The Role of the sub

[lavender]

 

[Marquis]

This topic has particular resonance with me. I have always found myself emotionally and intellectually attracted to assertive and confident women, yet sexually attracted to submissive ones. For a long time I thought I was going to have to choose one or the other, but 3 years ago I met someone who showed me that these qualities where not mutually exclusive.

I think it actually adds a lot to the D/s scenario to have dominance over an otherwise dominant person. Some people are so naturally submissive it feels much less satisfying to be their dom, you feel more like you are just the first guy who came along. I mean, I guess that says a lot about you if you can maintain dominance over someone strong-willed.

 

[lavender]

 

[Soron]

A Perspective

I have always been attracted to strong, intelligent women. Even before I knew what a Dominant or submisive was I was drawn to women who coud take care of themselves so to speak.
Trying to come up with words that describe the feeling I get when an otherwise dominant personality will willingly surrender herself to me, not only sexually, but emotionally as well, is beyond my capabilities. It's something I know is both fulfilling for her and for me.
Talk about a power exchange. All the love and respect that she gives me goes right back to her in my Dominance and I have never been able to describe that to vanilla friends.
I guess that makes me power hungry.
hmmmm....

 

[Soron]

Marquis,

It was so nice to read that post. We seem to have very similar ideas about this whole thing.

I agree with you almost 100%. I cannot truly speak for the D/s type activity. I refer more to top/bottom play. I do find it much more exciting as a woman who is strong to feel such domination. I enjoy both roles, but being controlled is something that sexually excites me much more than having the control. Having the control is too easy, it comes too naturally, it's something that I like to have commanded from me.

I think control or domination in a sexual relationship is analogous to issues of respect. You cannot demand respect - you command respect. You cannot demand control, you command control.

I have been dismayed reading many posts on this board, specifically by Doms. It appears to me, that many of them demand control instead of commanding it. Are you following what I'm saying, or am I being too ambiguous?

I brought this thread to the forefront tonight, because I've noticed a strange trend. In the midst of a small little flamewar, two Doms could only respond to me in basic ways. They called me "little girl", they perceived that I was a Lesbian acting like a bulldyke and compared me to MzChrista. I like MzChrista so I really don't mind the comparison. In response one basically insinuated they would demand the control by making me suck their dick.

I find it disheartening to read such things and find it completely antithetical to any of my personal beliefs, on a sexual or relationship level about top/bottoms or D/s.

excellent post

 

[WillowPuss]

This is a question that is primarily directed toward the Doms on the board. I would like to know what you look for in a sub? I'm not talking about her characteristics in the lifestyle, but how she acts toward other people and other males in particular?

Do you believe a woman who is very aggressive/assertive and opinionated can be a sub? Do you find women who are assertive and stand up for themselves on a regular basis to not be able to fit the role of a sub?

I can clearly see a difference between a D/s relationship and a man who is misogynistic. However, the difference, to me, comes from a man who is a Dom in a sexual sense because it is what excites him, not because of a strong need to be, as a male, superior and the dominator of women. I fear that many Doms in this world fail to differentiate the two.

Have you experienced this? How do you delineate between the two?

lavender, I know you addressed your post mainly to the Dom/mes ... but I hope you don't mind if I join this conversation?

I am a submissive.
I have been told that I am a 'natural submissive' - whatever one of those are.
I have also been told I am 'strong', and am a 'natural leader' - whatever one of those are.

I fully applaud and agree with your comment about having somebody commanding rather than demanding. For all my 'natural' submissiveness, if anyone tries to make me kowtow to them by telling me just how much better they are, or because they are a (little drum roll here) DOM. Try that and I think 'yeah right .. and I'm the queen of England.


Hope you didn't mind too much me adding my voice here?

 

["angel" eve]

switch perspective

hum... personally, i believe in the idea of commanding respect rather than demanding it. in real life i am a dominant person. not much of a leader, but definately assertive and not afraid to say anything i believe.

in D/s i cannot abide by a Dom who would try to inform me that they are Dom, and so i will be submissive. my response is hell no, and a barrage of insults on their intelligence, and their personal psyche. a Dom will ask ME if i wish to be submissive to them, and if i concent, then they may be Dom. if i concent to being sub, that means alot more than if they tried to grab it from me - which can't be done except at gun point.

the goal of a Dom is to convince a sub that the sub wishes to give themself (within certain peramaters in most cases) to that Dom's control. you cannot force this.

-----------------------------
as for people on here seeming to say that they demand respect, as oposed to winning it and commanding it... my personal opinion is this may have been meant in the context of relationships they have been involved in for some time. they know their sub well enough that the line of demand/command becomes blurry in some areas.
my second guess it they were joking around. a doctor may joke about wanting to yank out a patient's lungs because of their asthama, but would they do it, no.
sometimes Dom's define themselves by making a parody of themselves by saying they would do something that they believe only a "bad" Dom would do. it's self-effacing, but it's just a joke.

is this perhaps what you noticed? i'm speaking out of place, and i could be completely wrong, but these are my thoughts.

 

[lovetoread]

.

 

[Grvdigger]

Yes I believe strong and opinionated women can be subs. My gem has very strong opinions and if very self relient. Yet she submits to Me in all areas. She does this cause I have proved to her that when I tell her something it is only after I have put thought in it and have considered what her thoughts would be on the situation. she is one that would just not submit to any Dom that came along. I never make any demands of her just to flex My "Dom muscle" or just to stroke My ego.

I have seen to many subs that are afraid to say what they think to their Doms, and I feel this is a failing in those. We are not mind readers and need input from them to make decisions sometimes. And just because someone has submitted to another does not make that persons opinions less than anothers.

I hope this is what you were looking for.

 

[Lancecastor]

Flamebait.

This whole thread is "Flamebait....New!, by Lavendar", IMHO.

Nice try, Lav...

Cheers;
Lance

Marquis,

It was so nice to read that post. We seem to have very similar ideas about this whole thing.

I agree with you almost 100%. I cannot truly speak for the D/s type activity. I refer more to top/bottom play. I do find it much more exciting as a woman who is strong to feel such domination. I enjoy both roles, but being controlled is something that sexually excites me much more than having the control. Having the control is too easy, it comes too naturally, it's something that I like to have commanded from me.

I think control or domination in a sexual relationship is analogous to issues of respect. You cannot demand respect - you command respect. You cannot demand control, you command control.

I have been dismayed reading many posts on this board, specifically by Doms. It appears to me, that many of them demand control instead of commanding it. Are you following what I'm saying, or am I being too ambiguous?

I brought this thread to the forefront tonight, because I've noticed a strange trend. In the midst of a small little flamewar, two Doms could only respond to me in basic ways. They called me "little girl", they perceived that I was a Lesbian acting like a bulldyke and compared me to MzChrista. I like MzChrista so I really don't mind the comparison. In response one basically insinuated they would demand the control by making me suck their dick.

I find it disheartening to read such things and find it completely antithetical to any of my personal beliefs, on a sexual or relationship level about top/bottoms or D/s.

 

[Azzy]

I, personally, feel that this is a great topic for DISCUSSION.

And, on that note ...

It is entirely possible for an assertive, strong, opinionated woman to be submissive.

I, should even venture, that a person who considers themselves dominate towards a submissive, may not actually be dominate in their everyday lives.

That dominate side of their person may only be directed towards the person/s they choose to dominate.

Those who view everything so black and white are missing out on the rainbow of opportunities existing for them if they just would stop making judgements.

And, that was a general statement, and not directed to anyone on this thread personally.

 

[Ricckk]

I fully agree with that a strong man or woman can be submissive. And also agree that the submission of a strong person is even more meaningful.

I expect my submissive to interact with others with dignity and respect, whether they are male or female, domnant, submissive or vanilla. That does NOT include verbal abuse, name calling or other hassles from "players". Of course, I have the same standards for myself.

 

[zipman]

This topic has particular resonance with me. I have always found myself emotionally and intellectually attracted to assertive and confident women, yet sexually attracted to submissive ones. For a long time I thought I was going to have to choose one or the other, but 3 years ago I met someone who showed me that these qualities where not mutually exclusive.

I think it actually adds a lot to the D/s scenario to have dominance over an otherwise dominant person. Some people are so naturally submissive it feels much less satisfying to be their dom, you feel more like you are just the first guy who came along. I mean, I guess that says a lot about you if you can maintain dominance over someone strong-willed.

I think Marquis said it perfectly! Who wants a doormat to dominate? There is no fun in that. Besides, many very aggressive women want/need domination in their sexual lives. It can provide a level of balance for some that desire it.

 

[MsWorthy]

This is a question that is primarily directed toward the Doms on the board. I would like to know what you look for in a sub? I'm not talking about her characteristics in the lifestyle, but how she acts toward other people and other males in particular?

I am not a dom, but I do have an opinion on this topic. ~smiles~

Do you believe a woman who is very aggressive/assertive and opinionated can be a sub? Do you find women who are assertive and stand up for themselves on a regular basis to not be able to fit the role of a sub?

I like women who are aggressive in bed and assertive in life. I enjoy controlling that aggression and directing that assertiveness. My partner is quite assertive in life. She is a very intelligent, articulate person and has no trouble standing up for herself. One of the pleasures I derive from her strength is the power to harness, refine, and focus that assertiveness. That power is heady. This makes dominating an assertive submissive pleasureable.

As far as a submissive who is aggressive in life, I am not attracted to this type. But, my opinion of aggression is a personal rather than a dictionary one. I think of aggressive people as those who are willing (or apt) to steamroll others to reach their own goal.

Everyone has opinions. Whether one is opinionated or not (in the negative sense) depends, for me, on how she/he goes about offering those opinions.

I can clearly see a difference between a D/s relationship and a man who is misogynistic. However, the difference, to me, comes from a man who is a Dom in a sexual sense because it is what excites him, not because of a strong need to be, as a male, superior and the dominator of women. I fear that many Doms in this world fail to differentiate the two.

Have you experienced this? How do you delineate between the two?

My partner is also a people pleaser and wants to help others. She would never name-call or insult someone to win an ego point (stroke). If she disagrees with someone, she needn't always say so (this is one of the ways I am harnessing her assertiveness), especially if saying so will hurt someone else. (in my opinion, offering one's opinion is valuable when it is done with the goal of showing another option rather than trying to be *right*).

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Re: The Role of the sub

(in my opinion, offering one's opinion is valuable when it is done with the goal of showing another option rather than trying to be *right*).

Your whole post is wonderful, but this line means a great deal to me. I do like how you think.

Rose

 

[MsWorthy]

I think Marquis said it perfectly! Who wants a doormat to dominate? There is no fun in that. Besides, many very aggressive women want/need domination in their sexual lives. It can provide a level of balance for some that desire it.

What is a doormat and where are these people?

Zip, I mean you no insult (I have seen this term used many times, by many people, so I am not focusing on you, personally), but this negative way of describing a person really squicks me. Are you referring to someone who is too easy to get along with?

I know several women who are afraid that because they are naturally submissive and easily submit in some areas of life that they are considered doormats.

~perhaps I should have posted this in the blurt it out thread . . . pardon my off topic hijack~

 

[zipman]

What is a doormat and where are these people?

Zip, I mean you no insult (I have seen this term used many times, by many people, so I am not focusing on you, personally), but this negative way of describing a person really squicks me. Are you referring to someone who is too easy to get along with?

I know several women who are afraid that because they are naturally submissive and easily submit in some areas of life that they are considered doormats.

~perhaps I should have posted this in the blurt it out thread . . . pardon my off topic hijack~

No problem at all MsW. I am glad to clarify. A doormat is a term commonly used to describe a person that allow others to "walk all over them." These kind of people tend to not be able to stand up for themselves, voice their own opinions and will allow the will and desires of others to override what is in their best interests.

What I was stating in my post does not refer to a naturally submissive woman. As to where they are, well, they are all around you. You can find them in abusive relationships, allowing a partner to verbally or physically abuse them while making excuses for the abuser. They can be men just as easily as they can be women.

Sorry the term "squicks" you.

 

[Persephone36]

*edited

I'm not going to take to task people I like and have a high level of respect on this board.

I'm just tired of all the labeling and judgements and reverse judgmentalism that goes on here by the "supposedly" positive element.

Waste of time.

 

[P. B. Walker]

Re: switch perspective

hum... personally, i believe in the idea of commanding respect rather than demanding it. in real life i am a dominant person. not much of a leader, but definately assertive and not afraid to say anything i believe.

in D/s i cannot abide by a Dom who would try to inform me that they are Dom, and so i will be submissive. my response is hell no, and a barrage of insults on their intelligence, and their personal psyche. a Dom will ask ME if i wish to be submissive to them, and if i concent, then they may be Dom. if i concent to being sub, that means alot more than if they tried to grab it from me - which can't be done except at gun point.

the goal of a Dom is to convince a sub that the sub wishes to give themself (within certain peramaters in most cases) to that Dom's control. you cannot force this.

-----------------------------
as for people on here seeming to say that they demand respect, as oposed to winning it and commanding it... my personal opinion is this may have been meant in the context of relationships they have been involved in for some time. they know their sub well enough that the line of demand/command becomes blurry in some areas.
my second guess it they were joking around. a doctor may joke about wanting to yank out a patient's lungs because of their asthama, but would they do it, no.
sometimes Dom's define themselves by making a parody of themselves by saying they would do something that they believe only a "bad" Dom would do. it's self-effacing, but it's just a joke.

is this perhaps what you noticed? i'm speaking out of place, and i could be completely wrong, but these are my thoughts.

Very nicely put angel eve. I don't think I could have put it better. I totally agree with your philosophy.

PBW

 

[artful]

This is a question that is primarily directed toward the Doms on the board. I would like to know what you look for in a sub? I'm not talking about her characteristics in the lifestyle, but how she acts toward other people and other males in particular?
***My sub is free to act any way she wants to with another male. If she embarrasses me,...I will correct her.

Do you believe a woman who is very aggressive/assertive and opinionated can be a sub?
***My subs have ALL been opinionated,...aggressive and/or assertive, to a degree. Dream stands on her own right. Her posts and her opinions are HERS, (not mine).

Do you find women who are assertive and stand up for themselves on a regular basis to not be able to fit the role of a sub?
***I see no relevance at all to this question, to ME, (and 24/7 is all I can relate to), A Dom and sub SHOULD match. Each one contributes THEIR part to a WHOLE. Each part is not equal,...but each part has equal VALUE.

(JMHO),...but it's mine,...and I own it.

 

[MissTaken]

But, there are people out there

who want a meek, coy submissive who looks great on their arm and never has an opinion.

While I haven't met any here, I have certainly chatted, briefly with them at other sites.

On a couple of occasions,

~"You aren't really submissive. Why are you wasting my time?"

~"When you are ready to submit, give me a call." (after having chatted for a week and declining an airline tickety to Arizona.

 

[P. B. Walker]

Re: But, there are people out there

who want a meek, coy submissive who looks great on their arm and never has an opinion.

While I haven't met any here, I have certainly chatted, briefly with them at other sites.

On a couple of occasions,

~"You aren't really submissive. Why are you wasting my time?"

~"When you are ready to submit, give me a call." (after having chatted for a week and declining an airline tickety to Arizona.

I will submit that those type of folks are *NOT* true dominates, MissT. They may love to play the role, but in the end, that is all they are doing... playing a role. There is a huge difference between someone like that... and say someone like Shadowsdream (or any of the other great Dom/mes that we have here at Lit). I think you should simply count yourself as fortunate not to have taken them up on their offers and have a private little joke to yourself about what kinda fools they are.

Also... when you submit to a true Dom/me, they will be proud to have you on their arm no matter what.

PBW


~~ editted for leaving out KEY word ~~

 

[artful]

Lav

I have been dismayed reading many posts on this board, specifically by Doms. It appears to me, that ********** many ********** of them demand control instead of commanding it. Are you following what I'm saying, or am I being too ambiguous?

I don't see how you have formulated that opinion,...but I will respect that it *IS* yours.

 

[Sandia]

This is a question that is primarily directed toward the Doms on the board. I would like to know what you look for in a sub? I'm not talking about her characteristics in the lifestyle, but how she acts toward other people and other males in particular?

Do you believe a woman who is very aggressive/assertive and opinionated can be a sub? Do you find women who are assertive and stand up for themselves on a regular basis to not be able to fit the role of a sub?

I can clearly see a difference between a D/s relationship and a man who is misogynistic. However, the difference, to me, comes from a man who is a Dom in a sexual sense because it is what excites him, not because of a strong need to be, as a male, superior and the dominator of women. I fear that many Doms in this world fail to differentiate the two.

Have you experienced this? How do you delineate between the two?

Good queston, lavender. I wanna confess up front that I haven't (yet) read this thread.

I like women who are upfront, assertive, and brave. I like women who speak their mind, but take care to be non-offensive, when they can. I like women who are capable of standing on their own, who are capable of stating their own opinions even when they're theirs alone - or in conflict with their community or peer group. I like a woman with compassion, and intelligence. In other words, I like women I admire. Most importantly, I like a woman I can have a conversation with. I don't think there's anything inconsistent about a woman who is these things who also likes to experience submission in bed. In fact, I know there's not.

But then, you asked about doms, and I don't know that I qualify - or that I care. I like D/s sex. And I'm usually the D. But I don't know that that needs imply anything else about my character, or that there's anything else I need to do to qualify. Nor do I have any interest in being part of anybody else's club.

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Grave..

I have seen to many subs that are afraid to say what they think to their Doms, and I feel this is a failing in those. We are not mind readers and need input from them to make decisions sometimes. And just because someone has submitted to another does not make that persons opinions less than anothers.

I hope this is what you were looking for.

_____________________________________
I so APPRECIATE this post ,thank-you as I,myself have found myself afraid at times to "voice my feelings" and feel that Master DOES want my input,but I may not feel "free" to give it sometimes..
that is something I really wanna work on ,as my trust in Him builds,I think it will get easier...yes my opinions ARE JUST as valuable as Master's,that's true!!