The subject is ambiguity...

[Esclava]

This thread is in lieu of PMing all those who made my list from the "Things a sub should NEVER say to her Dom" thread. If you're here, thank you for being interested enough in my opinion to come have a look.

I have to say I laughed my ass off through most of that "Grammar Police" segment. Unfortunately, I have real issues with some of the following. Portions from the original thread are in italics and my additions are in royal blue, regular font:

Their - Belongs to individual or several individuals - 'This is their coat, these are their coats. There is not a plural for their it is the wording prior to 'their' that gives you the clue as to whether it is one person or more than one.

There - refers to a place or object that is not owned - The sea is over there, There are many things to look at. [color=royal blue]–This usage doesn’t fit any of the definitions in Merriam-Webster online.[/color]

They're - shortened version[color=royal blue] (contraction)[/color] of “they are” - referring to people or objects - They're in the sink, They're shopping with friends.

1. Who does this butt plug belong to?
It is theirs (single person)

[color=royal blue]In this instance, the question asks about the person(s) who claim(s) ownership. In the response, “It is theirs” - just because the subject pronoun is singular doesn’t necessarily mean the object (theirs) is singular. The response is ambiguous because the subject pronoun refers to the item being discussed not the person to whom it belongs. You understand what is said because it is a widely accepted response; but a less ambiguous response - to denote a singular person - might be: “It is his/hers.” [/color]

2. Who do these whips belong to?
They are theirs (more than one person)

[color=royal blue]Same difference…Just because the subject is plural, doesn’t always mean the object is plural. Again, you understand what is meant; but a less confusing response – to denote more than one person - might be: “They belong to them”, or “They belong to AAssassin and Sir_W.”[/color]

3. Which way to the dungeon?
Turn right, go down the stairs and it is there.

[color=royal blue]Location, location, location – this one is correct, although still a little fuzzy.[/color]

4. Where are the nipple clamps?
They're in the toy box.

[color=royal blue]Why not say, “They’re in there?” Because adding the object, the toy box, clarifies the location and answers the question.

When using pronouns to answer questions, one should be cognizant to ANSWER the question asked. The above responses are vague and do not answer the questions in examples 1 and 2. IMO, one should always take care when using pronouns to respond to questions – most of the time, they only lead to more questions for clarity.

And what about this – “Whose nipple clamps are these? They’re theirs, but go in there with theirs.” OMG, the ambiguity……[/color]

Esclava
Edited to move my name to where it is supposed to be when I sign a piece of work - at the end! Tyvm.

 

[graceanne]

My eyes are doing that cartoon thing again. I'm remembering why I hate school.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

ROFLMAO! Esclava, you are great!

You spent - what, 30 minutes to an hour? more? - precious time to develop your exposition aimed at literate adults who (apparently) find reading and writing a pleasure, to try to help them get it right... at least more of the time, if not all the time. {Note: Before anyone gets insulted, the their/there/they're trichotomy is well up in the most common writing errors for educated Americans. This is most emphatically not a slap at any of you!}

Now, imagine trying to explain the differences between and the proper usages of those three words to inner-city high school sophomores of all races in a major metropolitan area. Sophomores who for the most part could care less about writing anything more complex than a bank holdup note (and would probably get that wrong) and read, on average, at a late-fourth to early-fifth grade level.

Add to that a noticeable fraction of each class being composed of ESL (English as a Second Language) students, and try to encourage this disparate group of students to read - and understand - a short paragraph containing the following words: cough, rough, sough, slough, though, thorough, enough. Try to get them to comprehend to, too and two; or how "read" and "reed," and "read" and "red" (depending on the tense of the first word of each pair) can be homonymic pairs (sound alike).

They say that English is the most difficult Western language to master, because it is largely comprised of "imported" words from almost every (every?) other Western language, plus its roots from Latin, Olde English, Saxon, Celt, Norman and the Scandinavian tongues. Is it any wonder that a majority of well-educated people in this country (1) have trouble writing in their native tongue, and (2) know no other language?

=============

Brain-teaser: What English word changes its meaning, pronunciation and part of speech when it is capitalized? As far as I know, it's the only word in English that does so.

 

[Esclava]

ROFLMAO! Esclava, you are great!

You spent - what, 30 minutes to an hour? more? - precious time to develop your exposition aimed at literate adults who (apparently) find reading and writing a pleasure, to try to help them get it right... at least more of the time, if not all the time. <snip>
Brain-teaser: What English word changes its meaning, pronunciation and part of speech when it is capitalized? As far as I know, it's the only word in English that does so.

Why, thank you Sir!

It was about 30 mins and actually took longer to write so it felt "PC". I hate insulting intelligent people (as you so delicately pointed out) - but I have no problem expressing how I REALLY feel.

As far as your Brain Teaser ... I'll have to think about that. I'm sure I've come across or seen it...but it is not making an appearance in my brain right now.

I'll check in tomorrow. Thanks!

Esclava

 

[Kajira Callista]

heh i know an answer but i dont know if its THE answer.

 

[graceanne]

I think the answer is 'I'.

 

[Kajira Callista]

reading...Reading
polish...Polish
lima ...Lima
there are more but its late and i need my bed

 

[Netzach]

English is hard, but I can't imagine how anyone ever spoke Latin.

Latin is a dead tongue
dead as dead can be
first it killed the Romans
now it's killing me

 

[graceanne]

Hey, where's snowy! She was all bummed about not getting punctuated!

 

[snowy ciara]

I was at a venison bbq! (that's what all the "the Mighty Huntress" thing in kat's sig line is about)

Reading. It's pronounced "RED ing" when it's a place name, (think Reading Railroad in Monopoly.) and it's capitalised too. I'm thinking you all know when it's a verb.

Hee. A friend PM'd me with an internet punctuation rule. "Whenever someone responds to a message and corrects the grammar or spelling in the original, it's almost certain to another error in it."

 

[graceanne]

Reading. It's pronounced "RED ing" when it's a place name, (think Reading Railroad in Monopoly.) and it's capitalised too. I'm thinking you all know when it's a verb.

Really? I didn't know that, we always pronounce it the same as a verb. Hm.

Hee. A friend PM'd me with an internet punctuation rule. "Whenever someone responds to a message and corrects the grammar or spelling in the original, it's almost certain to another error in it."

lol, I think that qualifies as karma

 

[Esclava]

Really? I didn't know that, we always pronounce it the same as a verb. Hm.

It's the same as Reading, PA. Dont know if that's the word Sir_W is looking for, but it fits the criteria listed. Thanks!

'Hee. A friend PM'd me with an internet punctuation rule. "Whenever someone responds to a message and corrects the grammar or spelling in the original, it's almost certain to another error in it." '

lol, I think that qualifies as karma

Methinks so, too! roflmaothen RUNS back to her original post to check for errors...

Esclava

 

[Vixandra]

Proper punctuation and spelling are difficult things for some of us.
Myself included... very much so included.
Couldn't spell my way out of a paper bag.

Still- that's quite nifty, Esclava. Thank you.

 

[FungiUg]

I know that a great deal of thought has gone into different ways to resolve the ambiguities of the english grammar. I haven't seen any particularly good resolutions though.

Part of the use of the pluralised forms is to resolve gender issues. For example, the use of "theirs" doesn't imply a gender, whereas "his/hers" is just damned awkward to read, and "his" as they all encompassing language gender is sexist. So we work around one issue with the language and in the process, introduce another.

It's a funnly old language...

 

[Sir_Winston54]

Methinks KC wins the prize with three valid answers. *hauls out tarnished gold-colored medallion left over from 1987 Mardi Gras*

The word I originally had in mind was "polish/Polish," the first of course being what KC would use to pretty up her medallion and remove some of the green stuff from it, and the second referring to something from or of Poland. The pairs of "reading/Reading (PA)" and "lima (bean)/Lima (Peru)" (the latter being pronounced "lee-ma") {Note: Lima, OH, is - according to Merriam-Webster - pronounced the same way as the bean. I have no idea how that city's 45,000+/- residents think it's pronounced, however} never came to my mind, though I am familiar with both pairs in different contexts. There may be more. Ya learn somethin' new 'bout every day - but that's what reminds me I'm livin', some days.

*makes mental note to lock "R/reading" and L/lima" into the permanent memory banks*

 

[m wisdom]

... Sophomores who for the most part could care less about writing anything more complex than a bank holdup note (and would probably get that wrong) ...

LOL, reminders me of the movie "The Big Hit" (a comedy) where the kidnapped girl starts pointing out spelling errors in the ransom note to the kidnapper.

... They say that English is the most difficult Western language to master ...

That might be true, but I found it easier to learn the basics in English than in French or German. But that could be because of the teachers as well.

My French and German knowledge only extends to a few sentences, even after studying them both for two years. Language was never my favorite subject

 

[Esclava]

Proper punctuation and spelling are difficult things for some of us.
Myself included... very much so included.
Couldn't spell my way out of a paper bag.

Still- that's quite nifty, Esclava. Thank you.

You're quite welcome, Ma'am! The pleasure to serve is mine, indeed.

As a child, I was driven to learn as much as I could about the intricacies of the English language. It has stood me in good stead ever since. Who was the driving force behind that education, you might ask?

If any of you watch the Cartoon Network, the answer to that question resides in "Foster's Home ..." I had many friends of that ilk, we learned many things together and I loved (still do) every one of them. As valuable as they were to me, it is still a bit difficult to acknowledge them to others of the adult persuasion. Perhaps that is something else I must get past in order to move on ... fodder for another thread, I am sure...

Esclava

 

[FungiUg]

So, I have to ask... when is a minute minute? If you eat a bean, does that make it a has-been bean? Could you bear a bare bear?

The ones that get to my partner are things like...

Moth, mother
Both, bother

 

[Esclava]

<snip> For example, the use of "theirs" doesn't imply a gender, whereas "his/hers" is just damned awkward to read, and "his" as they all encompassing language gender is sexist. <snip>

Exactly, FungiUg, Sir!

"Theirs" neither implies gender nor a singular/plural connotation. So, in order to answer a question - which requests information on a specific person or persons (the "Who" in this case) - correctly, the response must contain information that acknowledges that "Who". And IMO (please correct me if I'm wrong), the "Who" in many topics of conversation has a gender and the expression of it is a sign of respect.

You know what? Even "BITCH" is an expression of gender... Personally, I prefer B.I.T.C.H., myself, tyvm!

Esclava

 

[Esclava]

So, I have to ask... when is a minute minute? If you eat a bean, does that make it a has-been bean? Could you bear a bare bear?

The ones that get to my partner are things like...

Moth, mother
Both, bother

LOL at the Fungi-One's dilemmas...but never laughing AT the Fungi-One...

Esclava

 

[shy slave]

This thread is in lieu of PMing all those who made my list from the "Things a sub should NEVER say to her Dom" thread. If you're here, thank you for being interested enough in my opinion to come have a look.

I have to say I laughed my ass off through most of that "Grammar Police" segment. Unfortunately, I have real issues with some of the following. Portions from the original thread are in italics and my additions are in royal blue, regular font:

Their - Belongs to individual or several individuals - 'This is their coat, these are their coats. There is not a plural for their it is the wording prior to 'their' that gives you the clue as to whether it is one person or more than one.

There - refers to a place or object that is not owned - The sea is over there, There are many things to look at. [color=royal blue]–This usage doesn’t fit any of the definitions in Merriam-Webster online.[/color]

They're - shortened version[color=royal blue] (contraction)[/color] of “they are” - referring to people or objects - They're in the sink, They're shopping with friends.

1. Who does this butt plug belong to?
It is theirs (single person)

[color=royal blue]In this instance, the question asks about the person(s) who claim(s) ownership. In the response, “It is theirs” - just because the subject pronoun is singular doesn’t necessarily mean the object (theirs) is singular. The response is ambiguous because the subject pronoun refers to the item being discussed not the person to whom it belongs. You understand what is said because it is a widely accepted response; but a less ambiguous response - to denote a singular person - might be: “It is his/hers.” [/color]

2. Who do these whips belong to?
They are theirs (more than one person)

[color=royal blue]Same difference…Just because the subject is plural, doesn’t always mean the object is plural. Again, you understand what is meant; but a less confusing response – to denote more than one person - might be: “They belong to them”, or “They belong to AAssassin and Sir_W.”[/color]

3. Which way to the dungeon?
Turn right, go down the stairs and it is there.

[color=royal blue]Location, location, location – this one is correct, although still a little fuzzy.[/color]

4. Where are the nipple clamps?
They're in the toy box.

[color=royal blue]Why not say, “They’re in there?” Because adding the object, the toy box, clarifies the location and answers the question.

When using pronouns to answer questions, one should be cognizant to ANSWER the question asked. The above responses are vague and do not answer the questions in examples 1 and 2. IMO, one should always take care when using pronouns to respond to questions – most of the time, they only lead to more questions for clarity.

And what about this – “Whose nipple clamps are these? They’re theirs, but go in there with theirs.” OMG, the ambiguity……[/color]

Esclava


Edited to move my name to where it is supposed to be when I sign a piece of work - at the end! Tyvm.

OMG she quoted me!!!!

I have read and re-read the thread and want to say straight off thank you esclava and Sir_W for taking time to go over my response from the other thread.

I do mean that, it is not a 'tongue in cheek' answer, nor be being sarcastic.
felt had to put that in due to some bad feelings about the boards at present

Will also say that i doubt anyone on the boards could manage to offend me simply because whatever i post is up for interpretation/having the mickey taken/further analysis or ignored.
Phew now thats out of the way lol.

Back to esclava's blue bits.

I have not heard of the Merriam-Webster _ what is it?

I printed off my original post and took it to a friend who has a first in English from Cambs. In truth I now wish I hadn't asked.

I thought I knew english *sigh*

He has said that it is considered correct practice to answer a question without ambiguity for example in the butt plug response.
He pointed ou I had unintentionally shortened the english langauge using the form of current common vernacular

He went on to say that whilst my answer would have been considered acceptable when speaking to english people in Enland (or UK) it is not acceptable if trying to explain to people who have english as a second language or those who use American english.

He also said there can be variations due to 'american english' and 'english english' in both the spoken word and spelling.
Most of us are aware of the spelling issues :color and colour for example.

So, for those of you in England (dolph and english vicky step forward lol), my orginal explanation appears to be a reasonable explanation to the there/they're/their conundrumm for all others I will keep my vernacular english examples to myself lolol

I suppose esclava and Sir_W will set homework now lol


I did re-read this, to check for spelling, prior to posting and noticed that I had written esclavas blue nits instead of bits ~ what can I say other than to quote Weird Harold its my fingers that are stupid!

ps I am actually scottish does that get me off the hook???
No I thought not *sigh again* lol

 

[graceanne]

Re: Re: The subject is ambiguity...

OMG she quoted me!!!!

I have read and re-read the thread and want to say straight off thank you esclava and Sir_W for taking time to go over my response from the other thread.

I do mean that, it is not a 'tongue in cheek' answer, nor be being sarcastic.
felt had to put that in due to some bad feelings about the boards at present

Will also say that i doubt anyone on the boards could manage to offend me simply because whatever i post is up for interpretation/having the mickey taken/further analysis or ignored.
Phew now thats out of the way lol.

Back to esclava's blue bits.

I have not heard of the Merriam-Webster _ what is it?

I printed off my original post and took it to a friend who has a first in English from Cambs. In truth I now wish I hadn't asked.

I thought I knew english *sigh*

He has said that it is considered correct practice to answer a question without ambiguity for example in the butt plug response.
He pointed ou I had unintentionally shortened the english langauge using the form of current common vernacular

He went on to say that whilst my answer would have been considered acceptable when speaking to english people in Enland (or UK) it is not acceptable if trying to explain to people who have english as a second language or those who use American english.

He also said there can be variations due to 'american english' and 'english english' in both the spoken word and spelling.
Most of us are aware of the spelling issues :color and colour for example.

So, for those of you in England (dolph and english vicky step forward lol), my orginal explanation appears to be a reasonable explanation to the there/they're/their conundrumm for all others I will keep my vernacular english examples to myself lolol

I suppose esclava and Sir_W will set homework now lol


I did re-read this, to check for spelling, prior to posting and noticed that I had written esclavas blue nits instead of bits ~ what can I say other than to quote Weird Harold its my fingers that are stupid!

ps I am actually scottish does that get me off the hook???
No I thought not *sigh again* lol

man, if i thought my eyes were doing that cartoon thing before, they really are now!

 

[Miss Diva]

Athough I have been using computers for the last 15 years, I am relatively new to online chat rooms (have been on them for about six months).

The first time I was reading the conversation it took a while to figure it all out. What is PYL that I read about on this site. And I have a hard time with the grammar seeing that i am a parttime editor

On another site where I am a regular one of the user writes in CAPITIAL LETTERS ONLY WITH NO PUNCTUATION. She writes paragraphs and paragraphs with no periods nor commas. Needless to say I skip her stuff.

The acronyms are hard to figure out. And many times I wish sites had a place to define acronyms used on that site. And when words are misspelled or misused well that is where the communication breaks down. It does get difficult to read the messages many times.

My two (or too) cents (or sense)

 

[shy slave]

Athough I have been using computers for the last 15 years, I am relatively new to online chat rooms (have been on them for about six months).

The first time I was reading the conversation it took a while to figure it all out. What is PYL that I read about on this site. And I have a hard time with the grammar seeing that i am a parttime editor

On another site where I am a regular one of the user writes in CAPITIAL LETTERS ONLY WITH NO PUNCTUATION. She writes paragraphs and paragraphs with no periods nor commas. Needless to say I skip her stuff.

The acronyms are hard to figure out. And many times I wish sites had a place to define acronyms used on that site. And when words are misspelled or misused well that is where the communication breaks down. It does get difficult to read the messages many times.

My two (or too) cents (or sense)

You need to send Sir_W to that particular site i am sure he can sort the CAPS POSTER OUT

 

[snowy ciara]

Another conundrum that makes me nuts.

One goose is a goose. Multiple gooses are geese.

One moose is a moose. Multiple mooses are not meese, they're still moose.

One mouse is a mouse. Multiple mouses are mice.

One house is a house. Multiple houses are are houses.

Lets have some structure, people!