The Male Form:

[ElectricBlue]

You write “I have never seen anything beautiful in any male.”

I remember going to see The Police live, back in 1984, and thinking Sting (then 33) was a spectacularly beautiful man. Because of the bright stage lights, he wore black kohl under his eyes, and with his short blond hair, goodness me! And then Jim Morrison, in his Young Lion phase.... I'm a hetero male, but those guys, they were beautiful, for sure.

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

Electric Blue, as before I thank you for your contributions.

Moonlight and Roses,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

To summarize my most recent posts: First it is my opinion that humans are not born with a predisposition to experience the human form, female or male, nude or not nude as being ugly and it is likely that humans are born with a predisposition to tend to experience the human form, female or male, nude or not nude as being attractive and in some cases beautiful in an asexual way. This would mean that humans are born with a predisposition to tend to experience pleasure when viewing the human form, female or male, nude or not nude. Further, I believe that while females and males differ, their differences are not huge and they are not polar opposites.

In addition it is my opinion that people tend to be products of their time and place and to some extent products of the past in that the past somewhat determines the present. I then asserted that the reason females, in particular the nude female tends to be considered more attractive (beautiful) than males, in particular the nude male is due to nature of our current society and culture and the nature of our current society and culture is somewhat due to the nature of past societies and cultures, in particular the society and culture of the 19th century. The nature of the 19th century society and culture that I emphasized was that:

1. Women were treated as second class citizens.

2. Husbands have to trust their wives as to whether their children are really their children.

3. Nudity was seen as being vulgar.

4. The phobia concerning male homosexuality and straight men not wanting to be perceived as gay

This does not mean that feeling that females are more beautiful than males is wrong, feelings are what they are and cannot be wrong, but that feeling is not natural to humans meaning people are not born with a predisposition to feel that females are more beautiful than males. Now at least two of those factors – 1. Women were treated as second class citizens and 3. Nudity was seen as being vulgar – has lessened since the 19th century. If I am correct in what I have outlined then we would expect to see women start to pay to see naked or partly naked men as entertainment and I have pointed out that is what has been happening since the 1970s. The change is somewhat limited due to what I call social inertia, that is society and culture change slowly.

Moonlight and Roses,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

I have provided what I feel is evidence that the naked male is becoming more appreciated and I stated an explanation as to why that would be expected given the changes in our society in particular the improvement in the status of women and the greater acceptance of nudity in general. Here are three new bits of evidence that I feel suggests that there is a greater acceptance of nudity and that in particular the naked male is become more accepted if not more appreciated. These are ESPN magazine’s "Body Issue," Discovery Channel’s "Naked and Afraid" and VH1’s “Dating Naked.” Now the images in the magazine and in these TV shows are censured to some degree, but the people shown are nude. Also it seems to me that they show both women and men somewhat equally. Thus women and men are shown in the same way. Since the magazine and the TV shows are made to attract viewers it seems that many people want to see the male nude in ways that they did not want to see before that is in the same way as they want to see the female nude.

Moonlight and Roses,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

This post could go either in this thread “The Male Form” or in the thread “Women,” as it is about women artists who depict the male nude. All of these female artists listed were born prior to the 20th century.

Harriet Hosmer sculptor was born in 1830, in Massachusetts, USA: “A Sleeping Faun” (1867): http://www.augustastylianougallery.com/Gallery/HarrietHosmer/SleepingFaun.html

Henrietta Rae painter was born in Hammersmith, England in 1859: “Zephyrus Wooing Flora” (c. 1888): http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyukm7cQOl1qkevp7o1_500.jpg

Camille Claudel sculptor was born in France in 1864: “La Valse/Les Valseurs” (“The Waltz/The Waltzers”) (1889 to 1905): http://img.estadao.com.br/resources/jpg/7/1/1415258595517.jpg

Frances Johnston photographer was born in Grafton, West Virginia in 1864: “Man posed on rocks, nude, playing pipes (Pan):” http://25.media.tumblr.com/55b6689c61749eccef441a42ac017cc6/tumblr_mwtm2h4SUy1radmcao1_500.jpg

Suzanne Valadon painter was born poor in 1865 in France: “Casting the Net” 1914: http://www.exponaute.com/magazine/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/filet.jpg

Gertrude Vanderbilt Whitney sculptor was born in 1875 in New York City: male nude 1913: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/hb/hb_22.81.jpg

Harriet Whitney Frishmuth sculptor born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in 1880: “Slavonic Dancer” (1921): http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h2/h2_23.106.3.jpg

Moonlight and Roses,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

A commonality between the tropic “The Male Form” and the tropic “Women” is my belief that while humans are born with a predisposition toward certain behaviors and feelings about things, much is also determined by the culture a person is brought up in. I believe that people are born with a predisposition to be interested in stories, but in our culture, at least in terms of movies, people seem not as interested in stories about females. Also, while I believe that people are born with a predisposition to find other humans attractive, in our culture people are more likely to find the female form more attractive than the male. The Wodaade is a nomadic society living in north central Africa and their culture is interesting in regard to the issue of male beauty.

The following link goes to an article by “Messy Nessy” entitled “The Male Beauty Contest of the Sahara Desert.” It is about the Wodaade. The initial line in the article is “The beauty standards and criteria aren’t all that different from your typical beauty pageant, except in the nomadic Wodaade tribe of Niger, it’s the girls who get to judge the boys.” Further down it is stated that “In the case of the unmarried judges, they’ll also be scoping out potential husbands and often have favourite contestants sent to their encampment to get a ‘closer look.’” The judges are tribeswomen and “The ladies are looking for the most beautiful face, the tallest and most graceful, the best dressed, flashing the brightest eyes and the biggest, whitest smile in the lineup.” The men wear makeup and wear a long feather on the top of their head. Here is the link with pictures: http://www.messynessychic.com/2015/09/29/the-male-beauty-contest-of-the-sahara-desert/.

Next is an article from National Geographic see here: http://www.natgeotraveller.co.uk/destinations/africa/chad/chad-african-beauty/. And at the next link can be found the first two chapters of the “Nomads who cultivate Beauty: Wiodaabe Dances and Visual Arts in Niger” by Mette Bovin. The first paragraph states: “The first thing a young man does in the morning (after checking the animals), is to look into his small mirror! He puts black mascara around his eyes, and most certainly black lipstick on his mouth . . .” See here: https://books.google.com/books?id=C...s Who Cultivate Beauty by Mette Bovin&f=false

What is so interesting to me is that this shows how different societies can be in their determination as to what is beautiful. I would guess that most people, from our culture, looking at the pictures of these Wodaade men would feel they are anything, but beautiful and might even think the look like women. But there it is.

Moonlight and Roses,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

Of the various combinations of female or male artists depicting a nude female or nude male subject it seems to me that a female artist depicting a nude male subject is the least common. Further, as there are so many more famous male artists as compared to female artists I prefer to highlight female artists. So, here are two female photographers who have regularly photographed the male nude.

First is Vivienne Maricevic, in an article by Amy Sohn, from the New York Magazine see here http://nymag.com/nymetro/nightlife/sex/columns/nakedcity/n_8663/ it is revealed that the artist has photographed close to 1,000 men (as of the date of the article), she “. . . acknowledges that she gets a voyeuristic thrill out of her work . . .” and that she is “. . . trying to put more male nudes into popular culture so they can be as accepted as female nudes . . .” When asked “Do you ever get turned on?” Vivienne Maricevic is quoted as saying “No, not sexually, the way I am with my husband. I might get a little flushed in the cheeks. It’s an endorphin rush. If I can have a happy relationship and get a rush from my work too, then why not?” Her website of pictures of naked men is described as “For Women By A Woman” and her photographs have been published in several collections in Europe and the U.S. Here is an image of the front of her book “She Shoots Men:” http://www.schifferbooks.com/images/covers/04/978-0-7643-4510-4.jpg.

Next we have Dianora Niccolini, a female photographer who was born in Florence, Italy, in 1938. Her works were exhibited in a show called “The Male Nude” at the Third Eye Gallery in 1975. Here is a series of Dianora Niccolini’s works, photographs of the male nude in black and white, scroll down or click on the arrows to see more: http://www.thefrasergallery.com/artists/DianoraNiccolini-artwork12.html. And here is her website with mostly pictures of the male nude. Click on “The Male” in the menu to the right to reach these pictures: http://www.dianoraniccolini.com/. Also in the menu to the right on that website is a link to “My Photo History.” This is by Dianora Niccolini and in it she writes “I am a fine art photographer and considered by many to be the female pioneer of the male nude in photography, a trend setter” and a little further on she asserts that “. . . the male nude became stigmatized!” She also writes “In photographing gorgeous naked men, I can safely look at young( 21+) handsome naked hunks without getting involved... It is much more acceptable to be a voyer (sic) with a camera than one without it!” Further on she explains that “Growing up in Florence (Italy), gave me a very different perspective on nudes than most Americans. The streets of Florence are filled with statues of both naked men, women . . and even children (as cherubins etc.). The museums house most of the great art of the renaissance and Michaelangelo’s work was my favorite! I loved his statues of men with their powerfully muscular bodies. It is no wonder, then, that I chose and still choose to photograph muscular men in their prime. I love to make them look like statues.”

Moonlight and Roses,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

Just because a nude body has a penis doesn’t mean it cannot be seen as beautiful.

Moonlight and Roses,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

In the topic “Women” I wrote about Edouard Manet’s 1862 painting “Le dejeuner sur l’herbe” see commented #159. Here are four “Reverse Le dejeuner sur l’herbes:”

The first is my favorite and is by Mara McAffee. Born in 1929 she was an artist, actresses and dancer and as an artist produced a number of illustrations based on classical painting. See here: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c8/59/83/c859834ceaba3a315b8596c4756b5bfe.jpg.

Next is a photographic work, entitled “Ode to Manet’s Dejeuner sur l’herbe” by Elizabeth Kleinveld and Epaul Julien, who have collaborated on a number of works copying famous paintings, but with subjects of different sexes or races. See here: https://a.1stdibscdn.com/archivesE/..._to_Manet_s_Dejeuner_sur_lHerbe_E2_master.jpg.

This third photographic work is by Vadim T. and is somewhat different: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/29/d8/c7/29d8c7bd3f8dd24c64b6aa20b89f66f4.jpg

Finally we have a strange painted version by Ron English: https://dotmsrstaging.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/uploads/uploads/69970.jpg.

Moonlight and Roses,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

I am not going to add to this topic, possibly temporarily or possibly permanently and now plan to post to the politics board either in “Goggle Doodle” or in a new topic for the time being.

Moonlight and Roses (Tom)

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

I found a video of Cecily Brown discussing the painting “Young Spartans Exercising” by Edgar Degas c. 1860. (See here for an image of the painting: https://fineartbiblio.com/images/large/x66loi43qj77wotd/edgar-degas-young-spartans-exercising.jpeg) In the video she states that it “almost seems to be a coming-of-age painting. It’s very much, you know, youths on the verge of adulthood. I was struck by how timeless it was when I was even in the park last summer . . . and I saw these bunch of teenagers mucking about and the girls sort of going up and hitting the boys and running away and I thought, it’s just the ‘Young Spartans,’ 21st Century.” Further on she talks about the “. . . almost erotic expression on the second boy’s face. But there’s almost this sort of faux arrogance. You feel that it really captures that, you know, boys that . . . they’re trying to be more confident than they really feel. You know, they’re sort of, they’re mocking, but you feel that they’re actually intimidated in that way that boys are with girls around that age.” See here for video just under 4 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkHpzk0o-R8.

What I am struck with in Cecily Brown’s description is how she relates this image, with its nudity, to present day young people. That is despite the girls’ and boys’ dress or rather undress their behavior is “timeless” and there is an appearance that it is perfectly acceptable (there seems to be adults in the background who do not see anything inappropriate). Now this painting was produced during the 19th century and it may not be an accurate representation in regard to the normality of the semi or total nudity of the classical Greek period, but based on what I know of that period it maybe.

What I also find interesting is the following from the second paragraph of a rather long article by Martha Lucy see here: http://www.19thc-artworldwide.org/spring03/222-reading-the-animal-in-degass-young-spartans. “Degas's notes tell us that the picture represents two groups of adolescents on the plains of Sparta, with the elderly Lycurgus and their mothers in the background. Long thought to be a scene of competition between the sexes, it is now generally regarded as a depiction of ancient courtship rituals, thanks to Carol Salus's careful iconographic study . . . In her interpretation the gesture of the lunging girl is understood as one of enticement rather than provocation . . .” As to whether it is a depiction of competition or courtship I feel it can be both. Young people unsure of the reaction or acceptance of the opposite sex may tease and dare until they feel more comfortable.

So two things, one is idea of what is being depicted as both being unlike our own culture in regard to the state of dress of the young people, but also like our own culture in regard to the timelessness of the courtship and the idea of the nudity or semi-nudity being completely appropriate. I like the idea of a story where public nudity is not only appropriate, but appreciated.

Moonlight and Roses,

 

[SusanJillParker]

Alas, it's a shame that we all can't be naked in public.

Perhaps, if we were all naked in public, that would be the best way to determine if someone was lying.

"You said that you're a public servant, Senator, and that by passing a law of eminent domain to tear down these buildings and displace hundreds of residents will not personally reward you financially," said the reporter.

"Yes, that's true. I won't make a dime from this project. I'm only passing this law for the good of the people and in the spirit of progress."

"Then," said the reporter staring down at the senator's naked cock. "Why do you have an erection?"

"Um, well, ah, I'm excited...about the project, of course."

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

Susan, the concept of nudity always intrigued me. As I grow older I began to think more and more how strange it is that there is a taboo on showing some parts of the human body. I believe that people are born with a predisposition to experience the naked human body as attractive in an asexual way and that many people are born with a predisposition to like being naked in public. It seems to me that we “learn” to feel differently.

Moonlight and Roses,

 

[SusanJillParker]

Susan, the concept of nudity always intrigued me. As I grow older I began to think more and more how strange it is that there is a taboo on showing some parts of the human body. I believe that people are born with a predisposition to experience the naked human body as attractive in an asexual way and that many people are born with a predisposition to like being naked in public. It seems to me that we “learn” to feel differently.

Moonlight and Roses,

Other than graduating from college and receiving my BS in English, the most freeing and enlightening experience I ever had was participating in the swinging lifestyle with my ex-husband.

I've never been naked as much and in front of so very many people.

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

First two bits of business – one thank you Susan for your comment and second this topic has surpassed 10,000 views Hurray. My guess is that there has not been 10,000 different people who have viewed this topic and that many people have come back multiple times. This shows me that people are interested in what I write about – now this:

What is the evolutionary reason for sex? Well to start with it is for reproduction so that babies are born to replace the individuals who die and in that way continue the species. For many species it is as simple as that. But, for humans it does not seem to be that simple. Human sex does allow for reproduction, but there are cases when humans desire sex with others, but where reproduction is impossible. Two such cases is when women desire to engage in sex during the time that they cannot get pregnant and when men are attracted to women for sex when the women cannot get pregnant. This is most of the time. Second is homosexual sex. That is when individuals of the same sex desire to engage in sex with each other. Both of these situations may seem like a waste of time and energy and in many species this does not happen. But is it a waste of time and energy for humans. Put another way is there some benefits from humans having sex with another human when reproduction is impossible? I think there is.

To start humans are weak compared to other animals of the same and even smaller sizes and human babies are particularly helpless for a long period of time. To overcome this I feel that humans need to group together. Because of this it seems to me that sexual contact between humans is helpful for the survival of the species for two reasons. One is bonding and the second is to reduce conflicts. The idea is that humans feel favorably toward other humans when they experience pleasure together. Thus sex could help secure the bond and could help reduce conflicts between parental pairs. But sex, including homosexual sex could also help with the bonding and could help reduce conflicts between all members of the communal group. So, due to these factors it seems reasonable to me that humans could be born with a predisposition to not only engage in sex for the purpose of reproduction, but also engage in sex when reproduction would be impossible and this would also include the likelihood that humans are born with a predisposition for bisexuality. Now, people vary in characterizes and so it is possible that people would vary in the degree of heterosexuality and homosexuality. Most people would likely have a strong predisposition toward heterosexuality, but there could be some whose predisposition is stronger for homosexuality, however it seems to me that people are born with a predisposition for some of both and in that sense people are born with a predisposition to be bisexual to different degrees.

At one time it was felt that in regard to sexual preferences there was a “right” way and a “wrong” way, as well as a “natural” way and an “unnatural” way, but what it seems more and more is that there is a spectrum of human desires and that humans are born with a predisposition to desire, to various degrees, heterosexual and homosexual contact.

Moonlight and Roses,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

In regard to my last post in which I wrote that people may be born with a predisposition to be bisexual to different degrees, here is an article that is about an interesting study conducted in the United Kingdom. The title of the article is “Half of young people don’t identify as’100% straight’.” In the study people were asked to rate themselves on the “Kinsey scale” of sexual preference. This scale has seven levels from zero being “Exclusively heterosexual” to six being “Exclusively homosexual.” Level 1 through 5 refers to varying degrees of bisexuality. Seventy-two percent of all the adults in the study stated they were exclusively heterosexual, while only 46% of 18 to 24 year olds said the same thing. Also 18 to 24 year olds were more likely to place themselves in every other level except level 5, than all adults. One percent of both groups placed themselves in level 5. Also, exclusively heterosexual or homosexual compared to varying degrees of bisexuality was 52% to 43% for 18 to 24 year olds, 67% to 29% for 25 to 39 year olds, 81% to 16% for 40 to 59 year olds and 89% to 7% for over 60 year olds. So, this shows a general tendency away from exclusively heterosexual among 18 to 25 years olds as compared to all adults and a tendency toward bisexuality for the younger groups compared to the older groups. One explanation for this could be growing up with weaker taboos against homosexual behavior younger people are less likely to identify as exclusively heterosexual with increases in identification as bisexual. This is what I would expect to see based on the idea that people are born with a predisposition for bisexuality, but taboos against homosexuality interfere with that. You can find the article at this link: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/08/16/half-of-all-young-people-arent-100-straight/.

Moonlight and Roses,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

I wrote about the Disney Princess movies, but this post is about the Princes, in particular drawing of the Princes nude. The pictures are by Tara Jacoby and the article that they are shown in is on Jezebel and it is by Tracie Egan Morrissey. One thing I find interesting is that these male Princes are shown in poses usually associated with female nudes. Also the poses fit their personalities. Here is the link to the article: http://jezebel.com/disney-dudes-dicks-what-your-favorite-princes-look-lik-1621694437.

And here is a drawing of Li Shang from Mulan (http://img00.deviantart.net/bff9/i/...hen_____li_shang_by_tumbledheroes-da31ixm.jpg) and Prince Phillip from Sleeping Beauty: http://img12.deviantart.net/044d/i/...__prince_phillip_by_tumbledheroes-da2xagq.jpg.

Moonlight and Roses,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

I tend not to like images of heterosexual sex because many times I get the feeling that the woman is there to give pleasure to the man and that the man dominates the woman. That is the participants in the act are not equal with the women being the lesser. This is my subjective feeling and I realize not everyone may feel that way. FMM usually are even worse for me. However I have found a site with FMM where women in the pictures seem to really enjoy it and where she is equal or even somewhat dominate. In these FMM images there are male homosexual acts and heterosexual acts. Also there are both fellatio (gay and straight) and straight cunnilingus. There are some FFM images, but as far as I can see there are no lesbian acts. I get a strong feeling that in all of these images the woman or women are enjoying the men or man. Sometimes the woman is just watching the men, as far as I have seen there are no images where the women are the only ones naked. Further all participants and in particular the men are attractive and generally faces are shown. This maybe because the site is controlled by a heterosexual woman who says she “wants the male body to be the focus of my erotica or, at the very least, to have equal billing with the T & A.” See here: http://pervygirl.tumblr.com/tagged/mmf/page/2.

Moonlight and Roses,

 

[ElectricBlue]

Moonlight,

you might also appreciate this blog (predominantly male, scattered through with images of women, both genders easy on the eye):

http://male-female-beauty.tumblr.com

EB

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

Electric Blue, thanks for the nice link. I like the Female/Male equality in nudity. Excuse me for not replying earlier, I was on vacation.

Moonlight and Roses,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

The link at the end of this post goes to a cute short animated film entitled “Missed Call.” It is by Julieta Colas. The film fits this thread, but could also be in the thread “Women” as by the name the artist appears to be a woman. See here: https://vimeo.com/47797457, if you can’t view it on vimeo this link goes to the film on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R36CrVfRDis.

Moonlight and Roses,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

Earlier, on August12, in the thread “Women” I wrote about the “The Outdoor Co-ed Topless Pulp Fiction Appreciation Society” and how it is legal for women to bare their chests in New York State: http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=1395005&page=7. Well these women do more than go bare from the waist up. Last September they put on an all-female, fully nude production of William Shakespeare’s The Tempest in Central Park and Prospect Park. Well to follow that up the “Tempest directors sat down to plan an all-nude, all-male production of Hamlet” and it was shown this September in Central Park, see here: https://toplesspulp.com/ and scroll down.

Moonlight and Roses,

 

[latecomer91364]

I tend not to like images of heterosexual sex because many times I get the feeling that the woman is there to give pleasure to the man and that the man dominates the woman. That is the participants in the act are not equal with the women being the lesser. This is my subjective feeling and I realize not everyone may feel that way. FMM usually are even worse for me. However I have found a site with FMM where women in the pictures seem to really enjoy it and where she is equal or even somewhat dominate. In these FMM images there are male homosexual acts and heterosexual acts. Also there are both fellatio (gay and straight) and straight cunnilingus. There are some FFM images, but as far as I can see there are no lesbian acts. I get a strong feeling that in all of these images the woman or women are enjoying the men or man. Sometimes the woman is just watching the men, as far as I have seen there are no images where the women are the only ones naked. Further all participants and in particular the men are attractive and generally faces are shown. This maybe because the site is controlled by a heterosexual woman who says she “wants the male body to be the focus of my erotica or, at the very least, to have equal billing with the T & A.” See here: http://pervygirl.tumblr.com/tagged/mmf/page/2.

Moonlight and Roses,

I am a firm believer in this type of scale, having embraced my own bisexuality 13 years ago after divorcing - sort of an 'If not now, when?' sort of thing. I thought I would end up liking it, but I had no idea I would like it this much, and have let it lead where it goes, which in my case is full time crossdressing at home (and with my select pals) - I even sleep in my lingerie. On the scale, I feel that I'm right at the 50/50 mark physically, but 'completely heterosexual' emotionally. I could only ever love a woman, and have zero emotional ties with men, aside from friendship.

I think that ties in with my own feelings on male/female beauty. Women on the street (fully clothed, of course) turn my head, men don't. A man has to be naked and erect before I get turned on. Granted, a shirtless man with chiseled pecs would be the exception: the male form is beautiful in and of itself, even separated from the sexuality, but for me, the true 'appreciation' is all about the sex.

Loved that tumblr link: extremely sensual.

 

[Charmolypi]

I agree that the male form hasn't been given much of a chance in erotic lit. What a shame! I have read stories and everything down to the type of toes the female character has are described in detail while the description of the male's body could be a half a sentence confirming he has a cock like an anaconda. There's something to be said for leaving things to the imagination and then there's just plain ole literary neglect (or laziness? or lack of imagination? or bias?). I try to flesh out my men as much as my women. The male body is a sensual playground suited for so many titillating descriptions. I want to do it justice.

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

Late comer: I apologize for not replying sooner, I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t expect replies to my posts. I could understand people, no matter what their sexual orientation is, being relatively more attracted to clothed women as opposed to clothed men. Women just present themselves in a more attractive way as to their clothes, makeup etc. Men present themselves as being blah, with baggy clothes and short hair. That is one of the many reasons I like ballet. The male dancers are presented as being attractive. Also, thank you for mentioning the tumbir link. I do a lot of links, for example in “Dance and Near Dance” and I sometimes wonder if people view those links.

Moonlight and Roses,