the marks of a slave

[eastern sun]

i have never equated the two. When i say to be their vessel i was not speaking of a man but of an organization which benefits men.

Oh. Now I'm really curious . . . what do you mean by that? What kind of organization are you referring to? A part of the patriarchal system you mentioned earlier?

 

[eastern sun]

Any way, I don't mean to interupt, but eastern sun spotted me posting old memories on the coming out of hiding thread and asked me to post one here.

After much cerebral flatulence, I decided instead to dig up something i wrote a long long time ago... during the months after my first tentatively deliberate explorations of my submissive side...

It's essentially a journal entry, written not long after I'd stopped being able to keep a journal.

I'm sorry you've felt such pain, Stag, especially when your feelings have turned against yourself. I think a number of us here in this forum have a complicated relationship with our own pain and suffering. Masochism defies most people's "natural" instincts.

I'm going to suggest, though, that if you're inclined to seek out this kind of emotional and physical pain, you have to be your own best friend to make sure you aren't being hurt.

I hope you don't mind. I want to share the posts that caught my attention.

randomly remembering a Mistress letting me scrawl spiralishly swirling stripes on the bottom of her foot with a sharpie, which i did while listening (and singing with) the music in my headphones. Matchbox 20's mad season i think.

I remember looking up in the middle of it to see Her laughing at me, and suddenly feeling small and self conscious, before being ushered back to my art.

The other Mistress was sooo bewildered by the strange footprints in the kitchen, which She made me clean of course.

One of the things that got stepped on though was the lid to my dice box, which kept the design for nearly two years.

huh. wonder what brought that to surface.

howz everyone around here?

Remembering a different time with that same Mistress; in the shower. I'm pretty sure we werent doing anything particularly kinky, just washing. I dont remember why then, but she was sitting on the side of the tub and i was sitting on the floor, my head cuddled against Her stomach.

I remember feeling insignificantly small, yet cherished, like a child. That inexplicable wave of subspace came over me as i looked up through the steam. A physcial sensation, like shrinking. "i love you Mistress," i barely managed without stamemring.

"I love you too boy," She replied. It was the first time I had sub-space with Her in person.

I love the quality of the devotion you offered your Mistresses, and the way you describe feeling "small."

 

[intothewoods]

I'm not so sure about learning something from me, but I'll be glad to pass the story on. I've definitely learned a lot from you and this thread.

He knows I've struggled with this aspect of who I am for a long time. I finally asked him if I could serve him in full capacity as a house slave, instead of just as an occasional fucktoy pet, possibly with even the option to move in once my lease runs out, if we think it'll be a good fit come August.

He was proud of me for facing my fears about who and what I am and finally having the courage to admit that service fulfills me deeply. He was also proud of me for finally approaching him with it. It made me happy, too, honestly.

This is really so sweet!

On the God's vessel thing. I'm more or less agnostic about the existence of God (culturally Jewish, more or less observant, reconstructionist not ortho or anything), but there was a point early on when I was discussing M/s with someone that made me feel like the whole thing was untenable because I would be treating the M like God. I'm not making a commentary about M/s relationships - I wasn't in one - more that conceptually I can't use language about a man that was what I was raised to use for God. You know, if I questioned whether there was an all-knowing, all-powerful creator, how could I not question that with a man? My brain just threw up a roadblock and there it's stood ever since.

 

[zoe8]

It's interesting to me that religion comes up in discussion of D/s. I am presently agnostic but if there is a better word for "I have no idea what I think" then please let me know.

When I first started reading discussion boards and blogs about the D/s dynamic I was intrigued by the capitalization of someone's PYL... mostly the capitalization of Him or He because this immediately triggered the memory of my deeply religious aunt who always capitalizes these pronouns when speaking of God. I didn't think someone was trying to replace their god with their PYL but connection was clear.

Also when doing some quick Google searches on female submission I was overwhelmed by religious blogs and articles. I actually had to use -god in my Google search to get anything besides religious content.

It seems to me that submission to your husband is an old religious ideal. While I know most religions forbid worshiping false idols and so on... it seems to me that commitment to another is welcomed.

The sacrifice of self that comes from a committed D/s relationship seems to me like something a God would want. Unfaltering service to a loved one, is in my mind, almost a religious pursuit.

 

[eastern sun]

This is really so sweet!

On the God's vessel thing. I'm more or less agnostic about the existence of God (culturally Jewish, more or less observant, reconstructionist not ortho or anything), but there was a point early on when I was discussing M/s with someone that made me feel like the whole thing was untenable because I would be treating the M like God. I'm not making a commentary about M/s relationships - I wasn't in one - more that conceptually I can't use language about a man that was what I was raised to use for God. You know, if I questioned whether there was an all-knowing, all-powerful creator, how could I not question that with a man? My brain just threw up a roadblock and there it's stood ever since.

I have always felt like I was on shaky ground when I confused the two. And I have at times felt like I was serving Him in lieu of serving God.

Going back to my friend who's in an abusive D/s relationship - I can watch her place Him between herself and God, so that she's unable to hear or see anything but Him. She's lost touch with her own inner wisdom. It's as though He stands between her and the light and she is lost in his shadow.

It's very painful to watch, as her health is rapidly failing and her emotional life is erratic and incredibly violent. Her children too are suffering.

I think it's always important for me to remember that M/s is primarily a sexual dynamic, that eroticizes the rest of life. But above and beyond that dynamic is the importance of spiritual, emotional and physical health.

Having not chosen a celibate life, I have no trouble working these sexual desires into my spiritual life as long as I don't lose perspective. Because the nature of the M/s dynamic is all-encompassing, I do lose perspective from time to time, especially when I want to avoid something I'm glimpsing in the heart of it all - but those experiences, when I've dug myself into a rut and have to find my way back out again, are some of the more interesting and growth-inspiring of them all.

 

[eastern sun]

It's interesting to me that religion comes up in discussion of D/s. I am presently agnostic but if there is a better word for "I have no idea what I think" then please let me know.

When I first started reading discussion boards and blogs about the D/s dynamic I was intrigued by the capitalization of someone's PYL... mostly the capitalization of Him or He because this immediately triggered the memory of my deeply religious aunt who always capitalizes these pronouns when speaking of God. I didn't think someone was trying to replace their god with their PYL but connection was clear.

Also when doing some quick Google searches on female submission I was overwhelmed by religious blogs and articles. I actually had to use -god in my Google search to get anything besides religious content.

It seems to me that submission to your husband is an old religious ideal. While I know most religions forbid worshiping false idols and so on... it seems to me that commitment to another is welcomed.

The sacrifice of self that comes from a committed D/s relationship seems to me like something a God would want. Unfaltering service to a loved one, is in my mind, almost a religious pursuit.

I agree with you, zoe8. And I think it's a noble one.

Because I am an addict/alcoholic with a number of years of recovery, I am all too aware of ways I can confuse devotion and ritual and sexual release with mental obsession and addictive behavior. It's one of the reasons I think and talk about spirituality all the time.

******************************************

I wrote this a while ago on the worshipping of false idols -


waking to the emptiness of prayers to a false idol

mistaking her thoughts for yours
words echo off the walls of the chasm
who can save her from the pain that she creates
when no one else is there?

why would she seek again to flee the sun
and linger in the cave
to slide on stones where mossy thoughts have grown
to dive into that deep cool pool of tears

except to quench the burning ache
to call lost voices from the grave
to relive dreams devoured by time
to drown in memories that might have been

********************************************

The problem with worshipping false idols is the horrible emptiness that fills their space when the bubble pops. That emptiness is dark and frightening - the sudden realization that the things you've dedicated yourself to for years, sometimes, are ultimately phantoms and/or demons, useless fantasies or self-destructive forces. False idols can't save you from the darkness in yourself. Even if they do make you cum. And the paths they point to in the darkness don't lead to reliable sources of light.

 

[eastern sun]

I'm not so sure about learning something from me, but I'll be glad to pass the story on. I've definitely learned a lot from you and this thread.

He knows I've struggled with this aspect of who I am for a long time. I finally asked him if I could serve him in full capacity as a house slave, instead of just as an occasional fucktoy pet, possibly with even the option to move in once my lease runs out, if we think it'll be a good fit come August.

He was proud of me for facing my fears about who and what I am and finally having the courage to admit that service fulfills me deeply. He was also proud of me for finally approaching him with it. It made me happy, too, honestly.

When will you begin your service as a house slave? If you've begun already, what do you think?

Eroticizing domestic service is an interesting experience. . . .

 

[ataxia.girl]

Oh. Now I'm really curious . . . what do you mean by that? What kind of organization are you referring to? A part of the patriarchal system you mentioned earlier?

mormons

 

[JMohegan]

On the God's vessel thing. I'm more or less agnostic about the existence of God (culturally Jewish, more or less observant, reconstructionist not ortho or anything), but there was a point early on when I was discussing M/s with someone that made me feel like the whole thing was untenable because I would be treating the M like God. I'm not making a commentary about M/s relationships - I wasn't in one - more that conceptually I can't use language about a man that was what I was raised to use for God. You know, if I questioned whether there was an all-knowing, all-powerful creator, how could I not question that with a man? My brain just threw up a roadblock and there it's stood ever since.

My observation of those kinky relationships, in which the God analogy is embraced, is that the relationships are mostly fantasy based. Almost entirely conducted through online or other remote interaction, where the adoring s has both the opportunity, and the necessity, of filling in considerable gaps as far as reality goes.

This actually makes sense, if you think about it. Since God is unknown and unknowable without human imagination, and God's will is whatever a human imagines it to be, then the analogy to filling in the gaps of reality is actually a good one.

Looking at this from the other side of the coin, I'm extremely wary of adulation that doesn't seem balanced. I find it far more erotic, and ultimately satisfying, to be loved not as a placeholder for a fantasy figure but as an actual, flawed human being.

 

[Netzach]

My observation of those kinky relationships, in which the God analogy is embraced, is that the relationships are mostly fantasy based. Almost entirely conducted through online or other remote interaction, where the adoring s has both the opportunity, and the necessity, of filling in considerable gaps as far as reality goes.

This actually makes sense, if you think about it. Since God is unknown and unknowable without human imagination, and God's will is whatever a human imagines it to be, then the analogy to filling in the gaps of reality is actually a good one.

Looking at this from the other side of the coin, I'm extremely wary of adulation that doesn't seem balanced. I find it far more erotic, and ultimately satisfying, to be loved not as a placeholder for a fantasy figure but as an actual, flawed human being.

I'm only ok with it in a St. Paul kind of way. Not as myself but as God(des in my case) in myself. Divine things periodically come and roost in this very unremarkable squishy body. But I don't have the expectation to always have them at the forefront of all interaction - they often leave too and then I'm just an immature little shit telling you to lick my tennis shoes.

Incidentally, Divine things often come and roost in the prostrate form of the middle aged middle class dude willing to do anything and everything to make me happy - the notion that the D is higher on the chain rather than each embodying the Divine (Netzach has Hod, after all) really bugs the fuck out of me. M/s is ritual enactment on the basest Jungian kind of levels, perhaps. If it is, it's a very boring show with one player.

Which doesn't really make me more or less extraordinary than any other human woman, a point I try and drive home too. I know that sounds absurdly FemSupremacist weirdo, and I'm not a Goddess person what the fuck so ever in any other context, so who knows what that's about.

 

[eastern sun]

mormons

May I ask? Were you raised as a mormon?

 

[eastern sun]

My observation of those kinky relationships, in which the God analogy is embraced, is that the relationships are mostly fantasy based. Almost entirely conducted through online or other remote interaction, where the adoring s has both the opportunity, and the necessity, of filling in considerable gaps as far as reality goes.

This actually makes sense, if you think about it. Since God is unknown and unknowable without human imagination, and God's will is whatever a human imagines it to be, then the analogy to filling in the gaps of reality is actually a good one.

Looking at this from the other side of the coin, I'm extremely wary of adulation that doesn't seem balanced. I find it far more erotic, and ultimately satisfying, to be loved not as a placeholder for a fantasy figure but as an actual, flawed human being.

I agree with you on both counts, JMohegan.

 

[BiBunny]

When will you begin your service as a house slave? If you've begun already, what do you think?

Eroticizing domestic service is an interesting experience. . . .

Soon, I hope. I have a few things to take care of first.

I've done a little domestic service for him before. It's not a totally new thing. I think it's more the mindset of it that will be different rather than the actual tasks at hand, if that makes any sense.

 

[eastern sun]

I'm only ok with it in a St. Paul kind of way. Not as myself but as God(des in my case) in myself. Divine things periodically come and roost in this very unremarkable squishy body.

Which doesn't really make me more or less extraordinary than any other human woman, a point I try and drive home too. I know that sounds absurdly FemSupremacist weirdo, and I'm not a Goddess person what the fuck so ever in any other context, so who knows what that's about.

What do you mean by in a "St. Paul kind of way"? Who's St. Paul? (Listen to my ignorance here. . .) Did he believe that he was possessed by the Holy Spirit? or channeling the divine?

I don't doubt for a moment that the divine has roosted in your body, Netzach. I'd love to hear what that feels like from your perspective.

And I also agree that it doesn't make you any different than any other woman.

 

[ataxia.girl]

May I ask? Were you raised as a mormon?

Yup. Pioneer breeding stock. Yay for me!

 

[Homburg]

Looking at this from the other side of the coin, I'm extremely wary of adulation that doesn't seem balanced. I find it far more erotic, and ultimately satisfying, to be loved not as a placeholder for a fantasy figure but as an actual, flawed human being.

"Worship" me as a man? Yes, sure, I'm fine with that. But if you worship me as a god, you are not seeing me as me. You are worshipping some internal construct that you are laying on me.

I have to agree with you, JM. It's better the human way.

--

Incidentally, Divine things often come and roost in the prostrate form of the middle aged middle class dude willing to do anything and everything to make me happy - the notion that the D is higher on the chain rather than each embodying the Divine (Netzach has Hod, after all) really bugs the fuck out of me. M/s is ritual enactment on the basest Jungian kind of levels, perhaps. If it is, it's a very boring show with one player.

Yes. This.

I really cannot express it better than to say that I understand and agree wholly.

 

[rosco rathbone]

"Worship" me as a man? Yes, sure, I'm fine with that. But if you worship me as a god, you are not seeing me as me. .

What? You mean you don't want to be showered with obsessive love, praise and devotion until your partner's paranoia, self-loathing and fear of rejection and abandonment eventually lead her to alternately push you away and pull you closer in a love/hate cycle leading to infidelity and consensual sexual violence?

What's wrong with you?

 

[Netzach]

What do you mean by in a "St. Paul kind of way"? Who's St. Paul? (Listen to my ignorance here. . .) Did he believe that he was possessed by the Holy Spirit? or channeling the divine?

I don't doubt for a moment that the divine has roosted in your body, Netzach. I'd love to hear what that feels like from your perspective.

And I also agree that it doesn't make you any different than any other woman.

Paul was orginally Saul of Tarsus, an early convert who wrote a bunch of letters to local early Christians about how to be better Christians, which are a large cornerstone of the NT and Christian thought of all stripes. They're also some incredible pieces of literature, and very much worth reading. "Love is patient, Love is Kind" is nearly impossible not to encounter.

"I say this to you not of myself but by the word of Christ in me" is the pull quote, and yes, he's doing that neat trick that the clergy has done for centuries speaking "ex cathedra" or divinely, rather than mundanely, though capable of both. Actually this is the cornerstone of just about every religion other than Taoism or animist religions in which you can go talk to the rock and the tree if you need to go talk to the Divine just fine, you don't need a specialist.

I'm more inclined to think about things like Knossos and oracles and the classical world. As for how it "feels" well, giant massive surges of adrenaline that will make me sick if I do it too much is probably the best explanation. Scenes with a slight taste of dissociation perhaps, though not disengagement. Rather than feeling like I'm not in control I feel like I'm watching and controlling the entirety of what goes on.

 

[Netzach]

What? You mean you don't want to be showered with obsessive love, praise and devotion until your partner's paranoia, self-loathing and fear of rejection and abandonment eventually lead her to alternately push you away and pull you closer in a love/hate cycle leading to infidelity and consensual sexual violence?

What's wrong with you?

Zing. Totally.

 

[eastern sun]

Paul was orginally Saul of Tarsus, an early convert who wrote a bunch of letters to local early Christians about how to be better Christians, which are a large cornerstone of the NT and Christian thought of all stripes.

"I say this to you not of myself but by the word of Christ in me" is the pull quote, and yes, he's doing that neat trick that the clergy has done for centuries speaking "ex cathedra" or divinely, rather than mundanely, though capable of both.

I'm more inclined to think about things like Knossos and oracles and the classical world. As for how it "feels" well, giant massive surges of adrenaline that will make me sick if I do it too much is probably the best explanation.

Thank you, Netzach. I've felt something similar.

May I ask what precedes those moments? And whether the energy flows predictably in one direction or another?

I'm guess I'm wondering whether the Dominant's and the submissive's energy is moving in different patterns in these moments. Or whether it's the same regardless of D/s orientation.

My energy tends to rise from the base of my spine. And I'm wondering if Dominant's ever feel the energy descending from the crown of their head.

(Should I be embarrassed now? . . . Are my hippie roots showing?. . . Should I just go back to the laundry that's waiting downstairs?. . . . He's gonna take one look at this conversation especially in the middle of the day and I'm gonna pay. )

But this kind of thing really interests me.

 

[satindesire]

What? You mean you don't want to be showered with obsessive love, praise and devotion until your partner's paranoia, self-loathing and fear of rejection and abandonment eventually lead her to alternately push you away and pull you closer in a love/hate cycle leading to infidelity and consensual sexual violence?

What's wrong with you?

Boy that sounds like a great Springer episode plug.

Thank you, Netzach. I've felt something similar.
*Snip*

You should totally get a bible if you don't have one sweetheart. Even if you're atheist or agnostic, it's a wonderful read in some parts!

 

[eastern sun]

What? You mean you don't want to be showered with obsessive love, praise and devotion until your partner's paranoia, self-loathing and fear of rejection and abandonment eventually lead her to alternately push you away and pull you closer in a love/hate cycle leading to infidelity and consensual sexual violence?

What's wrong with you?

Is this, like, a regular thing? Can't you see it coming after the first one?

You seem like the kind of guy who kind of likes an excuse for consensual sexual violence.

 

[ataxia.girl]

"Worship" me as a man? Yes, sure, I'm fine with that. But if you worship me as a god, you are not seeing me as me. You are worshipping some internal construct that you are laying on me.

Some religions teach that serving your man IS service to God. Your man sits between you and God as a conduit. He is your access to God. Its highly unhealthy. i do not recommend.

 

[eastern sun]

You should totally get a bible if you don't have one sweetheart. Even if you're atheist or agnostic, it's a wonderful read in some parts!

My parents rejected their Christian upbringing, and taught me nothing whatsoever. But I do have my grandmother's bible and have read it, though not cover to cover.

A week before I got married, our house burned down, and I lost almost everything I owned. My grandmother's bible was in a gold cardboard box, and as I rummaged through the ashes, I was astonished to see that though the box was blackened and charred, the bible emerged completely untouched, its gilt-edged pages glistening like a jewel in the sooty ash.

 

[satindesire]

Is this, like, a regular thing? Can't you see it coming after the first one?

You seem like the kind of guy who kind of likes an excuse for consensual sexual violence.

Yeah, that's RR for ya.

My parents rejected their Christian upbringing, and taught me nothing whatsoever. But I do have my grandmother's bible and have read it, though not cover to cover.

A week before I got married, our house burned down, and I lost almost everything I owned. My grandmother's bible was in a gold cardboard box, and as I rummaged through the ashes, I was astonished to see that though the box was blackened and charred, the bible emerged completely untouched, its gilt-edged pages glistening like a jewel in the sooty ash.

Wow, freaky! What a cool little mini miracle. I'm so sorry about your house...that is so sad! Everyone got out okay, right?