The Irish have revolted

[scheherazade_79]

To this day the Brettons can carry on a conversation with the Welsh and probably, the Gaelic Irish.

Welsh has more in common with Breton than Gaelic, but I don't think modern day speakers of any of the three languages would be able to carry on a conversation. Although they have the same roots, they've had too many centuries to branch out and evolve.

In fact, I think that German / Dutch / English speakers would have more luck.

 

[oggbashan]

All the three main political parties in Eire campaigned for a "Yes" vote.

Can you imagine something supported by BOTH Democrats and Republicans failing to be accepted in the US?

Og

 

[colddiesel]

"The Irishman now our contempt is beneath,
He sleeps in his boots and he lies in his teeth,
He blows up policemen or so I have heard
and blames it on Cromwell and William III."

This image of the Irish (courtesy Flanders & Swann) is the archtype most Englishmen believe in but today every Englishman of any sense will be raising a glass to the Irish voter and saying 'well done."

For too long in Europe governments of all persuasions have robbed their people of their democratic rights. This isn't the beginning of the end but it is the end of the beginning. The whole horrible bureaucratic edifice of Europe is starting to crack. The EU will be gone inside ten years.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

deleted - misread post

 

[rgraham666]

Snicker. Like the business community gives two shrill hoots in Niflheim about democracy or rights.

 

[Liar]

*shrug* It was a shitty treaty, adressing the things that the professional politicians concern themselves with and doing very little to adress the things that the EU citizens care about. The upper elite wants effective desicion making in the Council and a more empowered Parlament.

Which is not bad per se.

But the people wants a EU that is at least a little bit more transparent and cohesive than chinese buerocracy.

Before you can solidify the union and turn the EU into the US mark 2, you need to adress that, and also bring EU issues to the forefront of the debate and media attention in every member nation, sp that people see exactly what's going on in Brussles, and exactly how it is connected to them.

Or else, every treaty in that direction will be regarded with utter suspicion.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

*shrug* It was a shitty treaty, adressing the things that the professional politicians concern themselves with and doing very little to adress the things that the EU citizens care about. The upper elite wants effective desicion making in the Council and a more empowered Parlament.

Which is not bad per se.

But the people wants a EU that is at least a little bit more transparent and cohesive than chinese buerocracy.

Before you can solidify the union and turn the EU into the US mark 2, you need to adress that, and also bring EU issues to the forefront of the debate and media attention in every member nation, sp that people see exactly what's going on in Brussles, and exactly how it is connected to them.

Or else, every treaty in that direction will be regarded with utter suspicion.

The political elite, like every political elite, wants things easier for them. The people on the ground really don't care any more about the elite than the elite care about them. Why should they? Thank God for the Irish Constitution!

 

[Boxlicker101]

All the three main political parties in Eire campaigned for a "Yes" vote.

Can you imagine something supported by BOTH Democrats and Republicans failing to be accepted in the US?

Og

Yes. People just don't trust politicians. There have been some CA initiatives, such as Prop 13 a while ago, that were opposed by all mainstream politicians, but that passed anyhow. Voters are smart enough that they can see when pols are protecting their own turf or wallets.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Yes. People just don't trust politicians. There have been some CA initiatives, such as Prop 13 a while ago, that were opposed by all mainstream politicians, but that passed anyhow. Voters are smart enough that they can see when pols are protecting their own turf or wallets.

Box is spot on, Og. It is rare in the US for those not pathologically addicted to politics to vote "for" anyone. Mostly we grudgingly try to chose the lesser evil. This year is, for me, a milestone. I am not in full agreement with either candidate's policies but for the first time in 40 years I find myself choosing between two candidates I considerable honorable men. That wouldn't have been the case with Hillery, and not because she isn't a man!

 

[rengadeirishman]

Welsh has more in common with Breton than Gaelic, but I don't think modern day speakers of any of the three languages would be able to carry on a conversation. Although they have the same roots, they've had too many centuries to branch out and evolve.

In fact, I think that German / Dutch / English speakers would have more luck.

Thats true, celtic languages are divided into two categories, Goidelic and Brythonic. Brythonic is like ancient Briton, Cornish, Welsh and Breton, whereas Goidelic is Irish Gaelic, Scots Gaelic, and i believe (though don't quote me) Manx.

They are often referred to Q and P celtic, which is simply Goidelic and Brythonic respectively, using as their example the sound of the word for "son"

Goidelic- Maq

Brythonic- Map

Manx, Briton, and Cornish are all dead and Scots is practically dead, Irish is enjoying a resurgence despite its near extinction under the Penal laws of the 18th and 19th centuries. Welsh is more alive then any of the others. Breton is much more french then celtic.

If anyone still spoke cornish, they could likely understand welsh similar to the way portugese can understand spanish (or vice-versa), same goes for scots vs. irish gaelic. But the brythonic and goidelic branches are more like french and spanish then spanish or italian, to use an easy analogy. it would require great difficulty for, say a speaker of the gaelige (gaelic) to understand cymraeg (welsh) speaking in their own languages.

sorry, this stuff sort of hobby of mine.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Thats true, celtic languages are divided into two categories, Goidelic and Brythonic. Brythonic is like ancient Briton, Cornish, Welsh and Breton, whereas Goidelic is Irish Gaelic, Scots Gaelic, and i believe (though don't quote me) Manx.

They are often referred to Q and P celtic, which is simply Goidelic and Brythonic respectively, using as their example the sound of the word for "son"

Goidelic- Maq

Brythonic- Map

Manx, Briton, and Cornish are all dead and Scots is practically dead, Irish is enjoying a resurgence despite its near extinction under the Penal laws of the 18th and 19th centuries. Welsh is more alive then any of the others. Breton is much more french then celtic.

If anyone still spoke cornish, they could likely understand welsh similar to the way portugese can understand spanish (or vice-versa), same goes for scots vs. irish gaelic. But the brythonic and goidelic branches are more like french and spanish then spanish or italian, to use an easy analogy. it would require great difficulty for, say a speaker of the gaelige (gaelic) to understand cymraeg (welsh) speaking in their own languages.

sorry, this stuff sort of hobby of mine.

Wonderful things, hobbies. Make you really interesting to talk with. I knew that Breton's and Welsh could communicate but didn't know that the others were so different.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

They are often referred to Q and P celtic, which is simply Goidelic and Brythonic respectively, using as their example the sound of the word for "son"

Goidelic- Maq

Brythonic- Map

Thus, we have the young woman in Dublin surnamed MacScheherezade, and the one in Wales surnamed apScheherezade.

 

[rengadeirishman]

Thus, we have the young woman in Dublin surnamed MacScheherezade, and the one in Wales surnamed apScheherezade.

exactly

 

[ishtat]

Scots is practically dead, Irish is enjoying a resurgence despite its near extinction under the Penal laws of the 18th and 19th centuries. Welsh is more alive then any of the others. Breton is much more french then celtic.

60,000 people speak Scots gaelic as their first language. They are heavily concentrated in the Western Isles and Western Highlands. Although only 1.3 % of Scotland's population they are a majority in these districts. A lot of the primary schools on the islands teach primarily in Gaelic. In 2006 Scotlands first Gaelic speaking secondary school was established (since the notorious 1872 Scotland education Act which banned teaching in Gaelic)

In Ireland the number speaking Gaelic as a first language is slightly less than in Scotland but many many more of the Irish are familiar with it as a second language.

Having spent a couple of months in Western Scotland in 2006 there seems to be some grounds for cautious optimism.

Remember that if you travel to the northern islands of Orkney and Shetland the locals will take strong exception to any implication they are Gaelic in culture. Their culture and original language was Norse and they are very proud of that. Norse of course had wider influences, I believe that Dublin was originally a Norse settlement?

Unfortunately the same cannot be said of Breton. In 1940 the number of speakers was about 1.2 million but the French government has continued a ruthless suppression of all non French culture (in direct contravention of EU law). The result is that the number of Breton speakers has reduced to some 350,000 perhaps less.

Breton is not more French than Celtic. It is true that Bretons speaking to non Bretons will use a lot of French but when speaking to each other the French component drops right away.

I am fortunate in that I was brought up in the Welsh border country and have a fair knowledge of Welsh and can assure 'Zade that Welsh and Breton have not diverged as much as she might think and a fair element is mutually understandable.

 

[Tarakin]

I normally abstain from the political threads here, but I think the Irish have made a mistake in rejecting the treaty. Europe can only have a saying if it is united. Now there will be a union of two speeds, the nations that are willing to go further, and those standing back. We already have the euro in just 15 countries out of the 27, and other things for just some of them. I do want a strong Union, we have had enough wars in europe.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

60,000 people speak Scots gaelic as their first language. They are heavily concentrated in the Western Isles and Western Highlands. Although only 1.3 % of Scotland's population they are a majority in these districts. A lot of the primary schools on the islands teach primarily in Gaelic. In 2006 Scotlands first Gaelic speaking secondary school was established (since the notorious 1872 Scotland education Act which banned teaching in Gaelic)

In Ireland the number speaking Gaelic as a first language is slightly less than in Scotland but many many more of the Irish are familiar with it as a second language.

Having spent a couple of months in Western Scotland in 2006 there seems to be some grounds for cautious optimism.

I have mixed feelings about using the word "optimism." A language is a terrible thing to waste, but are children raised with that language being consigned to a linquistic ghetto, for purposes of keeping afloat some quaint antiquarian "hobby" with no relevance to the world we and those children live in? On the other hand our fiend Zade is amazingly cultured and at least two languages (I think she speaks another also) - Welsh as her first language certainly hasn't held her back. But she is an exceptional person (obviously, since she's an AHer ), and definitely some distance from the center of the bell curve on the high side. What about those less blessed in intelligence and talent, less able to easily make themselves fluently bilingual?

Oh, and the Vikings did found Dublin as a city, and all the other Irish towns, too. The Irish were a pastoral people, their lives centered on their cattle, and the only population centers prior to the Norse were the monastaries, some of which really were town-like in size.

I normally abstain from the political threads here, but I think the Irish have made a mistake in rejecting the treaty. Europe can only have a saying if it is united. Now there will be a union of two speeds, the nations that are willing to go further, and those standing back. We already have the euro in just 15 countries out of the 27, and other things for just some of them. I do want a strong Union, we have had enough wars in europe.

You express support for the goal, but the question is whether this treaty was a good way to get there. The criticism was that it worsened the current lack of democratic institutions and excessive rule-of-buraucracy of the current EU.

 

[Liar]

I normally abstain from the political threads here, but I think the Irish have made a mistake in rejecting the treaty. Europe can only have a saying if it is united. Now there will be a union of two speeds, the nations that are willing to go further, and those standing back. We already have the euro in just 15 countries out of the 27, and other things for just some of them. I do want a strong Union, we have had enough wars in europe.

I too want a strong union. Hell, I want a United States of Europe. With one elected parlament of legislative power, one elected government of executive power, European political parties instead of national, a common currency, a common domestic market, foreign policy and even military.

But this treaty was still a shitty one. Because it didn't deal with transparency and accountability in a way that is worthy of a modern state of liberty. That's the foundation. You can't build a working government on top if you don't have that. (or you can, but it ends up like China) So I see no problem with it being rejected. Its architects need to take a lesson in basic democracy, and then go back to the drawing board and design solid cornerstones, instead of a fancy roof.

 

[rengadeirishman]

Remember that if you travel to the northern islands of Orkney and Shetland the locals will take strong exception to any implication they are Gaelic in culture. Their culture and original language was Norse and they are very proud of that. Norse of course had wider influences, I believe that Dublin was originally a Norse settlement?

Yes, it was, but whether or not those scots from orkney and shetland are norse in culture, the language is still gaelic, whether they like it or not.

Breton is not more French than Celtic. It is true that Bretons speaking to non Bretons will use a lot of French but when speaking to each other the French component drops right away.

this seems to run contrary to what i've read, though i admit my interest is more concerned with Irish then Breton, and I have never been to Brittany or heard Breton spoke, so in this i case i shall defer.

 

[rengadeirishman]

I normally abstain from the political threads here, but I think the Irish have made a mistake in rejecting the treaty. Europe can only have a saying if it is united. Now there will be a union of two speeds, the nations that are willing to go further, and those standing back. We already have the euro in just 15 countries out of the 27, and other things for just some of them. I do want a strong Union, we have had enough wars in europe.

I disagree, handing the sovereignty they fought for centuries to obtain over to belgians who couldnt care less about them is a far bigger mistake. I understand you want peace, but you should have peace without sacrificing your sovereignty and yourself.

 

[rgraham666]

Am I misunderstanding here, renegade?

Because the centre of the EU is in Belgium it will be the Belgians running things?

How odd. I thought the EU was about Europe. Are you saying Belgians aren't Europeans? Or that the Irish aren't?

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Am I misunderstanding here, renegade?

Because the centre of the EU is in Belgium it will be the Belgians running things?

How odd. I thought the EU was about Europe. Are you saying Belgians aren't Europeans? Or that the Irish aren't?

There is a very strong opinion in the British Isles that the EU is run by a bunch of Belgian bureaucrats for a bunch of Belgian bureaucrats. These "grey functionaries" are alleged to be wonders at handing out regulations and then ignoring them in their own country while the earnest Anglo-Saxons and Gaels are forced to obey them. I've read it in all manner of publications so whether it is "true" (for a given value of Truth) it certainly is perceived to be true.

Again, the Treaty was basically designed (as far as I have read the blurbs from both sides) to make things easier for Europe's ruling elite. Why should the Irish care about them? Since WWII, Europe seems to have been run by a collection of self-declared benevolent (I give them that, they really think they have everyone's interests at heart) oligarchs. Democracy does not thrive under such conditions. The treaty needs to be started over with the concerns of the "common people" considered, not dictated by the "uncommon".

 

[rengadeirishman]

Am I misunderstanding here, renegade?

Because the centre of the EU is in Belgium it will be the Belgians running things?

How odd. I thought the EU was about Europe. Are you saying Belgians aren't Europeans? Or that the Irish aren't?

I was being facetious, but the point is, the irish won't surrender their sovereignty to other europeans, be they belgian, dutch, italian, etc. and they shouldn't. My ancestors fought too hard for too long to surrender their rights because others think they should.

 

[rengadeirishman]

There is a very strong opinion in the British Isles that the EU is run by a bunch of Belgian bureaucrats for a bunch of Belgian bureaucrats. These "grey functionaries" are alleged to be wonders at handing out regulations and then ignoring them in their own country while the earnest Anglo-Saxons and Gaels are forced to obey them. I've read it in all manner of publications so whether it is "true" (for a given value of Truth) it certainly is perceived to be true.

Again, the Treaty was basically designed (as far as I have read the blurbs from both sides) to make things easier for Europe's ruling elite. Why should the Irish care about them? Since WWII, Europe seems to have been run by a collection of self-declared benevolent (I give them that, they really think they have everyone's interests at heart) oligarchs. Democracy does not thrive under such conditions. The treaty needs to be started over with the concerns of the "common people" considered, not dictated by the "uncommon".

you said it better than me.

 

[ishtat]

No Norn

Yes, it was, but whether or not those scots from orkney and shetland are norse in culture, the language is still gaelic, whether they like it or not.

Um, actually no. The people of Orkney and Shetland do not speak Scottish Gaelic - never have. They spoke until the 1750's a language called Norn which is a derivative of old Norse. That was gradually replaced by Lowland Scots an Anglic varietal based on Middle English. I believe that some of the Scottish settlers planted in Ulster by the Englishh government also spoke lowland scots but in Ulster it was called Ullans

The Western isles were always Gaelic linguistically and culturally but Orkney and Shetland fell within the sphere of Norway until quite recently.

In recent years the Scottish government in Edinburgh has erected road signs throughout Scotland in Gaelic as well as English. When they tried to do so in Shetland the local people dug them out and tossed them in the sea to emphasise that they were not Gaelic and were not going to have it forced on them

 

[rengadeirishman]

Um, actually no. The people of Orkney and Shetland do not speak Scottish Gaelic - never have. They spoke until the 1750's a language called Norn which is a derivative of old Norse. That was gradually replaced by Lowland Scots an Anglic varietal based on Middle English. I believe that some of the Scottish settlers planted in Ulster by the Englishh government also spoke lowland scots but in Ulster it was called Ullans

The Western isles were always Gaelic linguistically and culturally but Orkney and Shetland fell within the sphere of Norway until quite recently.

In recent years the Scottish government in Edinburgh has erected road signs throughout Scotland in Gaelic as well as English. When they tried to do so in Shetland the local people dug them out and tossed them in the sea to emphasise that they were not Gaelic and were not going to have it forced on them

hmmm I've never heard that before, i shall look into it. Good for them though, its important to support your culture, whether it be gaelic, norse, or what have you.