The Irish Ban on Abortion...

[amicus]

At the bottom of the BBC America Broadcast this early morning, I noticed this news crawler as it moved across the bottom of the screen.

??? So...of course, I had to google it...

• Insertion of new Article 40.3.3:

The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

Every year thousands of Irish women avoid the constitutional provision and travel to nearby Great Britain and have abortions under the Abortion Act 1967, which are provided free of charge by the National Health Service. The number of women asking for this service and giving Irish home addresses dropped recently from about 6,600 in 2001 to 4,400 in 2009

http://www.google.com/search?q=Irel...X&ei=shUKTcn6PIe6sQO_yoyPCw&ved=0CBsQ8QkoATAA
1.

SantaTeresaNews‎: RT @CBSNews: EU human rights court declares Ireland's constitutional ban on abortion illegal:
EU Court Declares Ireland's Abortion Ban Illegal - CBS News‎ - cbsnews.com
Twitter -
3 minutes ago

3.
‎

DoorbellQueen‎: RT @rhiannonrevolts: European Court of Human Rights rules that Ireland's constitutional ban on abortion violates women's rights. http:/ ...
Twitter -
3 minutes ago

~~~

I will admit that I am unclear on the Euro's power to influence any of the 27(?) member States and their Constitutions. Perhaps someone knowledgeable will clarify?

Amicus

 

[oggbashan]

I will admit that I am unclear on the Euro's power to influence any of the 27(?) member States and their Constitutions. Perhaps someone knowledgeable will clarify?

Amicus

The European Court of Human Rights has the power to overturn national legislation if it contravenes the European Declaration of Human Rights. It is a court of appeal.

A judgement by that court usually leads to a change in the particular National law but not necessarily what the Court, or the individual or group bringing the case wants - the country's government may just amend the law so it complies with the Human Rights declaration.

In US terms, think of an appeal from state or federal law to the Supreme Court, but the European Court of Human Rights is much more limited and only looks at the Human Rights issues.

While some of its judgements are welcome, there are many that are not. Sometimes it seems more concerned with the Human Rights of criminals and illegal immigrants, than with the rights of the victims of crime and the rights of legitimate citizens. It remains a controversial institution.

This gives a link to details of the particular case.

This is the text of the European convention

Og

 

[amicus]

Thanks, Ogg...so the European Court of Human Rights is a toothless Tiger, in essence?

You might offer your opinion on the National Health service providing free abortions to Irish women, or, if you would, your position on the issue. I am and always have been a pro life advocate, holding that human life begins at the instant of conception...just to clarify.

Amicus

 

[oggbashan]

Thanks, Ogg...so the European Court of Human Rights is a toothless Tiger, in essence?

You might offer your opinion on the National Health service providing free abortions to Irish women, or, if you would, your position on the issue. I am and always have been a pro life advocate, holding that human life begins at the instant of conception...just to clarify.

Amicus

I have added a couple of links to my post above.

The Court is far from being toothless, but governments can change their laws to nullify its rulings - but cannot affect the particular case.

The women PAID for their abortions and weren't given them free under the NHS. If there had been, as in the third case, a threat to the life or health of the mother, then the NHS would treat her free.

Irish citizens, since Ireland became independent, have had rights to reside in the UK and to be treated as UK citizens. Those rights apply to Ireland only.

Subsequently, since the UK joined the European Union, people from the EU have rights to move freely between countries of the Union. That doesn't change the special rights of the Irish.

Og

 

[amicus]

I have added a couple of links to my post above.

The Court is far from being toothless, but governments can change their laws to nullify its rulings - but cannot affect the particular case.

The women PAID for their abortions and weren't given them free under the NHS. If there had been, as in the third case, a threat to the life or health of the mother, then the NHS would treat her free.

Irish citizens, since Ireland became independent, have had rights to reside in the UK and to be treated as UK citizens. Those rights apply to Ireland only.

Subsequently, since the UK joined the European Union, people from the EU have rights to move freely between countries of the Union. That doesn't change the special rights of the Irish.
Og

~~~
I followed your links...stopped reading the rather large second one when I ran across the following:

Article 12

Right to marry

Men and women of marriageable age have the right to marry and to found a family, according to the national laws

So I went on searching as my initial Post contradicted your claim that Irish women PAID for their abortions through the NHS.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-to-come-to-UK-for-free-abortions-on-NHS.html

By Matthew Day in Warsaw 7:30AM GMT 15 Mar 2010

Posters and flyers picture a woman in her underwear with the words "My Choice" scrawled across her stomach in English. Around her is the information "plane ticket to England: special offer 300 zloty", and "abortion in a public clinic: 0 zloty".

At the foot of the poster is the slogan: "For everything you pay less than an underground abortion in Poland".

http://www*****news.com/2010/05/25/int-1553/

Among under-15s(15 years of age, my bold), there were 1,047 abortions (down from 1,097 in 2008), and 136 were done on girls under 14 and 911 done on 14-year-olds. Among all under-16s, there were 3,823 abortions (down from 4,113 in 2008) and 17,916 among under-18s (down from 19,387 in 2008).

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/woman/health/health/article2037352.ece

TEN thousand Polish women came to Britain for NHS abortions last year.

The practice has cost the service a total of more than £10MILLION.

Terminations are illegal in Poland, so the women find temporary work here to get a National Insurance number, register with a GP then have the op or an abortion pill.

One London doctor who asked not to be named said: "As long as they get an NHS number, they haven't got a problem."

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/163198/Now-Poles-get-free-abortions-on-NHS

Critics warn that Britain is at risk of becoming the abortion capital of Europe.
A Polish source said yesterday that thousands of Polish women already flee the strict Roman Catholic country’s anti-abortion laws every year to undergo the procedure on the NHS.

~~~

I scanned dozens more articles and came away as confused as I was when you contradicted the statement I first quoted.

There must be some reason that the Irish situation merited notice on USA and BBC broadcasts this morning; there is something clandestine going on behind the scenes and I am truly curious to discover just what it is.

Amicus

 

[oggbashan]

The problem is that IF an EU citizen works in the UK, which they have the right to do, they then become eligible for free NHS treatment.

They have to have a National Insurance number, which their employer will obtain for them, even if they are a temporary worker employed for a very short time, and with that number they can get NHS treatment.

Of course, the system can be, and is, abused. A pregnant woman who wants an abortion, and cannot get it in her own country, travels to the UK, works for a week or so, and then goes to a doctor wanting an abortion. The 'work' might be nominal instead of actual and arranged before she arrives. The doctor can't turn her down because she IS covered by the NHS.

The doctor can turn her down if he/she thinks the reason for the abortion is insufficient. However any woman prepared to travel across Europe to the UK is usually very determined to proceed and would have what a doctor would consider as valid reasons for the abortion, otherwise she wouldn't have taken such a drastic step.

If I travel to any other EU country, I carry a card that entitles me to medical treatment on the same basis as a citizen of the country I'm visiting. A Polish woman carrying such a card would be entitled to an abortion in the UK but would probably have paid taxes or medical insurance in Poland to get the card. It is a reciprocal arrangement across the EU - but I have private medical cover in my travel insurance as well because in some countries the medical treatment the local is entitled to is very basic.

In terms of NHS funding, ten million pounds is a tiny sum. There might be mechanisms for reclaiming that money from the Polish government. I don't know.

I'm not particularly offended by the idea that a tiny amount of my taxes pays for abortions that women can't have in their own EU country. I would prefer that they didn't have to travel to the UK, but the governments of Ireland and Poland are influenced by the Roman Catholic Church on abortion legislation.

Og

 

[oggbashan]

Amicus,

I have looked at the detailed judgement on these three cases.

It seems that all 3 women were treated in Private Clinics, not under the NHS. How that treatment was paid for is not stated except for Woman A, who raised the money from a high-interest money-lender.

There are private clinics in London that provide FREE abortions, paid for by charitable donations. It is possible that at least one of the women was treated for free but it is not possible to prove that from the documents. The identities of the three women are protected.

What the newspaper reports have done, is take the cases of these three women, who were not paid for by the NHS, and then write about abortions of foreign nationals that were paid for by the NHS, leaving the readers and other papers quoting the reports to assume that these three were also funded by the NHS.

However, if a woman, residing in Ireland or Poland, has a medical card similar to mine that provides reciprocal cover in the UK, then she will have PAID in her own country for that medical cover, either through taxes, through a mutual organisation, or through insurance. Once in the UK, even as a tourist, she is entitled to the services of the NHS, including abortion. That isn't illegal. It might be of dubious morality but in a choice between a rock and a hard place in their own country, I can't bring myself to condemn their choice to come to the UK.

Og

Edited for PS.

I've just checked with some private clinic websites in the UK. They offer specially reduced rates for women from Ireland.