The moralty of murder

[Lucifer_Carroll]

One the one hand, I know this thread will probably become infamous with people becoming angry and frustrated as people argue what they believe against what others think. I can also predict at least one of us getting into a page-long row about semantics with Joe.

On the other hand, I'm mightily curious to know what people think about the taking of another's life.

I know the levels and markoffs, how few would hesitate to kill to save your own life or how they would gladly kill to save the lives of loved ones. And I know on the other side that most people would be at least hesistant about slaughtering a cute baby or an entire ethnic race.

Also, I know that the moment you kill someone is the so-called "no return" moment. In Japan they used that moment to decide when the soldiers became soldiers and men. Other cultures have marked it as a rite of manhood. There is something final about being fully responsible for someone else's loss of life, a stain on the soul that can't be erased.


Anyway, perhaps I could start with what I believe and we can work from there. Personally I believe that killing another without remorse is an evil act. I believe that a man can feel it is neccesary, that he can justify why, that he can defend himself, but to feel no harrowing of the soul afterwards is a dangerous emotion. A man may kill another to save his life and while he may know he had no other choice or that it was an accident, he should still see that man's face in his nightmares, should still have to convince himself everyday. Such overpresent conscience, in my opinion, is the mark of a good man. A man who is too quick to forgive himself for taking another man's life will be quick to do it again and do it for less provocation. This is just my opinion.

So, let the discussion commence.

 

[Belegon]

I have thought about this before. I have never come up with a good answer.

I know that I would be capable of killing. I look at ways I acted in the past and despite my personal growth and my better control I know there are still possible situations where I can imagine myself killing another.

Without remorse? I don't think so. Even those who deserve death. I think I would have remorse.

I am not one who believes there is never a reason to take another human life. I do think it should only be done in very extreme cases.

 

[Guest]

What a weird thread title. I didn't realise there was any kind of morality when it comes to murder.

Lucifer, after such a strange thread title, you then go on to talk about killing another in self-defense, or during a war, or whatever - none of which is murder.

I'm not quite sure what you're gettig at with this, but surely if it was all out actual murder, the person committing that would be below the usual moral standards of most. I don't think there's many murderers, or even potential murderers haning out here at the AH.

Killing another during warfare, or as an act of self defense (i.e. in a situation where it is either them or me/us), is COMPLETELY different. And, you might find there are people here at the AH who have had to do just that, so be very careful.

I'm certain most humans, with any kind of conscience, will always have it on their minds. I don't know, though, I've never been in that situation. I guess it also depends on the circumstances - the proximity of the "enemy", the conditions. There could be a sense of achievement and exhiliration from it too, though. A feeling of, "Yes! I got him, but he didn't get me." Remember, I am talking about war and "them or us" situtations here. Also, I'm talking about highly trained soldiers - not street fighters. There is a difference.

Lou

 

[Pure]

Here's a couple for ya, Luc:

My pov:

For a soldier to be out of his/her country, say more than 10 miles past its border, and to kill someone, is immoral-- with certain qualifications.

The policeman's killing in the line of duty, to protect his/her life or those of innocents is licit; the executioner's killing in his/her alleged duty is immoral.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I was raised around guns. I was raised to respect them, and to understand the responsibility that comes with owning one. I was also raised to understand what using one meant. I was taught to shoot for the body, basically, to shoot to kill. The reasoning behind it is that I already knew better than to play iwth a gun, if I had one out and had made the decision my life was in danger, I needed to make sure I scored a telling hit.

Murder to me is premeditated. It's when you plan to take another's life. Self defense isn't murder, it's survival. On the battlefield, the same applies, you are not commiting murder, you are saving your own life and those of your buddies.

If I kill someone in self defense, I do not believe there will be any regret or soul searching on my part. Perhaps it is how I was raised, but I know when I put my hand on a gun with the intent to use it that I have already made the decision to kill. I know to, that the decision would never be made unless I saw no other way to safety.Having been raised around guns and taught to use & respect them, I have already gone through the moralizing that would come with having to defend myself. Anyone who has pushed me to that last throw, has alreeady made the decision my life is expendable, I don't think I would have to much in the way of sympathy.

An accident is just that. It's an accident. They happen and by definition they aren't something you can plan for or avoid. If I killed soeone by accident, there would be deep regret and recrimination I think. But you still aren't talking about murder, you are talking about an accident.

There is almost always a splitting of hairs among people. Some say killing under any circumstance is murder. Others apply a self imposed set of strictures on what does or doesn't constitute murder. Even the law isn't sure, having degrees of criminality for the act of killing. In the end, you probably never know what you are capable of doing or concienceing until you have been in the situation.

-Colly

 

[cloudy]

(It's hard to post seriously with a depraved clown as my AV, but I'll try)

I'm with you, Colly.

I was raised around guns, as well. In fact, I don't ever remember a time when we didn't have guns in the house, and readily available.

I, too, was taught that if the situation became so dire that I needed a gun to save my life, or the lives of those I love, that I needed to shoot to kill. Don't try to disable someone, don't try to slow them down - kill them, and do it as quickly as possible. My father even went to the extent of having all of us, my brothers and sisters, me, and my mom, go through those combat training courses similar to what you see police go through - the ones where cardboard cutouts pop up, and you have to decide in a split second whether they're a "good guy" or a "bad guy."

I do think, though, even if I was in a situation where I saw no alternative other than to kill someone, I would still have remorse. Maybe not for actually killing someone that was threatening my life, but just because it had come to the point where I had to use my knowledge in such a way.

Would I hesitate, given that the situation is me or them? Absolutely not.

 

[Guest]

I can kill another man without remose if I believe I can get away with a murder (and many often do). That's a sad fact of my life.

But, then, I'm too lazy and disorganised.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

What a weird thread title. I didn't realise there was any kind of morality when it comes to murder.

Lucifer, after such a strange thread title, you then go on to talk about killing another in self-defense, or during a war, or whatever - none of which is murder.

I'm not quite sure what you're gettig at with this, but surely if it was all out actual murder, the person committing that would be below the usual moral standards of most. I don't think there's many murderers, or even potential murderers haning out here at the AH.

Killing another during warfare, or as an act of self defense (i.e. in a situation where it is either them or me/us), is COMPLETELY different. And, you might find there are people here at the AH who have had to do just that, so be very careful.

I'm certain most humans, with any kind of conscience, will always have it on their minds. I don't know, though, I've never been in that situation. I guess it also depends on the circumstances - the proximity of the "enemy", the conditions. There could be a sense of achievement and exhiliration from it too, though. A feeling of, "Yes! I got him, but he didn't get me." Remember, I am talking about war and "them or us" situtations here. Also, I'm talking about highly trained soldiers - not street fighters. There is a difference.

Lou

Mmm, I see.

All right, caveat time: To those of you out there who had to take another's life whether in combat, to save yourself, by accident, or to save a loved one, I hope not to step on your toes with this thread. If you find yourself being offended, please tell me and I'll try to correct it.

I left it open on the delineation between killing and murder, because it seemed that just killing was the biggest moment of soul-shattering "oh what did I do?" This is even when the act was neccesary and I'm not saying that act isn't.

I know I can kill another person, it's a fact of my condition that has led to a long careful control over any agressive emotions. Personally, like many others, I would strive to avoid it until there was no choice and at that point refuse to show mercy or hesitation. I won't be able to restrain to incapacitation at that point, it'd be far too late.

As for my view, it was as I said a personal view of mine. Others may have different views of the morality standards in situations. Certainly others have painted such a picture, for which I am interested and grateful.

As far as my views on murder as you defined it, I'd think my opinions of its morality would be similar to the other. There may be reasons for premeditated slaughter, even sometimes a lack of choice. A man who kills the tyrant starving his family for instance or plots the murder of his sadistic gaoler. Similarily I think a spot of remorse is neccesary, even for a monster. It can be an easily dismissed remorse or a justified remorse, but a remorse just the same. Such feelings, in my opinion, show a human nature and a working conscience and prevents transition.

This is as I said a personal viewpoint and I don't expect by any means for everyone to adopt it out of a fear of looking "evil".

Lord knows I don't fear that.

 

[Sabledrake]

Murder? If I knew I could get away with it, heck yeah. I've even gots me a list.




What? It's a short list ...

Sabledrake

 

[sweetnpetite]

I completly agree.

I don't like the death penalty, because I think it turns us into a society of vengful monsters. Ugly.

What do you think of boxing and other 'sports' where-in the object is to cause the other person to bleed or feel pain?

One the one hand, I know this thread will probably become infamous with people becoming angry and frustrated as people argue what they believe against what others think. I can also predict at least one of us getting into a page-long row about semantics with Joe.

On the other hand, I'm mightily curious to know what people think about the taking of another's life.

I know the levels and markoffs, how few would hesitate to kill to save your own life or how they would gladly kill to save the lives of loved ones. And I know on the other side that most people would be at least hesistant about slaughtering a cute baby or an entire ethnic race.

Also, I know that the moment you kill someone is the so-called "no return" moment. In Japan they used that moment to decide when the soldiers became soldiers and men. Other cultures have marked it as a rite of manhood. There is something final about being fully responsible for someone else's loss of life, a stain on the soul that can't be erased.


Anyway, perhaps I could start with what I believe and we can work from there. Personally I believe that killing another without remorse is an evil act. I believe that a man can feel it is neccesary, that he can justify why, that he can defend himself, but to feel no harrowing of the soul afterwards is a dangerous emotion. A man may kill another to save his life and while he may know he had no other choice or that it was an accident, he should still see that man's face in his nightmares, should still have to convince himself everyday. Such overpresent conscience, in my opinion, is the mark of a good man. A man who is too quick to forgive himself for taking another man's life will be quick to do it again and do it for less provocation. This is just my opinion.

So, let the discussion commence.

 

[CharleyH]

On the other hand, I'm mightily curious to know what people think about the taking of another's life.

Anyway, perhaps I could start with what I believe and we can work from there. Personally I believe that killing another without remorse is an evil act. I believe that a man can feel it is neccesary, that he can justify why, that he can defend himself, but to feel no harrowing of the soul afterwards is a dangerous emotion. A man may kill another to save his life and while he may know he had no other choice or that it was an accident, he should still see that man's face in his nightmares, should still have to convince himself everyday. Such overpresent conscience, in my opinion, is the mark of a good man. A man who is too quick to forgive himself for taking another man's life will be quick to do it again and do it for less provocation. This is just my opinion.

So, let the discussion commence.

First off, I have always been attracted to the existentialists, and the concept of angst, the world of Sartre has stuck in my mind since grade 12. The actions of the world being the ultimate responsibility of the individual - which is merely lay, I know, but it is the first thing that comes to mind when you discuss 'the responsibility of another's life'. I will avoid it if possible

Is 'killing without remorse' an act of evil. Hm. Killing is one thing, murder another, perhaps its in the degree. War or crimes of passion or self-defense, I don't want to touch. We can go on about the death penalty, but in an act of love, or mercy when so much pain is visited upon someone, can you say you would rather see them tortured than to die? If there is a choice, it rests on your shoulders, to die, to let live in torture. And if you agree to mercy killing with clean conscience, does this make you evil? and if you are a serial killer and put someone out of their misery, from your point of view, as an act of love and beauty, does this make you evil? It is murder, both circumstances, according to law, and much more in tune with what you are thinking than war, abortion etc. One kills for a number of reasons as you mention, but lets think of these two scenario's

Does a serial killer really believe he is killing and it is evil

What intrigues me about your question coincides with one of two erotic horror stories I am in process on. One is completely fantastic, the other completely real, so to delve into the mind of a "murderer" is fascinating at this moment.

How does one murder and why. This is such a complicated (scratching chin - so many factors) issue, and merely a starting point of our collective fascination with death and why, particularly where it concerns serial killers. What fascinates me more is what does one view when they do it? What does one subsequently feel.

Is there a difference between how the mercy killer views death, and how the serial killer does. Dahlmer had guilt. Warnos(sp?) had guilt. Kevorkian did not.

So, who is more evil? Or is evil merely a point of view of society and additionaly what makes the difference between Dahlmer and Kevorkian?

 

[nushu2]

I have killed someone. An 85 year-old woman didn't see my car and stepped out onto the freeway. That was over twenty years ago but I'm still a killer. It haunted me for years and I thought I could never take another life, for any reason.

During my college years, I took a little trip deep into psyche and found that not only could I kill, but that inner lizard-monkey could find pleasure in it. That animal is still there but I've never let him out. It's sort of scary knowing it's there in my subconscious, with no conscience, but part of being human is all evolution that led up to us.

It struck me that these primal instincts are the motivation for serial killers but that seems far too simplistic. I don't believe in good and evil as constructs, only consequences. It would be incorrect to label a person or motivations as either good or evil but the actions could be. I know that morality and ethics can be turned off as easily as a light switch for some people. Actually, all people under the right circumstances.

 

[SeaCat]

Personal thoughts on killing and murder.

To me these are two seperate concepts, even though they deal with the taking of another life. In my most humble opinion, to kill is to take another life, and feel remorse for it no matter what the circumstances are. Murder on the other hand is the taking of another life without feeling the remorse.

That being said, I have known many people who have taken anothers life. either in self defense as a civilian, or in defense of others either as a Soldier or as a Law Officer. Out of these many people I only met one who didn't feel remorse for what they had done, and that person is one I want nothing to do with.

Even the him or me argument doesn't stand up to this. If a person kills another in self defense and doesn't feel remorse, it's an even bet I can find a way out of the situation that person didn't take because they didn't want to.

The Indians said it best when they prayed to the spirits of the animals they killed for food. They asked for forgiveness for killing the animal.

Now as to the other question of wether or not I believe I am capable of killing. Yes I am, and I have. I also pay for it every day I am alive. Am capable of doing so again? Yes, if the situation warrants it, and I will pay for that life as well. On the same note, I do not hunt forfun. If I need food and can see no other way to get it then I will hunt, but only then.

Cat

 

[bg23]

Morality is relative. That's all I have to say.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I have one basic rule: touch my kids and I will do what I have to do.

Like Colly said, murder is premeditated. I couldn't do that, to much to think about...but then again, I contradict myself. If someone brought grave harm to my children, I would methodically think on how to dispose of them.

why did I even read this thread, now I have to go and ponder.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Lucifer, after such a strange thread title, you then go on to talk about killing another in self-defense, or during a war, or whatever - none of which is murder.

Lou

I don't know if this has been mentioned but-

Murder as a legal term refers to *unsanctioned* killing.

[The unlawful killing of one human by another...
the crime of unlawfully and unjustifiably killing another under circumstances defined by statute...
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=murder ]

Therefore, if a killing is legally sanctioned, such as killing other combatants in war, self defence (in some cases), the death penalty, ect. it is not murder. If it where legal to kill your wife for not having dinner on the table by 5:00 pm, doing so would not be murder.

Obvioulsy, laws are different from place to place and since 'murder' is a legal term, (it's definintion depends on the law] it's meaning differs from place to place and even from situation to situation.

There are also different kinds of laws: fedral laws, international laws, state laws, church laws (perhaps called bylaws?), spiritual laws, natural laws, even perhaps laws of conscience.

To a person who feels that taking a human life is never sanctioned, perhaps one who consideres it against *spiritual law* or *laws of concience* any such action could rightfully be considered murder- by that person. Others who are not under that spiritual law, and who do not live in a place with a comparable man made law, would be equally correct in not considering it murder and would not be held to that definition. (unless in the end of time it is revealed that it was actually a Universal Law of Truth or something, but we'll set that aside)

Now, there are many who will be offended by the idea that *they* or those they know or love would be considered murderers by someone with such a strict personal code. But I don't think that that invalidates the right of said person to hold that code (especially as is Luc's case, to hold that code only to themselves). I am somewhat offended by the notion that many hold that I am a sinner and am going to hell for such things as *masterbating* *writing porn* *living in sin* ect, ect. However, we do have the right to hold opinions that are offensive, even on a personal level, to others.

That said, I certainly don't think that Luc's intention was to be offensive, mearly to state his beliefs. But to state ones belief is always going to offend someone.

I am sorry to anyone who's feelings it hurts, but I defend Luc's right to refer to any taking of human life as *murder.* You don't have to agree with him or with me, but I do not believe that it is technically inaccurate, despite the fact that such killings may not be illegal under US, local or international law.

He seems to have stated that *even in the eventuality where it (killing) would be necessary, his own conscience could never completely sanction it.* (forgive me, Luc if I have misinterpreted you.)

Perhaps he is not saying that, but there *are those who do feel that killing is never sanctioned and therefore any killing (or possibly intentional killing) is seen as murder. (though obvioulsy different from legally prosicutable murder)

 

[sweetnpetite]

clean conscience not the same as 'without remorse'

in an act of love, or mercy when so much pain is visited upon someone, can you say you would rather see them tortured than to die? If there is a choice, it rests on your shoulders, to die, to let live in torture. And if you agree to mercy killing with clean conscience, does this make you evil? ... It is murder... according to law...

I think that in this circumstance, to kill with a clean consciounce does not preclude feelings of remorse. I also think that in order to truly do so in 'clean' conscience, one must truly *search* onces conscience. If one has never qestioned the possiblity that it might *not* be the right and proper thing to do, if one can without hesitation 'pull the plug'- one has not exercised either proper for-thought, conscience, or compassion.

When faced with a decision such as this, a person should carefully consider both sides of the coin as well as searching to see if there may be another option that has not been considered. Even after a 'mercy killing' or 'assisted suicide' or whatever one wishes to call it, has been performed with proper consideration and the person truly believes that it is the right and best thing to do, if they are honest with themselves, I believe that they will admit to feeling sadness, remorse (I wish that I wouldn't have had to do that/ I wish things could have been different/ I wish that the decision had not been mine to make) and even perhaps occasionally doubting themselves. (We doubt ourselves on lesser actions all the time, why should we not doubt ourselves on something of this great consequence?)

A person who can commit a 'mercy killing' without a shred of remorse or emotion, in my opionion does not know mercy and is in fact dead inside (which may be construed, in some circomstances to be the equivalent to the term 'evil' considering that I am not a big believer in the concept of 'evil' as generally understood, but I digress.): emotionally baren (or repressed), and dangerous.

If with the killing of a person for any reason, you let your own humanity die in the process, are you not then, what would be commonly refered to as *evil*?

 

[sweetnpetite]

From the point of view of what I have said here, I think that you have not let your humanity die, though it would obvioulsy be less painful for you (and in many ways simpler) if you did.

And I think it coincideds with what Luc was saying (as well as your own words) that if you were to do so, you would find that you could in fact kill and kill with pleasure. As you say, your morality would be switched off (but could it ever be switched back on?- not at least without intense pain and anguish, for then you would have to face your actions)

I think that the message is that we all *can* switch off our humanity and must gaurd against it by realizing the possiblity and the danger. If we loose our humanity, words like morals, evil and murder really won't matter, will they?

ps. my simpathies over your situation, and my respect for your decision to keep the amimal from devouring your humanity. I hope that you have, or can someday find some peace.

I have killed someone. An 85 year-old woman didn't see my car and stepped out onto the freeway. That was over twenty years ago but I'm still a killer. It haunted me for years and I thought I could never take another life, for any reason.

During my college years, I took a little trip deep into psyche and found that not only could I kill, but that inner lizard-monkey could find pleasure in it. That animal is still there but I've never let him out. It's sort of scary knowing it's there in my subconscious, with no conscience, but part of being human is all evolution that led up to us.

It struck me that these primal instincts are the motivation for serial killers but that seems far too simplistic. I don't believe in good and evil as constructs, only consequences. It would be incorrect to label a person or motivations as either good or evil but the actions could be. I know that morality and ethics can be turned off as easily as a light switch for some people. Actually, all people under the right circumstances.

 

[sweetnpetite]

For all that you have said here, you have my great respect.

I am in agreement and think that your words are wise.

A person with no remorse, whatever the circomstances may be is a scary person indeed.

Personal thoughts on killing and murder.

To me these are two seperate concepts, even though they deal with the taking of another life. In my most humble opinion, to kill is to take another life, and feel remorse for it no matter what the circumstances are. Murder on the other hand is the taking of another life without feeling the remorse.

That being said, I have known many people who have taken anothers life. either in self defense as a civilian, or in defense of others either as a Soldier or as a Law Officer. Out of these many people I only met one who didn't feel remorse for what they had done, and that person is one I want nothing to do with.

Even the him or me argument doesn't stand up to this. If a person kills another in self defense and doesn't feel remorse, it's an even bet I can find a way out of the situation that person didn't take because they didn't want to.

The Indians said it best when they prayed to the spirits of the animals they killed for food. They asked for forgiveness for killing the animal.

Now as to the other question of wether or not I believe I am capable of killing. Yes I am, and I have. I also pay for it every day I am alive. Am capable of doing so again? Yes, if the situation warrants it, and I will pay for that life as well. On the same note, I do not hunt forfun. If I need food and can see no other way to get it then I will hunt, but only then.

Cat

 

[sweetnpetite]

I have one basic rule: touch my kids and I will do what I have to do.

Like Colly said, murder is premeditated. I couldn't do that, to much to think about...but then again, I contradict myself. If someone brought grave harm to my children, I would methodically think on how to dispose of them.

I would to, but I think after the fact with blood on my hands, I would feel, at least very frightened by my own actions. I just don't think one could imagine the after effects of such an act on you phyche until it is done. But I doubt that they could be positive.

****
edited to add:

And in the moments after the act, when your mind begins to clear, and you realize that it won't bring your loved ones back...

I can only imagine, for myself, insanity. I cannot imagine feeling vindicated, because now you are left with nothing but your loss- that emptieness that you are now forced to face, and no one left to rage against -to mask your pain-, and additionally your own actions to compoud the problem- no one now to rage against accept yourself.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by bad_girl23
Morality is relative. That's all I have to say.

...or absolute. All I can say.

 

[sweetnpetite]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by bad_girl23
Morality is relative. That's all I have to say.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...or absolute. All I can say.

Or none of the above.

All I can say.

 

[minsue]

Leaving morality aside (as is often done when frequenting a porn site ), I'm just here to say I just noticed your location, Luc, and laughed my ass off.



(OK, I suppose I do have to answer seeing as I'm here and I have an opinion on anything and everything under the sun....I could kill a person, under certain circumstances, but I could never do so without guilt, without being torn apart inside, and would likely not last long after doing so. It doesn't matter how or why. Accident, self defence, etc. I know myself and I wouldn't survive it, regardless of the circumstance.)

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Leaving morality aside (as is often done when frequenting a porn site ), I'm just here to say I just noticed your location, Luc, and laughed my ass off.



(OK, I suppose I do have to answer seeing as I'm here and I have an opinion on anything and everything under the sun....I could kill a person, under certain circumstances, but I could never do so without guilt, without being torn apart inside, and would likely not last long after doing so. It doesn't matter how or why. Accident, self defence, etc. I know myself and I wouldn't survive it, regardless of the circumstance.)

I thank you. I have a much more nuanced and vehement anti-pants position.

 

[Belegon]

I had gotten so used to the City of Dis I did not even notice...