The 'stimulus' isn't going to work, and why.

[Ishmael]

And your solution is what?

Cutting taxes for the rich?

Trickle down economics in its current bastardiszed form wasnt even what was proposed back in the day. Now its cut taxes for the rich under any dubious circiumstance. Not the the specific circiumstances pointed out by the economists that coined the phrase.

Reducing taxes on the rich does not get a full return via economic boom. You increase deficits and wind up paying obscene amounts of interest on the added deficits.

Creating jobs while getting shit the country needs done anyway completed is the way to go. You have less people in the welfare system, more productivity, and more money flowing through the economy.

Cutting taxes on the highest tax bracket has little bearing on GDP if at all.

Some of the strongest growth in US history was during the 60s when the highest tax bracket was paying 89% effective tax rates.

You cut the taxes on everyone, and capital gains.

It's difficult for me to understand why a tax cut, applied equally across the board to all citizens, is defined as a tax cut for the rich only. Even Kennedy understood that a rising tide lifts all the ships.

It also seems to me that everyone that sings this 'tax break for the rich' mantra ignores the fact that after the Bush tax cuts the wealthy actually paid MORE in taxes as a percentage of all taxes collected. Even Obama acknowledge that fact, but stated that the 'rich' should still pay more because it's 'fair'. Fair to who? At what point did this nation decide that it's 'fair' to punish achievement?

From the standpoint of fiscal balance sheets, there is little difference between massive government spending and tax cuts. In one instance the government goes into debt spending, in the other the government goes into debt by not collecting as much. The difference to the economy is profound though. Leaving more money in the economy causes a greater exchange of money for goods. ie. it stimulates the economy. In the case of the Obama 'stimulus', even the CBO acknowledges that only 50% or so of that money is going to actually reach the economy and most of that won't occur for two years or more. The 'stimulus' package also institutes programs that require even greater government spending in the future. In other words, perpetual debt.

The age group that has the wealth (50+) understands all that. And you can sit and try to blow all the smoke up their ass you want but it isn't going to change the fact that they're pulling out of the economy and the more this congress does to run up the debt on welfare give aways, the faster they're going to pull out of the economy. They've got their ass covered and they really don't care how much you want to fuck yourself, they're not only going to watch you fuck yourself, by pulling out of the economy they're going to hand you the lube to do it with.

Ishmael

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

Simple class warfare...





The funny thing is, it's only one class of rich. Entertainers, ball players, hell, they deserve what they get just like we deserve to be raped to take our date or our family to see them...

In America, they first came for the very rich and I didn't speak up because I wasn't rich," said the Rev. Imadem Doinggood. "Then they came for the Bourgeoisie and I didn't speak up because I wasn't Bourgeois. Then they came for the Upper Middle Class blue-collar workers. I didn't speak up because I was a Government clerk. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak up.

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

This post goes out to Byron-in-Exile who thought I was getting a little stale...

Sales of Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged have almost tripled over the first seven weeks of this year compared with sales for the same period in 2008. This continues a strong trend after bookstore sales reached an all-time annual high in 2008 of about 200,000 copies sold.

“Americans are flocking to buy and read Atlas Shrugged because there are uncanny similarities between the plot-line of the book and the events of our day” said Yaron Brook, Executive Director at the Ayn Rand Center for Individual Rights. “Americans are rightfully concerned about the economic crisis and government’s increasing intervention and attempts to control the economy. Ayn Rand understood and identified the deeper causes of the crisis we’re facing, and she offered, in ‘Atlas Shrugged,’ a principled and practical solution consistent with American values."

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/02/atlas_readies_shrug.html

 

[KingOrfeo]

I actually heard Obama in his speech, we must guide the invisible hand...

No society that has attempted that has survived.

The U.S. government has been guiding the invisible hand since the founding of the Republic, dating at least from the first protective tariffs.

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

No, the tarriffs were to finance the military and courts.





Adam Smith took that into account. It's the Obamanation that believes taxes are a means of justice. Courts are for social engineering.

 

[richard_daily]

No one replied to me

Educated debate isnt wanted here. We can only argue talking points i guess.

Well, to be fair, it IS an ishmale thread.

What did you expect?

 

[mark_j]

And, Obama did specifically say anyone making less than $250,000/year will not see their taxes raised.

Yes he said that.

But as you know corporations and businesses don't actually pay taxes they pass it on to consumers.

So who in the end pays?

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

This post goes out to Byron-in-Exile who thought I was getting a little stale...

Sales of Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged have almost tripled over the first seven weeks of this year compared with sales for the same period in 2008. This continues a strong trend after bookstore sales reached an all-time annual high in 2008 of about 200,000 copies sold.

“Americans are flocking to buy and read Atlas Shrugged because there are uncanny similarities between the plot-line of the book and the events of our day” said Yaron Brook, Executive Director at the Ayn Rand Center for Individual Rights. “Americans are rightfully concerned about the economic crisis and government’s increasing intervention and attempts to control the economy. Ayn Rand understood and identified the deeper causes of the crisis we’re facing, and she offered, in ‘Atlas Shrugged,’ a principled and practical solution consistent with American values."

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/02/atlas_readies_shrug.html

OMG! tripled!!??

You mean they've sold 300 copies instead of the 100 from the previous year?

Did you know that Scientologists kept "Dynanetics" on the best seller lists for years by buying up copies of their own books?

Jus' sayin.

 

[Shugahhhh]

OMG! tripled!!??

You mean they've sold 300 copies instead of the 100 from the previous year?

Did you know that Scientologists kept "Dynanetics" on the best seller lists for years by buying up copies of their own books?

Jus' sayin.

I heard that Joe the Plumber enjoyed Atlas Shrugged sooo much that he passed his copy on to Palin, and he's now half way through The Fountainhead.

Thank god for books on tape.

 

[Sharon_]

Because of ethanol? I agree, but if you get rid of ethanol subsidies farmers will start crying for more regular subsidies.

Like I said: Ethanol subsides = bad,

But regular ag subsidies to farms making over 1/2 mil. per year = good?

Farmers aren't crying for ethanol subsidies--that's an entirely government manufactured thing.

In general, I agree that farm subsidies are not free market--and it's been wrong for decades--I could tell you stories about my uncle's dairy farm and the price fixing and the monopolized forced sales he endured that would boil your beets; what I'm saying is to yank them away NOW is as stupid as raising taxes--it's going to cause food to go up in price. Yet another domino to add to the stack against those making under $250K/annum.

Especially tough on California farmers as I understand they're having their water supply threatened, which if followed thru on gives them the double whammy and will DRASTICALLY impact our prices at the grocery store.

[I am blessed in that I grow most of my own produce and after this year with the upgrading on my system expect to grow the few things I do buy--like lettuce in the winter]

It seems like not one of our Congress Critters or the President (Obama or Bush) is looking at the big picture--they're tunnel-visioned into their own pet project(s). The Cap & Trade is going to get passed right on down the line and it will be harder on the poor to keep their lights on, buy food at the store or put gas in their car to get to work--and God knows they can't afford to upgrade to one of those spiffy hybrid cars....and what the Feds aren't taxing, the states ARE.

National Sales Tax--and yes, I recognize vettemen's point that it, too, would get passed on to the consumer but it seems the most common sense way to go. Even being charitable, that Geithner is not a tax cheat, if it's too damned complicated for the head of the friggen' IRS to pay his taxes then it needs to go.

Along with a whole passel of laws currently on the books including making felons out of getting caught with a joint twice (my state--5 year prison term, lose your right to vote, bear arms), or landing in the federal pokey for running a home 'still and one of my pet peeves: my city requiring a building permit for a $5 baby's wading pool.

My God--it has gotten that silly. Too many laws, too many taxes and NO ONE with any chance of knowing what they all are and now Congress passing new ones without even reading the damned bill first.

 

[Sharon_]

I'd hate to live without cheese -- but, you know, if it ever comes to that, we don't really need milk; no dairy product is essential to the nutrition of any human over the age of two. No other mammal consumes milk after weaning.

Actually, dairy products is the body's most efficient way of absorbing calcium and Vit.D3--especially important as one gets older as they lose a lot of their ability to absorb it; and also important for those of us in northern latitudes where even in the summer the angle of sunlight for proper manufacture of D3 is off--and non-existant in the winter.

I don't feel like looking up cites, flu in my casa...but they should be easily found. As for no other mammal consuming milk: cats will whenever they can, as will dogs and prolly many other animals; and people aren't other mammals---other mammals don't do lots of things we do, like make our own booze--but they'll happily drink it when they can; the same applies to milk.

 

[The Mutt]

Actually, dairy products is the body's most efficient way of absorbing calcium and Vit.D3--especially important as one gets older as they lose a lot of their ability to absorb it; and also important for those of us in northern latitudes where even in the summer the angle of sunlight for proper manufacture of D3 is off--and non-existant in the winter.

I don't feel like looking up cites, flu in my casa...but they should be easily found. As for no other mammal consuming milk: cats will whenever they can, as will dogs and prolly many other animals; and people aren't other mammals---other mammals don't do lots of things we do, like make our own booze--but they'll happily drink it when they can; the same applies to milk.

Dina Byrnes: I had no idea you could milk a cat.
Greg Focker: Oh yeah, you can milk anything with nipples.
Jack Byrnes: I have nipples, Greg. Could you milk me?

 

[Sharon_]

And more debt is good...that means credit is flowing and other nations are willing to loan us money based on their faith in our system.

When no other countries will loan the USA money because they have no faith in us paying them back...then we are up shit creek.

I heard something on the news last week that if we continue our percentage of debt to GDP that we're in danger of losing our Triple A credit rating by as early as 2012.

I'm not a financial wiz so don't know all the ramifications of that other than it's very BAD....and China is making noises about not wanting to lend us money any more.

The only good thing I can see as far as China is that from a foreign relations standpoint we owe them so much money now that they're afraid to do something Putin-esque to really torque us off in the fear that we'll tell them we aren't gonna pay 'em back.

 

[cjh]

Dina Byrnes: I had no idea you could milk a cat.
Greg Focker: Oh yeah, you can milk anything with nipples.
Jack Byrnes: I have nipples, Greg. Could you milk me?

i cringed and laughed when i saw that scene.

hell, i did through the whole of the movie.

 

[Sharon_]

And? Many new life saving medicines and such have been developed using test mice.

You're pulling my whiskers, right?

These mice we've borrowed 30M to take care of aren't test mice; they're Pelosi's 'salt marsh harvest mouse' that is endangered or wants to be endangered.

BUT THAT IS NOT A PORKY EARMARK EVEN IF SCHUMER SAYS IT IS PORKY AND WE DON'T CARE ABOUT IT ANYWAY CUZ CHUCK SAYS WE DON'T

I don't have a problem with the meeses...I have a problem taking out a 30M loan for them and doing it in an economic stimulus bill that was SUPPOSED to be "timely and targeted". The mice should've gone thru the regular appropriations process on the Omnibus bill along with the other myriad of good causes.

 

[Sharon_]

How about if the government, that collected the sales tax, provided each family with a rebate to cover the tax on basic necessities?

If it can be worked out fairly. I grow a lot of my basic necessities so it really wouldn't be fair for me to receive a rebate the same size as those who do not. Gasoline sales tax: some folks have to drive 90 min. to the doctor or to work, and others do not.

And if they require receipts then some stores are going to have to change their paper cuz the ink on some of our current receipts fades right off the paper after a few months.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

Actually, dairy products is the body's most efficient way of absorbing calcium and Vit.D3--especially important as one gets older as they lose a lot of their ability to absorb it; and also important for those of us in northern latitudes where even in the summer the angle of sunlight for proper manufacture of D3 is off--and non-existant in the winter.

I don't feel like looking up cites, flu in my casa...but they should be easily found. As for no other mammal consuming milk: cats will whenever they can, as will dogs and prolly many other animals; and people aren't other mammals---other mammals don't do lots of things we do, like make our own booze--but they'll happily drink it when they can; the same applies to milk.

Actually, the majority of adult cats are lactose intolerant if I remember correctly.

Dogs will eat their own shit, they aren't the most discerning about what they consume.

 

[Ishmael]

Well, to be fair, it IS an ishmale thread.

What did you expect?

You must really like sucking your own toes.

reply

Ishmael

 

[fl_mike]

Universal heath care and so far the democrat leaders feel the cost will be around 1,000,000,000,000,000. Wtf! If the government thinks the cost will be one trillion dollars, we know that by the time they get around to start the project the cost will triple!

OK, I'm going on the record here with another prognostication. Time will tell whether I'm right or wrong.

The stimulus isn't going to work. As a matter of fact the tack taken by Obama is going to lead to things getting even worse. The only question that remains is how much worse can things get? That answser is easy, the financial bankruptcy of the US is how much worse things can get.

There will be a market run up this summer followed by a retreat in the fall. The run up will be pointed to by the Obamanistas as proof that all is well. I have no idea who they're going to blame the subsequent retreat on. Maybe they'll try to blame that on Bush too. What everyone should be on the look out for is the size of the summer run up. If it's a decent run, then the depths that we will later fall to will not be as deep as would be the case if the summer run up is just a little bump. Because if it's only a little bump, foriegn investors are going to flee our markets and the dollar and if that happens things are going to get seriously ugly.

Before I go into the reasons for this let me be quite clear. It wouldn't have made much difference if McCain had been elected, or Ron Paul or any of the other candidates. The only thing any president could do with regard to what's about to happen would be to implement policy that would only allow things to get 'real bad' as opposed to 'horrible' or 'catastrophic.'

In a nut shell, the baby boomers are picking up their marbles and going home. They trust neither the government nor the markets anymore. The fact of the matter is most of the nations wealth is concentrated in the hands of the baby boomers and they aren't going to play the game anymore. The kids are out of college, their house is paid for, they no longer have to commute so not much driving around and they already have more toys than they want or need. They are moving their money to safe havens now and it's not going to come back. And this is especially true if, as Obama has promised, they're going to be punished for getting back in the game.

It's going to take 10 or more years for the next generation to generate the capital, if they even can or are allowed to, to start the wheels of the economy really moving again.

I wouldn't be looking to the Chinese, or any of the other emerging economies, to pick up the slack. Their economies were based on US consumerism and we aren't going to be doing a lot of consummin' for the foreseeable future.

Obamas rosy budgets are based on a seriously flawed assumption, that being that the capital is going to flow back into the markets and productivity on the high end is going to return to pre Jul. 2008 levels. I got news for you, it isn't. The 55+ crowd is no longer going to put their money at risk and nothing short of wholesale confiscation on the part of the government is going to get that money back into the economy. They aren't going to be paying any taxes to speak of either, all of that burden is going to fall on backs of those that don't have the money to begin with. (That means you in the 25-45 age brackets.) Fiscal realities are going to force that to happen. On top of not paying the taxes anymore, the boomers are going to start feeding off the very systems the government has put in place thereby accelerating the rise in the national debt.

Obama, never having lived in the real world, seems to be quite oblivious to all that is about to happen and is putting in place spending programs and policies that are going to make matters considerably worse. There is no ammount of spending on the part of the government that can change the economy. Primarily because ALL government dollars come out of the economy to begin with. Government spending actually shrinks the economy. There is no law that can be passed or tax levied that is going to prevent humans from reacting in the interests of self-preservation and that includes the wholesale flight of capital and producers from this nation to places a little more friendly.

So there it is folks. I'm calling it 10 years of a shit economy even with the government enacting sound fiscal policy. If the government doesn't, then it's going to be even worse than a shit economy.

Ishmael

 

[The Mutt]

Universal heath care and so far the democrat leaders feel the cost will be around 1,000,000,000,000,000. Wtf! If the government thinks the cost will be one trillion dollars, we know that by the time they get around to start the project the cost will triple!

That's right! Just look at the statistics that show that Medicare spends about 2% of its budget on administrative costs, while the typical HMO spends 9%.

Wait a minute. That doesn't show you to be right at all. In fact, it shows that you are just making shit up! Pulling numbers right out of your ass to support an ideology.

Facts are like kryptonite to you Republican'ts, aren't they?

http://thomas.loc.gov/medicare/robinstest.html

 

[fl_mike]

insurance and medical (of any type) are not good examples. I don't have stats, and stats can easily be manupuliated to what you need to sell. What I get my feeling is based on my years of consulting and being forced on some goverment projects.

I like some values from Republicans and some values from Democrats, but any way you look at it both sides will screw you. i only hope for a kiss when they are finished

That's right! Just look at the statistics that show that Medicare spends about 2% of its budget on administrative costs, while the typical HMO spends 9%.

Wait a minute. That doesn't show you to be right at all. In fact, it shows that you are just making shit up! Pulling numbers right out of your ass to support an ideology.

Facts are like kryptonite to you Republican'ts, aren't they?

http://thomas.loc.gov/medicare/robinstest.html

 

[TurdFergeson]

I think I've figured out the entire economic problem:

It all boils down to the IRS and especially the FED.

Throw 'em out!

And get rid of fiat currency!

 

[The Mutt]

Tax the churches!

 

[TurdFergeson]

Tax the churches!

A lot have already been sued for hefty amounts.

 

[fl_mike]

Oh, good idea! What about the casino’s on Indian reservations?

Tax the churches!