The issue of intellectual property

riff

Jose Jones
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I copied the following article from InfoWorld

We the people ...
Steve Gillmor

I RECEIVED THE following response to a recent column (see "Fighting the last war," Sept. 23). The author, David H. Lynch Jr., graciously allowed me to use as much of this as I needed. Here it is, trimmed only slightly for space:

I rarely read your column. For the most part, you write about things that just do not interest me. ... In fact, way too much of the major trade press seems focused on things that are meaningless. Well, so much for insulting you and telling you that mostly you bore me.

But here you have hit on something important. You covered a broad range of related topics and only grazed some of the issues. But [those who] attempt to broaden, deepen, and strengthen intellectual property rights -- particularly the political, civil, and criminal changes we are looking at -- are not only evil and wrong, but they fail to learn from history. Organized crime in this country was created by Prohibition. Our drug laws have already cost us most of the Fourth Amendment and done little but criminalize large segments of our population. We are about to pass laws to protect greedy, monopolistic, price-fixing cartels from their own customers. Our industry in particular and way too much of business in general seems to be devolving towards trying to use the law as a way of regulating the behavior of consumers.

Intellectual property rights were a seductive idea that failed two centuries ago. Thomas Jefferson eventually concluded the effect was diametrically opposed to their purpose of protecting small authors and inventors from powerful institutions. Instead of recognizing that technology has cast a bright light on the failure of copyrights and patents, we are busily trying to reinforce their clay feet. The copyright laws of the 18th and early 19th centuries -- a time when ideas and expression held their value longer -- would have returned the works of the Beatles, even most of the music of the '70s, to the public domain. Instead, in order to protect Mickey Mouse, you need to be a lawyer and mathematician to figure out when the works of D.H. Lawrence will enter the public domain. Silent films are still copyrighted.

I prefer the moral and philosophical argument that intellectual property rights are a bad idea (maybe with good intentions) that has failed and cannot be salvaged to the more pragmatic one [that asks] why we need to pass a new set of laws to criminalize the behavior of ordinary citizens or, worse still, why we want to find a new way of disenfranchising and criminalizing our youth.

Let the RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America) and the MPA (Motion Picture Association) engage in a war of technology and wits with the youth of the world but, for God's sake, let's not commit the force of law and the resources of our government to another hopeless war against our own future.

Advancing technology does not change what is right or what is wrong. It does not convert good law to bad. It just increases the contrast and makes it more obvious that a lot of seemingly good ideas that we have made into law are not really such good ideas after all.

I am not extremely familiar with the judicial history of intellectual property rights, but it is useful to note what the Constitution that in the United States created them actually says:

"The Congress shall have power ... to promote the progress of science and useful arts ... by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive rights to their respective writings and discoveries."

While I believe our founding fathers were wrong -- that intellectual property rights do not and cannot easily be made to serve the purpose for which they were intended -- it still should be clear that the intent was to grant a brief advantage to inventors and authors, that specific public purposes had to be served by intellectual property laws, and finally that property is a misnomer. Intellectual property is owned by the public and in essence leased to authors and inventors. A temporary economic advantage for authors and inventors is created because a hopefully more valuable benefit will accrue to the public, and ultimately the lease expires and all rights return to the general public.

Economic advantage, while not inherently evil and certainly a part of the engine of commerce, is a reward to authors and inventors for contributing to "the progress of science and the useful arts." Economic advantage is not in and of itself a valid purpose or justification for copyright or patent laws. So how is science and the useful arts advanced by a massive act of public theft advanced by the entertainment industry to secure Mickey Mouse, and secured by Congress?

Presuming that there still is a useful purpose served by patents and copyrights, any economic advantage accrues very quickly today. Creative works incur over 90 percent of their economic reward within almost a few years of their release, often less. Why are we working so hard to nearly infinitely increase the duration? Intellectual property is supposed to return to the public domain.

Metallica and Disney may care about how much they collect when someone downloads their works, but I suspect that John Lennon and Janis Joplin are "happy" that a new generation is listening to their music, and I doubt that they are looking to spend any royalty checks.

I have my own moral issues with some of what goes on with p-to-p, but I am not in a great hurry to commit our national resources to protecting thieves from theft.

Thanks, David. I couldn't have said it better.



{-url-}Steve Gillmor is director of the InfoWorld Test Center. Contact him at steve_gillmor@infoworld.com.{/-url-} here
 
hey riff, i can't quite tell what your stance on this subject is or if you're just looking for input.

as a songwriter i definitely have and opinion on and a stake in the subject of copyright law. if memory serves and they haven't changed it recently, music copyright lasts for 50 years after the author's death. now, i do receive some small payment from ascap each quarter and it's more of an ego boost than a financial windfall but if things go as planned i may actually sell a couple of my songs to a couple of prominent recording artists. if that happens then my interest changes.

the sale of even one song to the right person could insure my retirement and if future sales are good or other artists cover one of my songs then it could be a substantial estate for my daughter. so i would like to see the laws, as i understand them, to stay the way they are.

as for companies like napster and others i've always made my position clear. i think that they are thieves. you can rationalize all you want. i've hear that having that many people exposed to you music will enhance sales. bullshit. if that many people can get your music for free they will.

now, my question is this. if the laws on intellectual property are changed, who benefits? right now when things go into the public domain there are many people waiting to add them to compilations, etc. and to re-publish and profit from them. and that's ok i guess. if the government gets too involved i have a suspicion that they will profit somehow. that's uncool.

anyway, if i've actually made a point it's that the system as it is, by and large, seems to work so why change it?
 
snipIntellectual property is owned by the public and in essence leased to authors and inventors.

I take exception to this interpretation of US intellectual property law.

It seems to me that my invention or creative work starts out as Mine.....then later devolves to Public Domain by operation of intellectual property law.

My Ideas are not ferae naturae taken at the pleasure of a feudal lord....they were created in my wee pea brain and are not leased to me by the guv, thanks so much.

And I believe that's what the framers meant to establish....protection for creatives that devolved to the public upon wide acceptance and the passage of time, as a check against a monopoly or tyrrany of inventors. (e.g. the attempts recently to patent a mouse)
 
unclej said:


as for companies like napster and others i've always made my position clear. i think that they are thieves. you can rationalize all you want. i've hear that having that many people exposed to you music will enhance sales. bullshit. if that many people can get your music for free they will.
So true... Myself having published books out on the market why should someone else make profit from it from the begining let alone the end. I took the time to write it and get it published....

If I opened a plumbing business, when I die should that business be handed over as public poperty... NO... the profits it is making should go to my children.
 
exactly t.h. if people had any idea of what if actually takes to get something like that done i would hope that they would have a little more respect for it.

by the way, what types of books have you written? i'm working on a do-it-yourself deck building book written in red-neck speak. i'll probably just publish it myself and offer it up for sale on line but might pick you brain sometime about getting things published.
 
unclej said:
as for companies like napster and others i've always made my position clear. i think that they are thieves. you can rationalize all you want. i've hear that having that many people exposed to you music will enhance sales. bullshit. if that many people can get your music for free they will.

How is Napster a thief? Its users - the ones trading licensed music - may or may not be thieves. However, Napster was a technology. Saying that Napster is responsible for theft is like saying the phone company is responsible if I call your house and threaten your life, or that Sony is responsible if I use one of their VCRs to "pirate" a movie off cable.

(That's no different than Napster. Have you never taped a movie off TV? Or made a tape of a CD/record for yourself or others?)

How IP relates to the BB: On the Internet, you can visit a site which offers free stuff. You can read the stories at Lit, or view nude photos. You could save them to your hard drive for your own personal enjoyment.

However, the second you post those photos or those stories on another website, you are in the wrong - especially when you do so without the permission of or acknowledgements to the artists/copyright holders involved.
 
there's always a balance

in the spreadsheets

Take the MPA or the recording industry, for instance. They find that their services as middle-men are under attack. Artists could sell and distribute their works (and are doing so) over the internet, taking a much bigger % chunk of sales for themselves. With that in mind, a 'cd' need not cost $14 - $30 .. try $5, and who would not buy it at that price?

Thus when the recording industry uses the excuse that pirating content is hurting the artists, they are double hypocrytes: they themselves hurt the artists with the % they take, and permiate the fog surrounding security of self-distribution.

I'm a big believer in trying something, and if I deem it worthy, rewarding the artist by spending the money due. I might be too much an idealist in some people's eyes thinking that honesty prevails in such transactions, but that is nonetheless what I believe. Shareware, a very abused idea on both sides, is still a great idea. Why shouldn't music or film be treated the same?
 
Quote: Take the MPA or the recording industry, for instance. They find that their services as middle-men are under attack. Artists could sell and distribute their works (and are doing so) over the internet, taking a much bigger % chunk of sales for themselves. With that in mind, a 'cd' need not cost $14 - $30 .. try $5, and who would not buy it at that price?

Thus when the recording industry uses the excuse that pirating content is hurting the artists, they are double hypocrytes: they themselves hurt the artists with the % they take, and permiate the fog surrounding security of self-distribution. End Quote:

Well put...it aint the artist who gets hurt...its the phatcat middlemen...the artist cant just dial up the huge legal department and say..."Sue Napster, or Kazaa , or who-ever it may be.

I would rather spend my $5 dollars on the artists website (as a donation in exchange for their SELF-PRODUCED work), than plump down $30 for the record companies impression of what that artist should sound like, at my local record shop.

Knowing full well, that the artist would get the whole $5, instead of getting a couple of bucks (if they are lucky) for prostituting themselves to large conglomerates who shaft their artists every step of the journey.
 
Take this case in point: Microsoft released Windows XP Pro in New Zealand at $800 +, included was their very controversial "Product Activation". The hackerz and crackerz went on a frenzy, making serial crack progs and releasing serial numbers. People with cd-burners went into overdrive making a copy for friends, family, their second PC etc.

WHY?

Coz, MS, in their infinite wisdom, decided to prevent piracy, they
over-priced it and tried in vain to protect it. Sure, they spent billions developing the technologies contain within it, but their fatal flaw (in my eyes) was making it so darn expensive.

No software is worth that much, no one wants to pay that for it, so, it gets pirated in huge numbers.

Now, if MS sold it for $150, they would make just as much money (their core reason for being in business) because people would have bought it, not downloaded or burnt a copy. I would have no objection to buying it myself at that price, but there is no way in hell, I would spend, or justify spending $800 on it.

Why cant the record companies, movie studios, games creators, and dvd makers try the same thing? You will still get illegal copying, but if the product is more affordable, more will buy it, and they will probably make more money from it.

Just my opinion...and no..I dont own XP and never will.
 
Draco said:

No software is worth that much, no one wants to pay that for it, so, it gets pirated in huge numbers.

2002 Ferrari 360 Modena Spider F1
Price: $170,779. usd

Worth it? Probably not.

So the answer is to steal one?

I don't like MS products...they are like GM autos, average at best and de-bugged by their buyers.

But I'm not about to steal one because of their low quality.

The hacker/cracker information wants to be free argument doesn't hold water and never did.

Lance
 
Read again Lance, I never promoted STEALING it, I promoted pricing it cheaper, and therefore, making it more available to a wider target market.

Wider target market + Realistic prices = More sales = bigger profit = more R & D money = better products.

Doesn't matter whether its a Ferrari, a Mini, a DVD or a software cd, clothing or whatever. Works right across the board, on any product.

Corporate greed gets in the way. EVERY FUCKING TIME. :mad:
 
Lance, you are forgetting one thing with your example

A Ferrari is not intellectual property.

If you could copy a Ferrari for yourself with the click of a button, is that still stealing? ;)

And I'd like to see you expound a little on what you said:
The hacker/cracker information wants to be free argument doesn't hold water and never did
I'd like to make the distinction that I explained the hacker argument in my previous post. If you disagree with it, I'd like to see your reasoning on the subject.
 
Quote: Shareware, a very abused idea on both sides, is still a great idea. Why shouldn't music or film be treated the same? End Quote:

Yeah, I agree with the shareware issue. Its a great way for struggling developers to get ther stuff out into the market, and for end-users to "try before they buy" without having to plunk down large wads of cash for an inferior product or something that is not exactly whats required for their purpose.

What I disagree with is the major players, making huge bundles of money, while paying their developers minimum wage, and reaping all the cream off the top. There is no need for a program to be $2500, no matter what it does. (Example Adobe Photoshop 6..reatils in NZ for that)

It's no wonder you can find it on any warez site. Then they release Adobe Photoshop Elements (geared towards the home-user). But its still $250, which is way too much. The average home user isn't going to spend that much on a program he/she might use once a month to tidy up a few digital photos of Grandma or the kids birthday party.

Now, Windows, (LOL) In my opinion it should be free. A PC is just a box of circuits, cards and chips. Without an OS its useless, a paperwieght. Would you buy a car without the steering colunm and dashboard? NO.

MS and Intel have royalty agreements, they are making more than enough money from each other sales. So why not trim back the prices? It would give them a better name in the market place. Most people slag them off, but I never will. I make my living from the foibles of Windows (I'm a PC Tech). I enjoy their less than fine products. They keep me in bread, coffee and cigs. LOL

Napster, Kazaa and many other P-to-P file sharing services will always survive, as long as there are GREEDY Coporations. No matter how many law suits come and go, file sharing will always survive, its human nature. The legal eagles said it would die when Napster got closed down, tooled up and re-gigged as a "buy now" music site. Look what happened. More sprung up to take its place, almost overnight. Warez sites have been around since the birth of the Net, no-ones trying to shut them down, they just move servers and its back up tomorrow.

You cannot stop it. They tried, it failed. OK, they need to take a hard look at themselves and their business models and evolve. The way of selling music worked ok in the pre-internet era. But it wont work now.

My kudos go to the performers and the artists who put their music and their work out onto the net to gain new listeners.
Good on them, I say. It shows innovation and forward thinking.
It shows that there is hope for the music industry after-all, as long as someone can take charge and get the formula right.
My money is better off in the hands of the artist, so she/he can buy more sheets for his music, or new strings for her/his guitar, to create more of what I want. Their music. Why should I invest my hard-earned dollars in the record executives new BMW? Thats not helping the artist one bit...is it?
 
I've got thousands of cd's worth of music I never bought, but downloaded from the usenet. Programs, too.

Hah.
 
Originally posted by unclej
. . . as for companies like napster and others i've always made my position clear. i think that they are thieves. you can rationalize all you want. i've hear that having that many people exposed to you music will enhance sales. bullshit. if that many people can get your music for free they will. . .
First, the author sounds like a collectivist in that he presumes that intellectual property belongs to that vague, ambiguous entity, the public.

I agree that what you create, having been produced by your own efforts is yours to dispose of as you please. If property rights don't apply to intellectual property, then they can't rationally be applied to any kind of property.

With Naptser, I have a slightly different take which is simlar to Laurel's with one addition. Napster is not stealing anything. It is a connection medium that permits one person to retrieve a copy of a song bought (or pirated) by another.

There was a Supreme Court decision many years ago to the effect that making a copy of a tape/record/LP for/from a friend was not a form of theft that could be practically enforced, thus they opened the door to me buying a tape or CD and making a copy for my kid, my neighbor, you or some other buddy(ies) next door.

All Napster did was extend that neighborhood worldwide. On that basis, I can't see how Napster ever lost the suit against them since the Supreme Court decision was precedent in their favor.
 
money talks

I can't see how Napster ever lost the suit against them since the Supreme Court decision was precedent in their favor

how did OJ not get convicted? ;) Same way.
 
Napster got busted not for file sharing..but for keeping copies of copyright materials on their own servers to ease the strain on their network. They got caught with millions of songs. All of them in breach of the RECORD COMPANIES copyrights, thats why Sony, EMI etc filed suit.

It wasn't to protect their artists, but to protect their OWN bottom line.
 
What if books were posted on the web as soon as they came out. Stephen King's latest, you can buy it, if you want a bound copy, or you can download it, and read it on your screen.

Would King continue to write if he made no money at it?

I think what Napster did was wrong. Some how, some way, they could have done what they did and insured that the artists made their share. Make us buy a yearly license or what ever it is that radio stations do. Then give the $ to those who created it.

I agree with a lot of the arguments above me, for and against. I can only state how I personally feel.

Something just doesn't feel right about being able to take what I want, when I know that ordinarily it would cost money for me to have.
 
I think artists and thinkers should be rewarded for what they do. But here is an irony:

If the unregulated distribution of their work on the internet (or even the duplication of early works beyond the internet) resulted in their future wealth and fame, few would be bitching. The ones who are bitching are the ones who are griping over money.

It's got nothing to do with anything else. And most of them are doing very well in spite of all of the stealing that is going on.

I agree with the writer who likes it to the war on drugs. Besides, some of these people make enough money off of just endorsements and what not to make them very well off compared to the rest of us.

I would love it if a poem or song or drawing of mine became famous enough for me to just be famous. I would convert the intangible capital into something tangible.

My 15 nanoseconds of fame.

You can't take it with you.
 
God, I would hate it if someone did that to my "Packets and Frames."
 
haha, thanks Laurel

I love theOnion .. whenever I'm in Milwaukee or Madison I never fail to pick up a copy.

sch00lteacher: you only worry about it if you are unsure how you yourself would react. I know the way I act and here's an example:

I read Neuromancer (by William Gibson) online, and heard the audio book as well. I loved both. I went and bought the book after I read it just so WG would get some royalties. Then I went to my local library, checked out the audio book on tape, and reworked it myself into 7 cds. That's the way I treat intellectual property. I can give you other examples, but this will suffice to illustrate the point. After I find out if the work is good, I will reward the artist. If I find out it is poor, I will not. I firmly believe in this system and I'm honest enough with myself to say that if Stephen King wrote a book I liked (btw, he's already posting several chapters of new books he writes online for the feedback, fyi), I would read it first, and only if I liked it, would I then buy it.

IMHO, it's the only way to treat IP "the right way".
 
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