The most important thing you need to know about the voter ID issue

[KingOrfeo]

. . . is that using "voter fraud" to steal an election is virtually impossible.

From The Voting Wars, by Richard Hasen:

If I wanted to steal an election using voter impersonation fraud, I'd have to recruit a bunch of people to vote at the polling place using fake names. But they might not follow my directions. They might go into the polling place and not vote, they might vote under their own names, or they might vote for someone other than the candidate I paid them to vote for. This is the problem with any elections crime scheme based on voters using a secret ballot in a polling place.

But impersonation fraud represents an even greater hurdle. There are two ways to impersonate. One way would be to have people claim to be somebody else listed on the rolls. This is obviously problematic: If I send you in and direct you to claim to be Thor Hearne, who I know is registered to vote in that precinct, but Thor has already showed up to vote, you would be immediately subject to arrest.

You might be arrested even if Thor has not yet voted. In many precincts, poll workers are local individuals. One of them could well know him. "You're not Thor" could also land you in jail. Moreover, many places do a signature match. Your signature would not match Thor's.

The other way of doing impersonation fraud would be for me to get you to fill out a registration card with a false name and address. The voter registration card would be turned into election officials, who will check the name and address against existing records. These forms have to be turned in weeks before the election. I'd then need to recruit people to go to the polling place on Election Day and falsely claim to be a person on the list. And federal law already provides that first-time voters must supply a driver's license or Social Security number if they register first to vote by mail -- or provide identification to election officials when they vote for the first time.

Either gambit requires assembling enough coconspirators to affect the outcome of the election. Could I do it, even in a very small election, without getting caught? We don't have a single recent example of anyone even attempting it. Why try such a risky scheme when absentee ballots are so much safer and more reliable? [N.B.: Hasen is not talking about fraudulent absentee ballots but bought absentee ballots; as he notes elsewhere in the book, absentee voting is the one area where vote-buying still happens sometimes, because, unlike voting a secret ballot on e-day, it leaves a paper trail which the buyer can check if he has the right inside connections, or simply check in person by watching the voter fill out the ballot.]

The chance that impersonation fraud can effect a presidential, statewide, or even large city or county election is miniscule. Missouri had about four million registered voters in the 2000s. The idea that impersonation fraud could be done on a large-enough scale to affect the outcome of any major race, without detection by government officials, is ludicrous.

 

[LiFeNdEaTh]

interesting..

 

[KRCummings]

So this guy never heard of Chicago?

 

[KingOrfeo]

This is an amazingly even-handed book, BTW. No one could accuse Hasen (a law prof specializing in elections law) of any partisan bias. He covers every aspect of controversy about voting over which the parties have struggled since 2000, and he cites countless examples where Dems as well as Pubs have not been entirely honest about the whole thing. In his view Dems often cry "Voter suppression!" in cases attributable to incompetence rather than malice. But on the issue of "voter fraud" his conclusions are entirely one-sided: It's a nonproblem the Pubs have whipped up for their own partisan interests.

His general message is that all these problems arise because of two characteristics of the American election system which are highly unusual in a modern republic:

1) The system is "hyperfederalized." Every county's elections office does things its own way, every Supervisor of Elections is elected locally. Even a state Secretary of State has only very limited power to standardize the process.

2) The system is partisan. Most elections officials and SOSs are partisan elected officials. In other republics they are usually civil servants.

 

[RobDownSouth]

So this guy never heard of Chicago?

There was widescale voter fraud in Chicago in 1960.
That was a half century ago.
The USSR was a superpower back then.
Times change.

 

[Liar]

Democracy fatigue. You guys elect everything.

 

[KRCummings]

There was widescale voter fraud in Chicago in 1960.
That was a half century ago.
The USSR was a superpower back then.
Times change.

I agree but the the blurb that was posted suggests it's impossible because of the conspiracy not the date. Chicago proves otherwise.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Democracy fatigue. You guys elect everything.

I know. I mean, why should a sheriff be elected?! We don't elect city police chiefs.

 

[KingOrfeo]

I agree but the the blurb that was posted suggests it's impossible because of the conspiracy not the date. Chicago proves otherwise.

I think you'll find elections in Chicago were stolen not by people showing up at the polls pretending to be somebody else, but by old-fashioned ballot-box stuffing. I.e., the kind of fraud committed by election officials, or at least impossible without their complicity. There are ways to prevent that, but voter ID is not one of them.

 

[KRCummings]

I think you'll find elections in Chicago were stolen not by people showing up at the polls pretending to be somebody else, but by old-fashioned ballot-box stuffing. I.e., the kind of fraud committed by election officials, or at least impossible without their complicity.

Still a conspiracy. I get what the author is saying and don't totally disagree but the fact remains there have been successful attempts at voter fraud involving a conspiracy of many people.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Still a conspiracy. I get what the author is saying and don't totally disagree but the fact remains there have been successful attempts at voter fraud involving a conspiracy of many people.

You're confusing the issue. A conspiracy to steal an election through voter fraud is impossible, but there are other kinds of election fraud, all of them requiring inside help, therefore conspiracies by definition. Hasen covers those too. He also covers other things, e.g., an episode in Cuyahoga County, Ohio, in 2004 where the elections officials rigged a recount just because they were too lazy to actually do it. (They were caught and went to jail.)

 

[KRCummings]

You're confusing the issue. A conspiracy to steal an election through voter fraud is impossible, but there are other kinds of election fraud, all of them requiring inside help, therefore conspiracies by definition. Hasen covers those too.

That's fine, I'm going by what was posted which suggests a conspiracy wouldn't work. Like I said, I don't really disagree and if he covers other frauds that have worked then fine.

 

[phrodeau]

Do the election officials have to show ID when they get on the job?

 

[KingOrfeo]

Do the election officials have to show ID when they get on the job?

I should think so. But who knows? Every county does things its own way. Anyway, they're local officials known to the locals; impersonating an official would be even harder than impersonating a voter.

 

[KingOrfeo]

That's fine, I'm going by what was posted which suggests a conspiracy wouldn't work. Like I said, I don't really disagree and if he covers other frauds that have worked then fine.

Well, the relevance is that while there are real forms of election fraud, voter ID would not help at all to stop those forms. It's a nonissue.

 

[KRCummings]

I should think so. But who knows? Every county does things its own way. Anyway, they're local officials known to the locals; impersonating an official would be even harder than impersonating a voter.

What I've always found odd is that I live in a town of less than 2000 people and every time I vote I don't recognize a single official. Not one. Now I realize I don't know every single person in town but I know most at least by sight. Always struck me as weird. I don't think that kind of fraud happens here (although I'm pretty sure it has happened at least once that I know of) but wouldn't you think I'd at least know one official?
Just a tidbit from my life.

 

[richard_daily]

You're confusing the issue. A conspiracy to steal an election through voter fraud is impossible, but there are other kinds of election fraud, all of them requiring inside help, therefore conspiracies by definition. Hasen covers those too. He also covers other things, e.g., an episode in Cuyahoga County, Ohio, in 2004 where the elections officials rigged a recount just because they were too lazy to actually do it. (They were caught and went to jail.)

She's not confusing the issue, she just patently doesn't understand it.

 

[KingOrfeo]

What I've always found odd is that I live in a town of less than 2000 people and every time I vote I don't recognize a single official. Not one.

Don't worry. Every one of them is known to some of your neighbors and an imposter would be spotted in a minute.

Still and despite that, it would be better if we had a system like most democracies have, where the election officials are faceless -- and nonpartisan -- career civil servants. (Those at least are well-known to their coworkers in the relevant department, therefore equally impossible to impersonate, unless the department itself is corrupt.)

 

[RobDownSouth]

What I've always found odd is that I live in a town of less than 2000 people and every time I vote I don't recognize a single official. Not one. Now I realize I don't know every single person in town but I know most at least by sight. Always struck me as weird. I don't think that kind of fraud happens here (although I'm pretty sure it has happened at least once that I know of) but wouldn't you think I'd at least know one official?
Just a tidbit from my life.

When I lived in Georgia, they always had an ever-rotating cast of 90-something poll officials. I remember one particularly contested local option election, turnout was (surprise!) very high, and the poll folks were complaining about how busy they were.

Last time I voted there, I walked in and the poll guy handed me a Republican primary ballot without asking. Let's just say he'll never make that mistake again!!

-Rob Teh Badass

 

[KRCummings]

Well, the relevance is that while there are real forms of election fraud, voter ID would not help at all to stop those forms. It's a nonissue.

I'm on the fence on the issue but I agree it won't change much ultimately.

 

[KRCummings]

When I lived in Georgia, they always had an ever-rotating cast of 90-something poll officials. I remember one particularly contested local option election, turnout was (surprise!) very high, and the poll folks were complaining about how busy they were.

Last time I voted there, I walked in and the poll guy handed me a Republican primary ballot without asking. Let's just say he'll never make that mistake again!!

-Rob Teh Badass

We have maybe 10 people working the polls. All older than sin. Sticklers for the rules, too.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Look, guys, if you really want to make absolutely sure no noncitizen or felon ever votes illegally, there's only one way: A national ID card (issued free of charge so there's no question of it being a poll tax) combined with a national database. Your file on this database would be referenced and accessible by any of your ID numbers (national ID, SSN, DL, passport, etc.). It would include scanned copies of every documentary record of every personal interaction with American government you ever have had on any level -- birth certificate, school records ("I hope you know this will go down on your permanent record." It will! ), DL applications, welfare or unemployment applications, any records of arrest, conviction, restoration-of-rights, naturalization record if applicable, military record if applicable, etc., etc. Any time you interact with government, the paperwork will be emailed to the agency running the database automatically. Including, at the last, your death certificate, and then your file will be marked "DECEASED."

This would eliminate the need for voter registration. If you are legally eligible, your ID -- any ID -- would be your registration; everyone who is in this database is registered to vote automatically. Just walk in and show it to the poll workers. They'll slide it through a credit-card reader and be able to see any disqualifying points right in front of them; if it turns out you can't vote, you will not be arrested but simply be politely turned away, no harm, no foul. If the system is done right, you'll be listed on the precinct-rolls already, just because government has a record of your current address. A problem arises only if you have not interacted with government since the last time you moved; that would be the only case where a "provisional ballot" might be in order.

Otherwise, the only purpose of voter registration is to let you register as D, R, or I, and the only point of that is which party's primary you get to vote in; but that could be an election-day choice, why not. If you maliciously want to vote in the other party's primary for strategic reasons -- well, you can do that now, just register for that party.

This database would also make identity theft much harder, and fugitives or anyone under an arrest warrant easier to catch. Undocumented immigrants, too -- and those who employ them. And, of course, the database would be an important source of accurate statistics. Heck, it might even substitute, to some limited degree, for the Census.

Apart from the expense, I see no objections to such a system. "You have zero privacy anyway. Get over it."

But I think some will object. It just doesn't sound American, y'know? "Are hyour paperz in order, mein Herr?"

But, look, we've already gotten used to a system where, when you're driving, a cop can pull you over for any reason that seems good to him, and demand to see your DL, and check it against a database with his onboard computer, and if you have any arrest warrants you'll be arrested.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Look, guys, if you really want to make absolutely sure no noncitizen or felon ever votes illegally, there's only one way: A national ID card (issued free of charge so there's no question of it being a poll tax) combined with a national database. Your file on this database would be referenced and accessible by any of your ID numbers (national ID, SSN, DL, passport, etc.). It would include scanned copies of every documentary record of every personal interaction with American government you ever have had on any level -- birth certificate, school records ("I hope you know this will go down on your permanent record." It will! ), DL applications, welfare or unemployment applications, any records of arrest, conviction, restoration-of-rights, naturalization record if applicable, military record if applicable, etc., etc. Any time you interact with government, the paperwork will be emailed to the agency running the database automatically. Including, at the last, your death certificate, and then your file will be marked "DECEASED."

This would eliminate the need for voter registration. If you are legally eligible, your ID -- any ID -- would be your registration; everyone who is in this database is registered to vote automatically. Just walk in and show it to the poll workers. They'll slide it through a credit-card reader and be able to see any disqualifying points right in front of them; if it turns out you can't vote, you will not be arrested but simply be politely turned away, no harm, no foul. If the system is done right, you'll be listed on the precinct-rolls already, just because government has a record of your current address. A problem arises only if you have not interacted with government since the last time you moved; that would be the only case where a "provisional ballot" might be in order.

Otherwise, the only purpose of voter registration is to let you register as D, R, or I, and the only point of that is which party's primary you get to vote in; but that could be an election-day choice, why not. If you maliciously want to vote in the other party's primary for strategic reasons -- well, you can do that now, just register for that party.

This database would also make identity theft much harder, and fugitives or anyone under an arrest warrant easier to catch. Undocumented immigrants, too -- and those who employ them. And, of course, the database would be an important source of accurate statistics. Heck, it might even substitute, to some limited degree, for the Census.

Apart from the expense, I see no objections to such a system. "You have zero privacy anyway. Get over it."

But I think some will object. It just doesn't sound American, y'know? "Are hyour paperz in order, mein Herr?"

But, look, we've already gotten used to a system where, when you're driving, a cop can pull you over for any reason that seems good to him, and demand to see your DL, and check it against a database with his onboard computer, and if you have any arrest warrants you'll be arrested.

I'd support that if it included every single firearm you've ever purchased.

 

[KingOrfeo]

I'd support that if it included every single firearm you've ever purchased.

Goes without saying.

And, of course, when you buy a gun, the database can be used to do the background check instantly and easily. No excuse to omit it, even at gun shows.

 

[phrodeau]

Revelation 13:16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,
Revelation 13:17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.