given up on it, they are just doing what the US says.​

America will declare "victory' because Russia 'didn't conquer Kyi'v, and this war will continue for 4-5 years or will morph into a cold war.
This war by proxy also sparked old imperialistic rivalries between France and Germany.

More people are getting fed up with the clumsy manipulation by the requisitioned global massmedia. ("we're only in it for to Ukraine") I don't think that people like oggbashan and Rightguide (who are actually nice people individually) still tout that meme out of ignorance . They're 're doing it out of patriotism, as they see themselves as citizens of former and wannabe great empires.



How do YOU guys interpret what's really going on?

 

[mayfly13]

Of couse there are the internal US dynamics of which I haven't read as much.
Some US corporations are profiteering from wars, others are losing huge amounts of money. And how do these wars serve the US overall?

Trump versus Biden: do the political factions that they represent have different views on the war? Or similar views? I think the latter, from browsing Fox news I sensed, underneath their anti-Biden propaganda, a similar warmongering spirit.

 

[pecksniff]

Russia will never contend itself to be a former empire, nor will France

I should think the French have gotten used to the idea since they lost Algeria.

 

[mayfly13]

LupusDei:
I'm not being dismissive of Russia's breach of a country's sovereignty & war crimes,nor of the plight of Eastern European (Baltic, Central and Balkanic) states, for whom Russia has always been an existential threat.

The focus of this thread is The West (in particular America) versus Russia.

 

[mayfly13]

I should think the French have gotten used to the idea since they lost Algeria.

don't know much History tbh, but that's what they say online. That Macron is now drafting stuff & trying to re-envision EU, with a bigger imperial -by proxy- role of France.

 

[IsItBad]

America is losing its geo-imperialistic war to Russia's imperialism, who is slowly conquering and russifying Southern Ukraine. Kherson, for example is now using the rouble and has an Admin. body in Russia.

As it intended from the start, Kyiv being a distraction. If they control the seaside coast, they control everything. Russia will never contend itself to be a former empire, nor will France, Hungary andof course the US. Germany and England seem to have given up on it, they are just doing what the US says.​

America will declare "victory' because Russia 'didn't conquer Kyi'v, and this war will continue for 4-5 years or will morph into a cold war.
This war by proxy also sparked old imperialistic rivalries between France and Germany.

More people are getting fed up with the clumsy manipulation by the requisitioned global massmedia. ("we're only in it for to Ukraine") I don't think that people like oggbashan and Rightguide (who are actually nice people individually) still tout that meme out of ignorance . They're 're doing it out of patriotism, as they see themselves as citizens of former and wannabe great empires.



How do YOU guys interpret what's really going on?

the most interesting aspect of it all is how so many Americans and really people all over jump on the bandwagon to support the poor Ukraine
just yesterday, the Ukraine harbored a good many of the American haters and one world orderers anyone who knew would have considered our arch enemies
but now we love them all and should send half our groceries

more to the actual question though: we fight these proxy wars all over where we manipulate whoever as if we are still fighting with our righteous might for the great cause when in fact we are as fucked up if not more so than the very govt we are trying to topple. the sad reality is, we ought to tend to our own business which we are not tending to at all, and focus on our own problems. instead, we are now playing the UFO card which is the greatest recent indicator of the underhanded tactics actually going on in the back room. we don't now nor will ever know exactly who all needed killing in the Ukraine or why its playing out this way. the one thing you can take to the bank is that before its over it will have cost the american tax payer hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars. of course, we will just print up trillions more since no one understands the relationship between the dollar in their pocket and the ones being run off on the press. interesting how up through 2019 the fed had approx 4 trillion in dollars bouncing around and today its more like 9 trillion....2 years post the implant install and the monetary basis for this country has doubled while the actual value has diminished drastically. fact check all that zuck.

 

[ll74]

we don't now nor will ever know exactly who all needed killing in the Ukraine

There are people who needed to be killed? Why is that, exactly?

 

[pecksniff]

LupusDei:
I'm not being dismissive of Russia's breach of a country's sovereignty & war crimes,nor of the plight of Eastern European (Baltic, Central and Balkanic) states, for whom Russia has always been an existential threat.

The focus of this thread is The West (in particular America) versus Russia.

In that case, no reasonable person should hesitate to side with The West (in particular America) versus Russia.

 

[pecksniff]

just yesterday, the Ukraine harbored a good many of the American haters and one world orderers anyone who knew would have considered our arch enemies

One world orderers are not our enemies. We should all be one world orderers.

 

[pecksniff]

don't know much History tbh, but that's what they say online. That Macron is now drafting stuff & trying to re-envision EU, with a bigger imperial -by proxy- role of France.

Viva la France, then.

 

[stxjimmy]

don't know much History tbh

Obviously

 

[LupusDei]

First of, people have agency. It's utterly fucked up and ignorant to reduce number of players in this game we call world to few, even if powerful. Sure, said suveineir agency of people can at times be abused and manipulated, as it often acts on myths and isn't entirely rational.

But this in not the case U.S. had invested in such considerably. In Russo-Ukrainian war, U.S. is merely an interested bystander. It could even be said dragged into it unexpectedly, however... $$ spent on hastening Ukrainian victory is both cheap and exceptionally efficient investment in U.S. self interests on so many levels it's hard to comprehend anyone could argue otherwise in good faith.

It's not to say the war itself be directly profitable for U.S, it probably isn't, and it's no "opportunity" worth to manufacture beforehand, even if certain outcomes could be advantageous down the line, longterm. Equally, certain current processes and some possible outcomes are unfavorable and unacceptable. For one, global food supply crisis is all but guaranteed to drive up immigration in U.S. and I have seen arguments some such effects can manifest very soon and very close -- think Mexico.

Then there's the philosophical questions, as much as some would like to argue that ideas don't matter, they do, and in this war the sides are crystal clear with minimal effort.

So, U.S. taking the Ukraine's side is so natural the misconception that they might have wanted this war is almost excusable.

 

[stxjimmy]

just yesterday, the Ukraine harbored a good many of the American haters and one world orderers anyone who knew would have considered our arch enemies
but now we love them all and should send half our groceries.

WTF is this

 

[ll74]

It's unreal the number of threads, aimed at the exact same discussion, that are created in this forum.

 

[pecksniff]

This war by proxy also sparked old imperialistic rivalries between France and Germany.

I haven't heard the two express any disagreement about the war.

 

[ishtat]

Even if Russia does succeed in gaining territory or some other hegemony over all or part Ukraine, the only long term achievement will be a long, a very very long term terrorist movement. Motivated Ukrainians will be assassinating Russian leaders for the next 100 years. Even the Churches have taken sides; it'll make Ireland look like a picnic.

 

[mayfly13]

the most interesting aspect of it all is how so many Americans and really people all over jump on the bandwagon to support the poor Ukraine
just yesterday, the Ukraine harbored a good many of the American haters and one world orderers anyone who knew would have considered our arch enemies
but now we love them all and should send half our groceries

don't know much about that.
Would you mind elaborating?


The only dodgy things I knew about were these:

1. Brett Terrant, the mass shooter went to Ukraine to learn far-right ideology from the Azov batallion. And that, as seen on some youtube news, one of those from te steelplant, whom Zelensky ordered to capitulate had a swastika & Hitler's image on his arm.
Zelensky DID try to retract the Ukrainian army from Donbas (better lose territories than have war, the popullation elected him because he promissed to try for peace) but the Azov batallion opposed him.

2. Ukrainian billionaires
Nobody asked them to pay a dime to rebuild their country, only you guys and EU laypeople do, and the Ukrainian govt who borrowed money that will be paid by their taxpayers.
It's a slap in the face of layUkrainians who are dying or are being displaced, cause those billionaires made their fortunes on their backs, Ukraine being the most corrupt country in Europe.
Nor do any other American billionaires pay for helping against Russia. You guys do, from your taxes.

. interesting how up through 2019 the fed had approx 4 trillion in dollars bouncing around and today its more like 9 trillion....2 years post the implant install and the monetary basis for this country has doubled while the actual value has diminished drastically. fact check all that zuck.

wow. this too
pls. elaborate?

 

[mayfly13]

First of, people have agency. It's utterly fucked up and ignorant to reduce number of players in this game we call world to few, even if powerful. Sure, said suveineir agency of people can at times be abused and manipulated, as it often acts on myths and isn't entirely rational.

But this in not the case U.S. had invested in such considerably. In Russo-Ukrainian war, U.S. is merely an interested bystander. It could even be said dragged into it unexpectedly, however... $$ spent on hastening Ukrainian victory is both cheap and exceptionally efficient investment in U.S. self interests on so many levels it's hard to comprehend anyone could argue otherwise in good faith.

It's not to say the war itself be directly profitable for U.S, it probably isn't, and it's no "opportunity" worth to manufacture beforehand, even if certain outcomes could be advantageous down the line, longterm. Equally, certain current processes and some possible outcomes are unfavorable and unacceptable. For one, global food supply crisis is all but guaranteed to drive up immigration in U.S. and I have seen arguments some such effects can manifest very soon and very close -- think Mexico.

Then there's the philosophical questions, as much as some would like to argue that ideas don't matter, they do, and in this war the sides are crystal clear with minimal effort.

So, U.S. taking the Ukraine's side is so natural the misconception that they might have wanted this war is almost excusable.

true, short-term America seems to be losing more money than earning,
even if pockets like the militaryindustrial compex and Wall street speculators are getting rich from the carnage.

But long-term, America HAD an interest to prolong the war instead of brokering a peace. Russia is fed up with being second player, and it gave the veto to other empires to contest US's hegemony.

I'm talking clinically like they think. For none of the empires in History it was ever about civilians killed on the ground. They're using them just to obtain consensus from us the "unwashed" masses.
It's just coincidence that for now, America is on the side of the oppressed or wronged.

Even if Russia does succeed in gaining territory or some other hegemony over all or part Ukraine, the only long term achievement will be a long, a very very long term terrorist movement. Motivated Ukrainians will be assassinating Russian leaders for the next 100 years. Even the Churches have taken sides; it'll make Ireland look like a picnic.

could be

but then, how were Russians and others able to control their populations in former Soviet countries for so long?
That the 1980's 1989-1990 popular movements spontaneously toppled the USSR is bullshit. They were Allowed to, and occasionally engineered to happen thanks to Gorbatchev.
And how come so many millions of Ukrainians died from Stalin's famine, without a terrorist movement?

Russian 20th century colonization machine in neighbouring territories was just as efficient as the British one used to be in brown counties.
Even now, they started a russification process in conquered territories: mayors replaced, curriculum changed, Russian passports issued. And it will be easier because Ukrainians learned about Russian writers in school and many know Russian language.

 

[pecksniff]

But long-term, America HAD an interest to prolong the war instead of brokering a peace. Russia is fed up with being second player, and it gave the veto to other empires to contest US's hegemony.

That would not give America an interest to prolong the war.

 

[Sugar Baby Wanted]

Of couse there are the internal US dynamics of which I haven't read as much.
Some US corporations are profiteering from wars, others are losing huge amounts of money. And how do these wars serve the US overall?

Trump versus Biden: do the political factions that they represent have different views on the war? Or similar views? I think the latter, from browsing Fox news I sensed, underneath their anti-Biden propaganda, a similar warmongering spirit.

Trump had 4 years of world peace. Zero conflicts because they sere scared shit of him.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Trump had 4 years of world peace. Zero conflicts because they sere scared shit of him.

Can you say Syria or Afghanistan for starters? While it is true, no new conflicts were started under Trump's presidency, the world was not at peace. You stating so just makes you look more the idiot.

 

[ll74]

Trump had 4 years of world peace. Zero conflicts because they sere scared shit of him.

It was not world peace, no matter how many times you say it. If you believe your words, it's because the world exists inside your head.

 

[LupusDei]

That would not give America an interest to prolong the war.

You must understand that "prolong the war" is used as euphemism for "any possibility to support Ukraine so they could actually defend itself or even win" usually not in good faith.

 

[ll74]

You must understand that "prolong the war" is used as euphemism for "any possibility to support Ukraine so they could actually defend itself or even win" usually not in good faith.

Yah, the phrasing on propaganda is insane.

The war is Russia taking over a so seeing country. Winning means they did, losing means they didn't.

 

[LupusDei]

It's unreal the number of threads, aimed at the exact same discussion, that are created in this forum.

Russian propaganda is relentless. And they have long ago hijacked the "anti-imperialism" (whereas the only "imperialism" is understood to come from U.S.) debate.