The only way to end corruption at the IRS is to

[mercury14]

What is wrong with that? Are you against people making money and getting wealthy?

Did I say there was something wrong with it?

 

[mercury14]

These guys aren't even embarrassed at proving my main contention.

It never ceases to amaze me.

We're honest about it and we believe that certain targeted tax breaks are a legitimate function of government. You simply lie to yourself.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

We tried it, 4 level to be sure, but we tried it and it was an abject failure. It was called the "Tax Simplification Act of 1986." It didn't last through 1988 before congress was back to fiddling with the tax code.

Any solution that does not rid us of "Income Tax" as a notion is doomed to fail.

Ishmael

That is why the Fair Tax makes so much sense and why the Left will make up any number of silly lies and distortions about it (even though it will benefit them).


“Like most of her neighborhood, she was a fighting liberal, fighting to have her money taken from her. For all her exertions, it never was.”
John Updike

 

[mercury14]

Besides, what we have now is a simplified flat tax made complex by the social justice and fairness crowd.

Good fucking god, conservatives have loaded up the tax code with a myriad of breaks, deductions, and credits as well. How can you possibly be so dishonest?

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Yes. Have you ever looked at all the 501's out there? Seriously...tax them all. Balanced budget overnight.

I know the Left currently hates the 501s, but let us not forget who created them and why and who was the first one...

It was Hillary Clinton and the Democrat Party's method of getting around the campaign finance reform laws that the had to pass due to voter outrage.

 

[ChinaBandit]

Did I say there was something wrong with it?

I don't know. You're the one who want to raise the rate thus reducing the monetary gain.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

And capital gains are still the ticket to tremendous wealth.

For a few, connected pols. For the rest its a tax on the inflated price of their stuff.

 

[mercury14]

That is why the Fair Tax makes so much sense and why the Left will make up any number of silly lies and distortions about it (even though it will benefit them).


“Like most of her neighborhood, she was a fighting liberal, fighting to have her money taken from her. For all her exertions, it never was.”
John Updike

It will benefit the wealthy and be a massive tax hike on the rest of America. We can do the math on this but you don't think numbers should be used in things like revenue projections and tax liabilities.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

What is wrong with that? Are you against people making money and getting wealthy?

Situationally, yes.

He's even to walk out on that limb of, "I do not pay enough taxes, I got incredibly wealthy day trading and would be very happy if I had been forced to pay more tax to ease the suffering of the children..."

A_J's corollary #11, “The New Age Liberal defines a fair share of taxes as, ‘When you pay your taxes, you have no more money left than anyone else has.’”

 

[mercury14]

I don't know. You're the one who want to raise the rate thus reducing the monetary gain.

Step 1) Reattach capital gains taxes to the income tax like it's been for most of our history. Monetary gain and market value have proven to be perfectly fine when there's just one rate for all kinds of income.

Step 2) Use the increased revenue to then lower everyone's income tax rate by an amount that will keep things revenue-neutral.


Sound good?

 

[ChinaBandit]

Step 1) Reattach capital gains taxes to the income tax like it's been for most of our history. Monetary gain and market value have proven to be perfectly fine when there's just one rate for all kinds of income.

Step 2) Use the increased revenue to then lower everyone's income tax rate by an amount that will keep things revenue-neutral.


Sound good?

Capital gain is, invariably, associated with initial risk. Where does one find the most risk? The equity markets. If the rate increases, by income tax bracket, investment will diminish. That includes the average Joe who has his Profit Sharing tied to fund participation in the market. Less equity in the markets equates to less corporate cash flow, less capital investment, less jobs....It's not good for anyone.

I can't agree with it.

 

[mercury14]

Capital gain is, invariably, associated with initial risk. Where does one find the most risk? The equity markets. If the rate increases, by income tax bracket, investment will diminish. That includes the average Joe who has his Profit Sharing tied to fund participation in the market. Less equity in the markets equates to less corporate cash flow, less capital investment, less jobs....It's not good for anyone.

I can't agree with it.

Okay well when the capital gains rate was detached from the income tax rate, investment didn't increase. Therefore it wont diminish if it's switched back. All it did was make already rich people a whole lot richer while leaving the rest of the country behind. It increased wealth disparity and made America a whole lot less fair.

Not to mention we just saw a 5% raise in the capital gains rate this year and investment actually increased right after the bump.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Capital gain is, invariably, associated with initial risk. Where does one find the most risk? The equity markets. If the rate increases, by income tax bracket, investment will diminish. That includes the average Joe who has his Profit Sharing tied to fund participation in the market. Less equity in the markets equates to less corporate cash flow, less capital investment, less jobs....It's not good for anyone.

I can't agree with it.

He doesn't care if there are negative consequences.

He does not understand that right now his philosophy is in the White House and despite all of the Fed Money and those "criminally low" capital gains rates, corporate equity is sitting on the side lines terrified that if they bring the economy back, they will be punished for it.

 

[mercury14]

He doesn't care if there are negative consequences.

He does not understand that right now his philosophy is in the White House and despite all of the Fed Money and those "criminally low" capital gains rates, corporate equity is sitting on the side lines terrified that if they bring the economy back, they will be punished for it.

I'm saying the benefit outweighs the consequence. And you're in denial if you think there wasn't a negative consequence for taxing capital gains income at a different rate than income.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

MERC is fulla shit per usual.

An increase in the capital gains rate doesn't guarantee that anyone will pay it.

The other thing is this, if you live in an urban feral Democrat neighborhood, and the price of ammo increases because of taxes, the tax wont keep you from buying boxes of bullets.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Look, everyone knows that taxation reduces, so if the goal is to reduce Capital Gains, then by all means, raise the taxes on it.


We can get by with 7% unemployment and mommy and daddy working four part-time jobs for-fucking-ever in the name of fairness.

It worked well for East Germany!

 

[mercury14]

MERC is fulla shit per usual.

An increase in the capital gains rate doesn't guarantee that anyone will pay it.

The other thing is this, if you live in an urban feral Democrat neighborhood, and the price of ammo increases because of taxes, the tax wont keep you from buying boxes of bullets.

Oh then if people aren't going to pay it then there's no negative consequence to raising the rate. You think AJ and China are full of shit, not me.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

A good point was made over at NRO for those of us who know the Obama Political History of intimidation and getting private records unsealed, just like Islam takes its cues from the life of Mohammed, the IRS and all these other agencies, and there will be more shoes dropping, were merely taking the tack and direction of their captain.

 

[Wat_Tyler]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/922814_489033094512260_232086638_n.jpg

 

[mercury14]

Look, everyone knows that taxation reduces, so if the goal is to reduce Capital Gains, then by all means, raise the taxes on it.


We can get by with 7% unemployment and mommy and daddy working four part-time jobs for-fucking-ever in the name of fairness.

It worked well for East Germany!

The old "everyone knows" rationalization. Taxation may or may not decrease some activity. And if it does decrease, the impact may be temporary or long-term. Your problem is that you constantly use these assumptions which are often half-true at best.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

They become apt to take because they wish to spend and cannot do this easily; for their possessions soon run short. Thus they are forced to provide means from some other source. At the same time, because they care nothing for honor, they take recklessly and from any source.
Aristotle

The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."
Cornelius Tacitus

A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.
Thomas Jefferson

An individual who is observed to be inconstant to his plans, or perhaps to carry on his affairs without any plan at all, is marked at once, by all prudent people, as a speedy victim to his own unsteadiness and folly. His more friendly neighbors may pity him, but all will decline to connect their fortunes with his; and not a few will seize the opportunity of making their fortunes out of his. One nation is to another what one individual is to another...;
The want of confidence in the public councils damps every useful undertaking, the success and profit of which may depend on a continuance of existing arrangements. What prudent merchant will hazard his fortunes in any new branch of commerce when he knows not but that his plans may be rendered unlawful before they can be executed? What farmer or manufacturer will lay himself out for the encouragement given to any particular cultivation or establishment, when he can have no assurance that his preparatory labors and advances will not render him a victim to an inconstant government?
Madison, Federalist 62.

"Little else is requisite to carry a state to the highest degree of opulence from the lowest barbarism but peace, easy taxes, and a tolerable administration of justice: all the rest being brought about by the natural course of things."
Adam Smith

"[W]hat limits ought to be set to the activity of the state," is "that the provision of security, against both external enemies and internal dissensions must constitute the purpose of the state, and occupy the circle of its activity."
Wilhelm von Humboldt

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it."
Frédéric Bastiat

 

[mercury14]

And AJ proceeds with his usual avalanche of quotes he's pasted literally hundreds of times.... Conversation over.

 

[ChinaBandit]

Okay well when the capital gains rate was detached from the income tax rate, investment didn't increase. Therefore it wont diminish if it's switched back. All it did was make already rich people a whole lot richer while leaving the rest of the country behind. It increased wealth disparity and made America a whole lot less fair.

Not to mention we just saw a 5% raise in the capital gains rate this year and investment actually increased right after the bump.

Investment did not increase? That's simply not true Merc. Participation in the markets, by a wider variety of Americans and income levels, absolutely increased. There would not have been the explosion of funds if this wasn't this wasn't the case either.

As for investment increasing after the bump? It would have increased anyway. It's been a bullish environment. WTF?

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it."
Frédéric Bastiat


You're shouting at a Crusader and all he hears is heresy to the cause.

 

[mercury14]

Investment did not increase? That's simply not true Merc. Participation in the markets, by a wider variety of Americans and income levels, absolutely increased. There would not have been the explosion of funds if this wasn't this wasn't the case either.

As for investment increasing after the bump? It would have increased anyway. It's been a bullish environment. WTF?

If capital gains rate increases mean we can still proceed to record market highs what are you complaining about.

And you have no proof that there was a surge in investment due to the capital gains rate decreasing.