The "insurrectionary theory" of the Second Amendment is nonsense

KingOrfeo

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Every time there's a guns-related thread, it seems, someone will post something to the effect that the purpose, or a purpose, of the Second Amendment is to allow the people to have guns to "keep the government honest," or to enable the people to resist a tyrannical government with armed force if necessary, or words to that effect. This is sometimes called the "insurrectionary theory" of the 2nd Amendment.

This is nonsense. That notion certainly was in the air at the time the Bill of Rights was adopted, but it never found its way into the Constitution. The original text of the Constitution expressly authorizes the POTUS to command all militia, and insurrection is a thing neither protected nor tolerated -- it is, rather, a circumstance where the right of habeas corpus may be suspended (though whether by the POTUS or Congress is left unclear; Lincoln asserted the power and got away with it, at any rate). Nothing in the 2nd Amendment changes any of that one iota; if it were meant to, it would say so explicitly. The "well regulated militia" clearly is conceived as an arm of government (whether state or federal), not as a countervailing popular force against government (whether state or federal). The Declaration of Independence was a revolutionary document -- revolutions are illegal by definition, so it had to appeal to natural-law concepts. But the Constitution was a legal document, the fundamental law of a new government intended to last forever, and, as we all know, not a suicide pact. As for The Federalist, I know of no paper that so much as mentions the right to bear arms (or revolt). (IIRC, Publius did not even approve of the notion of adding a BoR to the Constitution.)

An argument could be made that the purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to allow the states to arm their own militias to be prepared to resist the federal government if necessary; but that cannot be squared with the Supremacy Clause or anything else in the Constitution, and I would say the test case of Grant v. Lee (decision rendered at Appomattox Courthouse, April 9, 1865) renders that line of argument a nullity.

A a stronger argument could be made that the purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to allow the slave states to arm their own militias to be prepared to resist a slave revolt. Less said of that the better.

The only reason there's anything in the BoR about the militia at all is because many Americans at the time had a fear (irrational in hindsight, but rational based on their recent experiences with the Redcoats) of a large standing army as a potential threat to domestic liberty. The "well regulated militia" clause of the 2nd Amendment amounts to, not an actual constitutional requirement, but a general statement of intent, that American military defense will be primarily militia-based. It didn't work out that way -- every war we've fought since independence was fought mainly by the regular federal armed forces; and there's nothing unconstitutional about that, and nothing unwise about it in military-strategic terms, and, apart from the expense, we have never had any real reason to regret it. American federal armed forces never in our history have threatened a coup or questioned their subordination to civil government; and the only time the government ever has used them as a domestic instrument of rule was in the very rare and exceptional case of Reconstruction, where it was absolutely necessary.
 
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The Second Amendment doesn't say anything about bullets. When it was written, they hadn't been invented yet. "Arms" at the time meant hand weapons like swords, bows & arrows, slingshots and muzzle-loading guns. That was all.
 
Every time there's a guns-related thread, it seems, someone will post something to the effect that the purpose, or a purpose, of the Second Amendment is to allow the people to have guns to "keep the government honest," or to enable the people to resist a tyrannical government with armed force if necessary, or words to that effect. This is sometimes called the "insurrectionary theory" of the 2nd Amendment.

This is nonsense. That notion certainly was in the air at the time the Bill of Rights was adopted, but it never found its way into the Constitution. The original text of the Constitution expressly authorizes the POTUS to command all militia, and insurrection is a thing neither protected nor tolerated -- it is, rather, a circumstance where the right of habeas corpus may be suspended (though whether by the POTUS or Congress is left unclear; Lincoln asserted the power and got away with it, at any rate). Nothing in the 2nd Amendment changes any of that one iota; if it were meant to, it would say so explicitly. The "well regulated militia" clearly is conceived as an arm of government (whether state or federal), not as a countervailing popular force against government (whether state or federal). The Declaration of Independence was a revolutionary document -- revolutions are illegal by definition, so it had to appeal to natural-law concepts. But the Constitution was a legal document, the fundamental law of a new government intended to last forever, and, as we all know, not a suicide pact. As for The Federalist, I know of no paper that so much as mentions the right to bear arms (or revolt). (IIRC, Publius did not even approve of the notion of adding a BoR to the Constitution.)

An argument could be made that the purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to allow the states to arm their own militias to be prepared to resist the federal government if necessary; but that cannot be squared with the Supremacy Clause or anything else in the Constitution, and I would say the test case of Grant v. Lee (decision rendered at Appomattox Courthouse, April 9, 1865) renders that line of argument a nullity.

A a stronger argument could be made that the purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to allow the slave states to arm their own militias to be prepared to resist a slave revolt. Less said of that the better.

The only reason there's anything in the BoR about the militia at all is because many Americans at the time had a fear (irrational in hindsight, but rational based on their recent experiences with the Redcoats) of a large standing army as a potential threat to domestic liberty. The "well regulated militia" clause of the 2nd Amendment amounts to, not an actual constitutional requirement, but a general statement of intent, that American military defense will be primarily militia-based. It didn't work out that way -- every war we've fought since independence was fought mainly by the regular federal armed forces; and there's nothing unconstitutional about that, and nothing unwise about it in military-strategic terms, and, apart from the expense, we have never had any real reason to regret it. American federal armed forces never in our history have threatened a coup or questioned their subordination to civil government; and the only time the government ever has used them as a domestic instrument of rule was in the very rare and exceptional case of Reconstruction, where it was absolutely necessary.

And youre fulla shit.

EVERY WHITE MALE tween the ages of 18-45 were militia subject to service at the pleasure of the several district militia commanders whom voters elected. The President could draft militia for Federal service, and did, but militia per se were armed civilians obligated to furnish guns and sundry accouterments at muster.

Males must register for Federal draft when theyre 18, its their entry into the militia.
 
I disagree.

The colonies had been disarmed to a large extent and militias had to be formed with whatever was available and whatever they could beg, borrow or steal to run a guerilla campaign.

That's why the founding fathers, who had just experienced what happens when a government disarms the populace, said "Yeah, don't do that either!"

It isn't a difficult concept and it isn't about the people being rowdy. It is about a government ensuring that the people can't be rowdy.
 
Help me understand ... how did u get to be so fucking stupid!





Every time there's a guns-related thread, it seems, someone will post something to the effect that the purpose, or a purpose, of the Second Amendment is to allow the people to have guns to "keep the government honest," or to enable the people to resist a tyrannical government with armed force if necessary, or words to that effect. This is sometimes called the "insurrectionary theory" of the 2nd Amendment.

This is nonsense. That notion certainly was in the air at the time the Bill of Rights was adopted, but it never found its way into the Constitution. The original text of the Constitution expressly authorizes the POTUS to command all militia, and insurrection is a thing neither protected nor tolerated -- it is, rather, a circumstance where the right of habeas corpus may be suspended (though whether by the POTUS or Congress is left unclear; Lincoln asserted the power and got away with it, at any rate). Nothing in the 2nd Amendment changes any of that one iota; if it were meant to, it would say so explicitly. The "well regulated militia" clearly is conceived as an arm of government (whether state or federal), not as a countervailing popular force against government (whether state or federal). The Declaration of Independence was a revolutionary document -- revolutions are illegal by definition, so it had to appeal to natural-law concepts. But the Constitution was a legal document, the fundamental law of a new government intended to last forever, and, as we all know, not a suicide pact. As for The Federalist, I know of no paper that so much as mentions the right to bear arms (or revolt). (IIRC, Publius did not even approve of the notion of adding a BoR to the Constitution.)

An argument could be made that the purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to allow the states to arm their own militias to be prepared to resist the federal government if necessary; but that cannot be squared with the Supremacy Clause or anything else in the Constitution, and I would say the test case of Grant v. Lee (decision rendered at Appomattox Courthouse, April 9, 1865) renders that line of argument a nullity.

A a stronger argument could be made that the purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to allow the slave states to arm their own militias to be prepared to resist a slave revolt. Less said of that the better.

The only reason there's anything in the BoR about the militia at all is because many Americans at the time had a fear (irrational in hindsight, but rational based on their recent experiences with the Redcoats) of a large standing army as a potential threat to domestic liberty. The "well regulated militia" clause of the 2nd Amendment amounts to, not an actual constitutional requirement, but a general statement of intent, that American military defense will be primarily militia-based. It didn't work out that way -- every war we've fought since independence was fought mainly by the regular federal armed forces; and there's nothing unconstitutional about that, and nothing unwise about it in military-strategic terms, and, apart from the expense, we have never had any real reason to regret it. American federal armed forces never in our history have threatened a coup or questioned their subordination to civil government; and the only time the government ever has used them as a domestic instrument of rule was in the very rare and exceptional case of Reconstruction, where it was absolutely necessary.
 
EVERY WHITE MALE tween the ages of 18-45 were militia subject to service at the pleasure of the several district militia commanders whom voters elected.

That only dates from 1792. After the Bill of Rights was ratified. And, in any case, it in no way contradicts my thesis: The militia were never intended for any insurrectionary purpose and the 2nd Amendment was never intended to facilitate insurrection.
 
I disagree.

The colonies had been disarmed to a large extent and militias had to be formed with whatever was available and whatever they could beg, borrow or steal to run a guerilla campaign.

That's why the founding fathers, who had just experienced what happens when a government disarms the populace, said "Yeah, don't do that either!"

If the 2nd Amendment meant that, it would say so, which it doesn't. The amendment speaks only of the security of a free state, which includes security against insurrection.

BTW and N.B.: The Bill of Rights was not the work of the Founding Fathers (in the sense of Constitutional-Convention delegates), it was demanded by the Anti-Federalists.
 
If the 2nd Amendment meant that, it would say so, which it doesn't. The amendment speaks only of the security of a free state, which includes security against insurrection.

BTW and N.B.: The Bill of Rights was not the work of the Founding Fathers (in the sense of Constitutional-Convention delegates), it was demanded by the Anti-Federalists.

That isn't the context and that isn't an issue anymore, and there isn't enough social reason to disarm the populace. You could prove to me that the founding fathers didn't want anything stronger than a salt shaker in my hand. You could prove that was intended to apply to a female 200 years later. You could say that's I should be disarmed because stupid people shoot others and commit crime.

I would still disagree.

History happened, although this is a precedent of law, it's been played out.

I want better regulation on firearms, more education and that's what's on the table for me today. Not that the founding fathers clearly couldn't predict the future or frame it in terms that make the right thing obvious to us today.

The constitution really isn't as relevant unless you want to make all guns go away, and you can't do that.
 
That isn't the context and that isn't an issue anymore, and there isn't enough social reason to disarm the populace.

I'm not suggesting there is. I'm simply saying that being armed for the purpose of fighting the police or the Army is not a constitutional right. That might have some value to you, it might even have some defensible value in general, that's another debate; but it is not what the Second Amendment is for.
 
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I'm not suggesting their is. I'm simply saying that being armed for the purpose of fighting the police or the Army is not a constitutional right.

There's that thing about rights not being infringed, so yeah, it kinda is.
 
Every time there's a guns-related thread, it seems, someone will post something to the effect that the purpose, or a purpose, of the Second Amendment is to allow the people to have guns to "keep the government honest," or to enable the people to resist a tyrannical government with armed force if necessary, or words to that effect. This is sometimes called the "insurrectionary theory" of the 2nd Amendment.

This is nonsense. That notion certainly was in the air at the time the Bill of Rights was adopted, but it never found its way into the Constitution. The original text of the Constitution expressly authorizes the POTUS to command all militia, and insurrection is a thing neither protected nor tolerated -- it is, rather, a circumstance where the right of habeas corpus may be suspended (though whether by the POTUS or Congress is left unclear; Lincoln asserted the power and got away with it, at any rate). Nothing in the 2nd Amendment changes any of that one iota; if it were meant to, it would say so explicitly. The "well regulated militia" clearly is conceived as an arm of government (whether state or federal), not as a countervailing popular force against government (whether state or federal). The Declaration of Independence was a revolutionary document -- revolutions are illegal by definition, so it had to appeal to natural-law concepts. But the Constitution was a legal document, the fundamental law of a new government intended to last forever, and, as we all know, not a suicide pact. As for The Federalist, I know of no paper that so much as mentions the right to bear arms (or revolt). (IIRC, Publius did not even approve of the notion of adding a BoR to the Constitution.)

An argument could be made that the purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to allow the states to arm their own militias to be prepared to resist the federal government if necessary; but that cannot be squared with the Supremacy Clause or anything else in the Constitution, and I would say the test case of Grant v. Lee (decision rendered at Appomattox Courthouse, April 9, 1865) renders that line of argument a nullity.

A a stronger argument could be made that the purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to allow the slave states to arm their own militias to be prepared to resist a slave revolt. Less said of that the better.

The only reason there's anything in the BoR about the militia at all is because many Americans at the time had a fear (irrational in hindsight, but rational based on their recent experiences with the Redcoats) of a large standing army as a potential threat to domestic liberty. The "well regulated militia" clause of the 2nd Amendment amounts to, not an actual constitutional requirement, but a general statement of intent, that American military defense will be primarily militia-based. It didn't work out that way -- every war we've fought since independence was fought mainly by the regular federal armed forces; and there's nothing unconstitutional about that, and nothing unwise about it in military-strategic terms, and, apart from the expense, we have never had any real reason to regret it. American federal armed forces never in our history have threatened a coup or questioned their subordination to civil government; and the only time the government ever has used them as a domestic instrument of rule was in the very rare and exceptional case of Reconstruction, where it was absolutely necessary.

I truly hope you have not reproduced.
 
Every time there's a guns-related thread, it seems, someone will post something to the effect that the purpose, or a purpose, of the Second Amendment is to allow the people to have guns to "keep the government honest," or to enable the people to resist a tyrannical government with armed force if necessary, or words to that effect. This is sometimes called the "insurrectionary theory" of the 2nd Amendment.

This is nonsense. That notion certainly was in the air at the time the Bill of Rights was adopted, but it never found its way into the Constitution. The original text of the Constitution expressly authorizes the POTUS to command all militia, and insurrection is a thing neither protected nor tolerated -- it is, rather, a circumstance where the right of habeas corpus may be suspended (though whether by the POTUS or Congress is left unclear; Lincoln asserted the power and got away with it, at any rate). Nothing in the 2nd Amendment changes any of that one iota; if it were meant to, it would say so explicitly. The "well regulated militia" clearly is conceived as an arm of government (whether state or federal), not as a countervailing popular force against government (whether state or federal). The Declaration of Independence was a revolutionary document -- revolutions are illegal by definition, so it had to appeal to natural-law concepts. But the Constitution was a legal document, the fundamental law of a new government intended to last forever, and, as we all know, not a suicide pact. As for The Federalist, I know of no paper that so much as mentions the right to bear arms (or revolt). (IIRC, Publius did not even approve of the notion of adding a BoR to the Constitution.)

An argument could be made that the purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to allow the states to arm their own militias to be prepared to resist the federal government if necessary; but that cannot be squared with the Supremacy Clause or anything else in the Constitution, and I would say the test case of Grant v. Lee (decision rendered at Appomattox Courthouse, April 9, 1865) renders that line of argument a nullity.

A a stronger argument could be made that the purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to allow the slave states to arm their own militias to be prepared to resist a slave revolt. Less said of that the better.

The only reason there's anything in the BoR about the militia at all is because many Americans at the time had a fear (irrational in hindsight, but rational based on their recent experiences with the Redcoats) of a large standing army as a potential threat to domestic liberty. The "well regulated militia" clause of the 2nd Amendment amounts to, not an actual constitutional requirement, but a general statement of intent, that American military defense will be primarily militia-based. It didn't work out that way -- every war we've fought since independence was fought mainly by the regular federal armed forces; and there's nothing unconstitutional about that, and nothing unwise about it in military-strategic terms, and, apart from the expense, we have never had any real reason to regret it. American federal armed forces never in our history have threatened a coup or questioned their subordination to civil government; and the only time the government ever has used them as a domestic instrument of rule was in the very rare and exceptional case of Reconstruction, where it was absolutely necessary.

Is there a particular reason for bringing this up now?
 
Every time there's a guns-related thread, it seems, someone will post something to the effect that the purpose, or a purpose, of the Second Amendment is to allow the people to have guns to "keep the government honest," or to enable the people to resist a tyrannical government with armed force if necessary, or words to that effect. This is sometimes called the "insurrectionary theory" of the 2nd Amendment.
Go away.

Just go to another country before I shoot you in the face.

I get so frustrated with people that insist on being stupid...
 
Is there a particular reason for bringing this up now?

There was a mass shooting recently. Such always inspire gun-related threads and the "insurrectionary theory" in some form or another always seems to come up in them. I'm simply pre-empting the insurrectionists on this point -- spiking their guns.
 
I'm not suggesting there is. I'm simply saying that being armed for the purpose of fighting the police or the Army is not a constitutional right. That might have some value to you, it might even have some defensible value in general, that's another debate; but it is not what the Second Amendment is for.

It could be under the right circumstances.

Depends on the actions of the police and or the army now doesn't it?

Just because it doesn't explicitly say/outline their use for those reasons doesn't mean the couldn't be used as such and still be within the letter of the law.
:cool:
 
Depends on the actions of the police and or the army now doesn't it?:cool:

No, it doesn't; that is irrelevant to constitutional interpretation.

Just because it doesn't explicitly say/outline their use for those reasons doesn't mean the couldn't be used as such and still be within the letter of the law.
:cool:

No. Keeping guns with that purpose in mind might be within the letter of the law, but there are no circumstances ever under which insurrection is within the letter of the law.
 
C'mon, KingOrfeo... fuck up my shit today.

Oh, but don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

It's not even noon here, yet...
 
This country is no less mine than yours, and I will stay here and work to change it, and you can shoot yourself in the face. Today, please.

Why work to change something that was never meant to be into something that already exist?? Just go to the EU bro....your paradise awaits.
 
There's that thing about rights not being infringed, so yeah, it kinda is.

First, we've been over this. Your rights were infringed the second the government said you couldn't own WMDs after that we're just talking about degrees.

Second, your rights are precisely what the government says they are. Nothing more and nothing less.
 
First, we've been over this. Your rights were infringed the second the government said you couldn't own WMDs after that we're just talking about degrees.

Second, your rights are precisely what the government says they are. Nothing more and nothing less.

We have a coup every four years. I'm not worried.
 
No, it doesn't; that is irrelevant to constitutional interpretation.

No it's not.

IF the police and military start violating peoples constitutional rights it is our civic duty to shut that force the fuck down.

No. Keeping guns with that purpose in mind might be within the letter of the law, but there are no circumstances ever under which insurrection is within the letter of the law.

All enemies....foreign and domestic, I'm sorry but your simply wrong. ;)
 
This country is no less mine than yours, and I will stay here and work to change it, and you can shoot yourself in the face. Today, please.
Stay here, then, and remained unarmed, and get shot.

Work to repeal the 2nd Amendment.

Die from gunfire in the attempt.

We don't care.

We're armed, and you don't fucking matter.
 
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